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philyphreak2127 · 06-28-2008, 01:49 AM

Alright guys I figured I would pose this question to you guys since I got into it with a guy over this on another site. Okay so this guy has a vitara and eagle built z6 block with a minorly home ported z6 head, turbo motor. He was pushing around 300 horsepower on 19 lbs of boost, on 550 cc injectors. I asked him what intake manifold (to which he replied y7 manifold, he had been running a y7 head until he bought a z6 head to add a little more power)he was running and mentioned a quick cheap way to wake a couple more horses would be to run to a junkyard and get a throttlebody off of a b, h, or f series motor since they will bolt onto a d-series manifold and are 60 mm rather than 55 mm. This other guy began to argue that with a properly ported manifold and throttlebody would make a 20+ horsepower gain. I responded telling him that I wasn't saying anything about the manifold and that I didn't doubt it that getting a z6 or y8 manifold and porting it properly with a bigger throttle body that he would make a 20+ horse gain but I was simply talking about how just throwing a junkyard throttle body on his setup wouldn't be a huge power gain on the stock manifold he has on the motor. So does anyone who knows a bit about the flow dynamics of a motor know about how many horsepower can be had from simply taking a throttle body from a b, h, or f-series motor and putting it on his setup? Keep in mind I am not looking for a specific number just a ball park estimate with a quick explanation as to why he would gain that. I am not asking to argue anymore but hell if I gain anywhere over 5 horsepower I will throw my f22 throttle body on my motor.

K2e2vin · 06-28-2008, 03:08 AM

If it's not port-matched, he won't see any gains. If it is, he'll probably see minor gains; but don't know about +20hp.

Reason being; the runners are still the same size and the VE of the engine doesn't change.

SLOWdelawareEG · 06-28-2008, 11:49 AM

a 5mm larger tb will make minimal gains and probably wont be noticeable. saying it will make 20hp, port matched or not, is fucking preposterous.

upgraded tb's should be on the bottom of the list in said situation(vitara+boost setup). if the bottom end's built, add fuel and boost, and retune that shit.

philyphreak2127 · 06-28-2008, 08:25 PM

well I am not arguing with the owner of the car himself but a guy who supposedly owns a flow bench. But then again obviously the guy can't read for him to understand I didn't mention the manifold. As for the owner of the car he runs low 11 second passes with this setup in a gutted ef.

Blanco · 06-28-2008, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

If it's not port-matched, he won't see any gains. If it is, he'll probably see minor gains; but don't know about +20hp.

Reason being; the runners are still the same size and the VE of the engine doesn't change.

Actually, the VE does change...just for the worse. The larger throttle body provides higher volume at the sacrifice of velocity.

INJEN78 · 06-28-2008, 09:39 PM

and b series tb dont fit on d's i already tried

the bolt holes are not spaced coreectly

Luis998 · 06-28-2008, 10:33 PM

I'd just get one of those "tornado" gizmo's that "guarantee you" fifteen horsepower for adding a piece of aluminum to your intake.

Blanco · 06-28-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INJEN78

and b series tb dont fit on d's i already tried

the bolt holes are not spaced coreectly

That's the first time I've heard that. A lot of people on D-Series.org are running B-Series TBs on their D-Series IMs.

philyphreak2127 · 06-29-2008, 09:15 AM

well would you still have a porblem with velocity when it comes to forced induction? And as far as the b-series throttle body not fitting your intake manifold that suprises me. I was under the impression that all honda 4 cylinder throttle bodies besides maybe the k-series throttle bodies swap between each other.

INJEN78 · 06-29-2008, 09:48 AM

i dunno..i tried to put the one from my b18a1 on my d16a6 mani..i thought the tps was arbage and tried swapping,,it didnt fit
bolt holes were off a little bit

Justin66 · 06-29-2008, 01:28 PM

20HP from the TB alone is questionable, but if its tuned with some good cams and port matched, bigger intake manifold and filter im sure it can be.

philyphreak2127 · 06-29-2008, 05:28 PM

But he is saying 20+ horsepower gain on a vitara/eagle built z6 block with a minorly ported z6 head with a turbo setup I don't know the turbo right off hand but I know when it was dynoed he was putting down around 300 hp on 19 psi with 550 cc injectors. The funny part is upon rereading what the guy arguing with me was saying he ended up making himself sound like a douche becuase he was essentially backing up exactly what I said about how a 60 mm throttle body from one of the bigger honda motors will not add much in the way of performance especially if he sticks with the stock manifold. I just decided it wasn't worth my time to argue with a dude who can't even fully comprehend what he reads when he reads it. With that said. I have no doubt should he replace the intake manifold with say a z6 or y8 manifold port the runners and port match even a 60 mm stock throttle body and make sure the port is done well he could potentially see 20 horses. I wouldn't doubt it especially when it is used in a forced induction setup. I also think that with 19 psi on that build he would be well off to go ahead and swap out the fuel rail and injectors with an aftermarket aem or venom fuel rail and some bigger say 750, or 1000 cc injectors along with the intake manifold, and throttle body he could potentially turn the boost back up to 25 where he was running it retune the thing and be pushing close to 400 horses. But some people are penny pinchers and don't want to spend any money.

INJEN78 · 06-29-2008, 05:33 PM

id be happy with a 300hp D...
but i dont know about the 20 horses from im,tb and bigger injectors..

philyphreak2127 · 06-29-2008, 07:05 PM

well I also mentioned turning the boost back up to 24 psi though. If I could think of what turbo he is running you would understand why I say that. His tuner is pretty good as well, and its hard to explain but if you saw the dyno sheets you would understand, his turbo is far from maxed out its just his intake manifold, throttle body, and injectors are maxed out and you can tell from his dyno graphs.

Blanco · 06-29-2008, 10:42 PM

How can you tell that his TB and IM are maxed out from a dyno when every professional engine builder in the world needs a flow bench to determine that?

Look at it like water flowing through a tube. Better yet, let's use a funnel. Does making the mouth of funnel larger get the fluid out of the other end faster or does it actually create a back up due to too high a volume? Then, why would putting a larger throttle body on an otherwise stock intake system do anything positive? It doesn't matter how hard you shove the charge in there, the engine can only use what it's able to use. TB and IM size should be matched to cam profile by using a flow bench chart for the exact head being used. If you want to just throw a bunch of parts at an engine, you'll never see any real gain. But if you take the time to properly match all of your parts then you start to see big gains. This is where things stay pretty much the same regardless of n/a or f/i.

philyphreak2127 · 06-29-2008, 10:57 PM

well its not so much that I can tell from this one dyno chart. its from repeated dyno charts after every new part and retune he does. I mean with the same setup merely changing from a stock y7 head to a ported z6 head even though the port was far from full race, he only gained around 11 horsepower. So I pretty much figure after seeing about 4 different dyno charts and multiple mods that his holset turbo is either maxed out, or he needs better air flow. And pardon me if I said the manifold and TB are maxed out I hardly think that would be possible on only a minor build like this if at all but they could be much better than they are now... Like I said its hard to explain and you probably think I am either crazy, or talking out of my butt, but after watching this build for quite a while now its relatively easy to tell he needs to upgrade the manifold, and throttle body. His torque curve is also very slow to rise to the peak. So a throttle body could help throttle response correct? Not to mention with a semi built block, ported head, but stock intake "system" so to speak and a turbo that has pushed all the way up to 24 psi and still not gone higher than 300 hp he needs to either upgrade the air flow or fuel flow to gain some more power.

INJEN78 · 06-30-2008, 10:00 AM

hes running a ginormous turbo huh??

philyphreak2127 · 06-30-2008, 07:51 PM

it is pretty big. I couldn't find the measurements of it though looked but haven't found where he had posted them. its a holset h1c if that helps. Seriously the guy has to be one of the best drivers I have ever heard of. 11.20 on only 279 hp in a gutted ef hatch. Now he is up to a little over 300 hp in the same car on less boost.

INJEN78 · 06-30-2008, 08:38 PM

his torque is slow to rise to peak due to the fact the turbo is sooo big,,takes long to get full boost..if he went smaller hed probably have better times

06-28-2008, 01:49 AM	#1
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	throttle body power gains Alright guys I figured I would pose this question to you guys since I got into it with a guy over this on another site. Okay so this guy has a vitara and eagle built z6 block with a minorly home ported z6 head, turbo motor. He was pushing around 300 horsepower on 19 lbs of boost, on 550 cc injectors. I asked him what intake manifold (to which he replied y7 manifold, he had been running a y7 head until he bought a z6 head to add a little more power)he was running and mentioned a quick cheap way to wake a couple more horses would be to run to a junkyard and get a throttlebody off of a b, h, or f series motor since they will bolt onto a d-series manifold and are 60 mm rather than 55 mm. This other guy began to argue that with a properly ported manifold and throttlebody would make a 20+ horsepower gain. I responded telling him that I wasn't saying anything about the manifold and that I didn't doubt it that getting a z6 or y8 manifold and porting it properly with a bigger throttle body that he would make a 20+ horse gain but I was simply talking about how just throwing a junkyard throttle body on his setup wouldn't be a huge power gain on the stock manifold he has on the motor. So does anyone who knows a bit about the flow dynamics of a motor know about how many horsepower can be had from simply taking a throttle body from a b, h, or f-series motor and putting it on his setup? Keep in mind I am not looking for a specific number just a ball park estimate with a quick explanation as to why he would gain that. I am not asking to argue anymore but hell if I gain anywhere over 5 horsepower I will throw my f22 throttle body on my motor. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-28-2008, 03:08 AM	#2
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 20 Posts: 4,997 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 77	If it's not port-matched, he won't see any gains. If it is, he'll probably see minor gains; but don't know about +20hp. Reason being; the runners are still the same size and the VE of the engine doesn't change. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic STD-more mods than I want to list Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

06-28-2008, 08:25 PM	#4
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	well I am not arguing with the owner of the car himself but a guy who supposedly owns a flow bench. But then again obviously the guy can't read for him to understand I didn't mention the manifold. As for the owner of the car he runs low 11 second passes with this setup in a gutted ef. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-28-2008, 09:39 PM	#6
INJEN78 ¿UnKnOwN? Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: CT(860) VT(802) Age: 19 Posts: 3,602 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 91 civic si Rep Power: 66	and b series tb dont fit on d's i already tried the bolt holes are not spaced coreectly __________________ R.I.P BEN LEE2/24/08 we love and miss you R.I.P Rex 8/18/08 coolest dog ever!!! GOOD FAST CHEAP, you can pick only two. fast and cheap isn't good good and cheap isn't fast good and fast isn't cheap

06-29-2008, 09:15 AM	#9
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	well would you still have a porblem with velocity when it comes to forced induction? And as far as the b-series throttle body not fitting your intake manifold that suprises me. I was under the impression that all honda 4 cylinder throttle bodies besides maybe the k-series throttle bodies swap between each other. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-28-2008, 11:49 AM	#3
SLOWdelawareEG my cars go fast Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: delaware Age: 26 Posts: 214 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: B16 TURBO ef hatch Rep Power: 7	a 5mm larger tb will make minimal gains and probably wont be noticeable. saying it will make 20hp, port matched or not, is fucking preposterous. upgraded tb's should be on the bottom of the list in said situation(vitara+boost setup). if the bottom end's built, add fuel and boost, and retune that shit.

06-29-2008, 09:48 AM	#10
INJEN78 ¿UnKnOwN? Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: CT(860) VT(802) Age: 19 Posts: 3,602 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 91 civic si Rep Power: 66	i dunno..i tried to put the one from my b18a1 on my d16a6 mani..i thought the tps was arbage and tried swapping,,it didnt fit bolt holes were off a little bit __________________ R.I.P BEN LEE2/24/08 we love and miss you R.I.P Rex 8/18/08 coolest dog ever!!! GOOD FAST CHEAP, you can pick only two. fast and cheap isn't good good and cheap isn't fast good and fast isn't cheap

06-29-2008, 01:28 PM	#11
Justin66 VTEC or NOTEC Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Peterborough, Ontario Age: 21 Posts: 407 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 1990 Intergra GS/XSi Rep Power: 7	20HP from the TB alone is questionable, but if its tuned with some good cams and port matched, bigger intake manifold and filter im sure it can be. __________________ 90 Integra GS/ XSi - JDM B16A SiR2 w/ full exhaust & CAI - Skunk2 stage 1 cams (not installed yet) - J1 Tranny - H & R lowering springs - Rear strut bar and front camber kit - HKS Hi-Power exhaust - Powersteering removed Sk2 Cam gears and Intake Manifold soon. My ultimate VTEC juice: - Shell Vpower 91 octane - Castrol SynTEC - Simmer for 3000rpm - VTEC should rise - Allow other car to catch up and let stand for 5 mins

06-29-2008, 05:28 PM	#12
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	But he is saying 20+ horsepower gain on a vitara/eagle built z6 block with a minorly ported z6 head with a turbo setup I don't know the turbo right off hand but I know when it was dynoed he was putting down around 300 hp on 19 psi with 550 cc injectors. The funny part is upon rereading what the guy arguing with me was saying he ended up making himself sound like a douche becuase he was essentially backing up exactly what I said about how a 60 mm throttle body from one of the bigger honda motors will not add much in the way of performance especially if he sticks with the stock manifold. I just decided it wasn't worth my time to argue with a dude who can't even fully comprehend what he reads when he reads it. With that said. I have no doubt should he replace the intake manifold with say a z6 or y8 manifold port the runners and port match even a 60 mm stock throttle body and make sure the port is done well he could potentially see 20 horses. I wouldn't doubt it especially when it is used in a forced induction setup. I also think that with 19 psi on that build he would be well off to go ahead and swap out the fuel rail and injectors with an aftermarket aem or venom fuel rail and some bigger say 750, or 1000 cc injectors along with the intake manifold, and throttle body he could potentially turn the boost back up to 25 where he was running it retune the thing and be pushing close to 400 horses. But some people are penny pinchers and don't want to spend any money. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-29-2008, 05:33 PM	#13
INJEN78 ¿UnKnOwN? Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: CT(860) VT(802) Age: 19 Posts: 3,602 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 91 civic si Rep Power: 66	id be happy with a 300hp D... but i dont know about the 20 horses from im,tb and bigger injectors.. __________________ R.I.P BEN LEE2/24/08 we love and miss you R.I.P Rex 8/18/08 coolest dog ever!!! GOOD FAST CHEAP, you can pick only two. fast and cheap isn't good good and cheap isn't fast good and fast isn't cheap

06-29-2008, 07:05 PM	#14
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	well I also mentioned turning the boost back up to 24 psi though. If I could think of what turbo he is running you would understand why I say that. His tuner is pretty good as well, and its hard to explain but if you saw the dyno sheets you would understand, his turbo is far from maxed out its just his intake manifold, throttle body, and injectors are maxed out and you can tell from his dyno graphs. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-29-2008, 10:57 PM	#16
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	well its not so much that I can tell from this one dyno chart. its from repeated dyno charts after every new part and retune he does. I mean with the same setup merely changing from a stock y7 head to a ported z6 head even though the port was far from full race, he only gained around 11 horsepower. So I pretty much figure after seeing about 4 different dyno charts and multiple mods that his holset turbo is either maxed out, or he needs better air flow. And pardon me if I said the manifold and TB are maxed out I hardly think that would be possible on only a minor build like this if at all but they could be much better than they are now... Like I said its hard to explain and you probably think I am either crazy, or talking out of my butt, but after watching this build for quite a while now its relatively easy to tell he needs to upgrade the manifold, and throttle body. His torque curve is also very slow to rise to the peak. So a throttle body could help throttle response correct? Not to mention with a semi built block, ported head, but stock intake "system" so to speak and a turbo that has pushed all the way up to 24 psi and still not gone higher than 300 hp he needs to either upgrade the air flow or fuel flow to gain some more power. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-30-2008, 10:00 AM	#17
INJEN78 ¿UnKnOwN? Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: CT(860) VT(802) Age: 19 Posts: 3,602 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 91 civic si Rep Power: 66	hes running a ginormous turbo huh?? __________________ R.I.P BEN LEE2/24/08 we love and miss you R.I.P Rex 8/18/08 coolest dog ever!!! GOOD FAST CHEAP, you can pick only two. fast and cheap isn't good good and cheap isn't fast good and fast isn't cheap

06-30-2008, 07:51 PM	#18
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 98 civic dx sedan, 80 trans am Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 16	it is pretty big. I couldn't find the measurements of it though looked but haven't found where he had posted them. its a holset h1c if that helps. Seriously the guy has to be one of the best drivers I have ever heard of. 11.20 on only 279 hp in a gutted ef hatch. Now he is up to a little over 300 hp in the same car on less boost. __________________ Parts for sale: http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trad...-parts-115446/ Build Threads: Civic: http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-eg-ek/d16y8-n-build-112401/5.html Trans Am: http://hondaswap.com/other-vehicle-discussions/1980-trans-am-build-thread-oh-yeah-its-official-149941/#post1054318

06-30-2008, 08:38 PM	#19
INJEN78 ¿UnKnOwN? Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: CT(860) VT(802) Age: 19 Posts: 3,602 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 91 civic si Rep Power: 66	his torque is slow to rise to peak due to the fact the turbo is sooo big,,takes long to get full boost..if he went smaller hed probably have better times __________________ R.I.P BEN LEE2/24/08 we love and miss you R.I.P Rex 8/18/08 coolest dog ever!!! GOOD FAST CHEAP, you can pick only two. fast and cheap isn't good good and cheap isn't fast good and fast isn't cheap

06-30-2008, 11:09 PM	#20
philyphreak2127 The name's Sam Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: morrison, co Age: 19 Posts: 1,278

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