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97hatch · 11-03-2009, 10:47 PM

ive noticed over the past week or two many members are puting down e85 saying its not worth the added cost and its no better than pump gas. these are some of my experiences with it and what i think

1. My sohc d16y7 made 265hp 247tq on a 16g at 15psi on stock internals with E85 i made 224hp 230tq on 93octane

2. My stock internal LS turbo made 387hp 346tq on E85 with a SC34 at 18lbs It bent a rod was trying for 400hp stock block. Drove it daily at 12psi and it was making 334hp 307tq

3. Friends 14:1 CRvtec P&P head cams and ITBs made 291hp on E85 dont rember Tq it was almost 2yrs ago. He still drives this car almost daily if its not raining or snowing

4. Friends Built bottom stock head 9:1 B16 with a SC34 made 387hp 303 tq at 25psi on 93octane and made 504hp 395tq at the same boost with a retune on E85

These are just a few of the cars that i have tuned and deal with all the time and know E85 has worked very well in. I know that it is not any cheeper realy than pump gas but when you look at the fact that its 105 octane and readly avilable in most places why wouldnt you want to run this.

I have allready been playing with methanol blends to run if or when E85 is no longer available. So far a 75%meth 25% 93 octane blend works great on my D16a6 on 8lbs no horible corrosion yet and it seams to make more power than e85 did havent got it on the dyno yet ive been monitoring fuel system componets for effects of the meth but i think the gas blend keeps the corrosion down

B · 11-03-2009, 11:31 PM

1) it's not readily available in most places. i've YET to see a pump for it in my life.
2) it's not cheaper, the price per gallon is, but it uses more fuel to produce the same work, plus the conversion process of removing anything rubber
3) it's corrosive and non-designed motors will have a shorter life
4) use of the fuel eats crops. crops feed us and our animals. it may make 5% more hp on your car, but i don't want to be eating $50 delmonico's.

TurboMirage · 11-03-2009, 11:37 PM

depends on who you talk to really. lots of folks in the mirage community use emanage, and have a gas and e85 tune. around here there are fairly few places that even offer it.

B, the closest pump to me is in newton.

mdpsEG · 11-04-2009, 06:53 AM

lots of people use it in south florida. unfortunately there arent any stations close to me here in palm beach or i would use it too. it does really good things for supercharged cars, helps with the heat a lot.

eg'sforlife · 11-04-2009, 11:43 AM

ive never once seen a pump for it but im not hating i would so use it if i was running a boost setup...problem is you cant drive anywhere with it unless you know where you going has an e85 station around

phyregod · 11-04-2009, 12:10 PM

Your gas mileage drops. As much as 10%. I would argue the power numbers but I'm on an iPhone right now. In
central Texas, all fuel is now 10% ethanol, which pisses me off. I don't get any say In the matter.

chestercheeto48 · 11-04-2009, 03:28 PM

E85 is pretty common around WI. My new vehicle is flex fuel but I haven't used E85 yet due to the fact that gas is still pretty competitive in price. The dealer I bought it from (salesman is a good family friend) pointed out the drop in MPG but also said that when gas was soaring last year the price of E85 more than made up for the lost milage. It's nice to have the option but I wouldn't use it unless it made sense.

eg6sir · 11-04-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phyregod

I would argue the power numbers but I'm on an iPhone right now.

well, i remember B16 using e85 in his EVO and it boosted the HP.. i'm pretty sure its boosted cars that benefit from using e85

97hatch · 11-04-2009, 05:47 PM

ok being in the mid west probaly helps on the availabilty of it. There is almost a station that has e85 at every exit off the interstate around here. ive drove as far as 300mi away and didnt even worry about not being able to find fuel.

Stille Nacht · 11-05-2009, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phyregod

Your gas mileage drops. As much as 10%. I would argue the power numbers but I'm on an iPhone right now. In
central Texas, all fuel is now 10% ethanol, which pisses me off. I don't get any say In the matter.

I work for a gas station in Central Texas. I've noticed a drop in mpgs since they started putting ethanol. It blows.

eg'sforlife · 11-09-2009, 12:53 PM

how does working in a station help you notice a fuel economy drop more than any other person

fcluddington · 11-10-2009, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stille Nacht

I work for a gas station in Central Texas. I've noticed a drop in mpgs since they started putting ethanol. It blows.

E85 an putting ethanol in gas are two different things.

K2e2vin · 11-10-2009, 08:24 AM

I've yet to see a E85 station in NC.

Otherwise, as far as power goes, I've only seen people with turbo cars see gains; mainly because it's more resistant to knocking. As far as fuel goes, if unleaded gasoline is getting better MPGs, I'll just stick to that. Our Honda fuel tanks aren't that big and one thing I like is not having to make many stops.

awptickes · 11-11-2009, 02:07 PM

There's less energy contained in 1lb of E85 vs 1lb of straight gasoline. Energy vs weight, gasoline will always win.

Do some searches, I believe I did the math on it about a couple years ago and posted about it.

I'm feeling generous today:
Tuning to AFR

97hatch · 11-11-2009, 11:07 PM

i will completly agree that e85 isnt a very good fuel for a normal every day driver. But if you have a highly modified car like many of us do and have setups that would benifet from race fuel e85 might be a good choice for you its 105 octane the alcohol provides great cooling on a turbo engine. Also when you compare E85 to 91-93 octane it dosent cost any more per mile than premium. if you look at it right now with what my local prices are its 2.59 for reg 2.84 for premium and 2.25 for E85 so in a car that averages 30mpg on gas to drive 10 miles would cost

$0.86 on 87
$0.95 on 93
$0.98 on E85 when you look at e85 vs premium it looks much beter and yes i calculated in the 30% more fuel

reikoshea · 11-12-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stille Nacht

I work for a gas station in Central Texas. I've noticed a drop in mpgs since they started putting ethanol. It blows.

Werd. Buddy of mine's dad did an experiment. His CRX in 2002 got got 54MPG (on average) recently he's been lucky to get 40. So when we went to the track he got some ethanol free 100 octane and wouldnt you know it, his car got 52 miles to the gallon that week.

Ethanol is the devil. Could you imagine what kinda mileage my s2k could get if i get 28mpg WITH ethanol. This right here should be enough reason to say 'fuck iowa, you're going to the back'. Stupid ethanol vow. Cant believe GW followed through.

97hatch · 11-12-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reikoshea

Werd. Buddy of mine's dad did an experiment. His CRX in 2002 got got 54MPG (on average) recently he's been lucky to get 40. So when we went to the track he got some ethanol free 100 octane and wouldnt you know it, his car got 52 miles to the gallon that week.

Ethanol is the devil. Could you imagine what kinda mileage my s2k could get if i get 28mpg WITH ethanol. This right here should be enough reason to say 'fuck iowa, you're going to the back'. Stupid ethanol vow. Cant believe GW followed through.

i find this hard to believe this as you wont get the same mileage on 87 as 100 due to the fact that 100 burns much slower and takes more fuel for the same amount of energy

reikoshea · 11-12-2009, 09:13 PM

believe it buddy. why do you think CRXes that once got 50-55 MPG now get 40. Its not because the engine is old its because of the gas.

awptickes · 11-13-2009, 06:49 AM

All of this is at STP:

1 US gallon of automobile grade diesel = 130,500 Btu
1 US gallon of gasoline = 115,000 Btu
1 US gallon of ethanol = 76,000 Btu

You can see which is a better fuel.

97hatch · 11-13-2009, 07:20 AM

yes gas is the better choice for a dd but if you are looking at the performance aspect of it E85 is much better. Many of the fastest race cars have been runing methanol for years and its not much diffrent than ethanol except its made from wood.

As for your 52mpg on 100octane and 87 octane. i just dont beleive it. I log my mpgs every time i fill up and ive done the regular vs premium many times and the difrence between premium and regular is 4-5mpg. its nearly imposiable to get the same mileage out of 100 as 87 because it burns so much slower there for the engine makes less power and has to work harder to move the vehicle unless you add lots of timing to compensate for the slower burning fuel. It just cant happen

awptickes · 11-13-2009, 07:49 AM

Maybe you need to read a couple books instead of driving your 14 cars.

K2e2vin · 11-13-2009, 08:49 AM

Race cars(mainly boosted vehicles) run alcohol because it allows them to run higher compressions and timing; the fastest are running mainly nitromethane.

Formula One and MotoGP, which are arguably the fastest NA machines, run off of gasoline. The trick is controlling detonation. You want peak cylinder pressures just after TDC so the fuel would need to hold off detonation until that point. A huge hint; F1 and motorcycles have small bores; which are less prone to detonation.

As far as premium fuels go, it may just be fuel quality or the slower burn rate has no effect(caused by some other variable). My brother's car responds the same as that CRX; with 87 it gets about 31-35mpg avg, and with 89/93 we managed to get 35-38mpg avg. My Civic(swapped,etc.) got 47mpg on the highway, with 93, though I've never ran the car with anything less than 93.

phyregod · 11-13-2009, 09:55 AM

Here is a news flash..

Premium fuel vs regular unleaded..

The regular is fresh, cycled constantly. The tank is filled up often. Premium fuels sit around in the storage tanks waiting for someone to use them. When they are serviced, they are only partially filled because the fuel doesn't sell as fast, leaving more room in the tank for air, which adds moisture. If you are in a rural area or small town, chances are, the premium fuel is old nasty water contaminated goop.

Something to think about when arguing these kinds of numbers.

awptickes · 11-13-2009, 10:17 AM

any fuel on a racetrack is going to be cycled often. They take better care of the tanks that hold racetrack fuels.

If you want to find good-quality high-octane fuel, go to the gas station with seperate nozzles across from a luxury car dealership, (BMW, MB, Audi, etc.) and use that station. That premium fuel doesn't sit around long.

Alternatively, you could move to europe, where it's difficult to find 87(r+m/2) fuel, or Germany, where most stations don't even sell less than 90(r+m/2) anymore.

reikoshea · 11-13-2009, 01:37 PM

thanks for the help above guys. i didnt have the raw data, i just know what i've seen between the two. I know my prelude's gas mileage tanked after the ethanol switch, but I had done so much to that car i figured i broke something.

11-03-2009, 10:47 PM	#1
97hatch ? Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anderson IN Age: 26 Posts: 1,589 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: i have 14 cars i drive my sohc turbo ef Rep Power: 34	Why are fellow honda swapers aginst E85 ive noticed over the past week or two many members are puting down e85 saying its not worth the added cost and its no better than pump gas. these are some of my experiences with it and what i think 1. My sohc d16y7 made 265hp 247tq on a 16g at 15psi on stock internals with E85 i made 224hp 230tq on 93octane 2. My stock internal LS turbo made 387hp 346tq on E85 with a SC34 at 18lbs It bent a rod was trying for 400hp stock block. Drove it daily at 12psi and it was making 334hp 307tq 3. Friends 14:1 CRvtec P&P head cams and ITBs made 291hp on E85 dont rember Tq it was almost 2yrs ago. He still drives this car almost daily if its not raining or snowing 4. Friends Built bottom stock head 9:1 B16 with a SC34 made 387hp 303 tq at 25psi on 93octane and made 504hp 395tq at the same boost with a retune on E85 These are just a few of the cars that i have tuned and deal with all the time and know E85 has worked very well in. I know that it is not any cheeper realy than pump gas but when you look at the fact that its 105 octane and readly avilable in most places why wouldnt you want to run this. I have allready been playing with methanol blends to run if or when E85 is no longer available. So far a 75%meth 25% 93 octane blend works great on my D16a6 on 8lbs no horible corrosion yet and it seams to make more power than e85 did havent got it on the dyno yet ive been monitoring fuel system componets for effects of the meth but i think the gas blend keeps the corrosion down __________________ SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

11-03-2009, 11:37 PM	#3
TurboMirage Running on two cylinders Join Date: May 2003 Location: Southbridge, MA Age: 25 Posts: 18,155 iTrader: 1 / 100% Ride: 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer RPW E5 Coupe Rep Power: 338	depends on who you talk to really. lots of folks in the mirage community use emanage, and have a gas and e85 tune. around here there are fairly few places that even offer it. B, the closest pump to me is in newton. __________________ Home of the RPW built 2000 Lancer CC Coupe. See what is done to the little Evo5. "If you don't like what I've done with my car, I will gladly refund all the money you put into it."

11-04-2009, 11:43 AM	#5
eg'sforlife Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Whiteville, NC Age: 19 Posts: 383 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 92 Civic LX Rep Power: 14	ive never once seen a pump for it but im not hating i would so use it if i was running a boost setup...problem is you cant drive anywhere with it unless you know where you going has an e85 station around __________________ \|.....Overnight.................... .....\| \|\| \|........Parts From Japan.............\|\|'\|";,___ \|_..._...____________======\|\|_\|_\|.. .,..] "(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''''\|( @)(@)****" (@)

11-04-2009, 05:47 PM	#9
97hatch ? Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anderson IN Age: 26 Posts: 1,589 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: i have 14 cars i drive my sohc turbo ef Rep Power: 34	ok being in the mid west probaly helps on the availabilty of it. There is almost a station that has e85 at every exit off the interstate around here. ive drove as far as 300mi away and didnt even worry about not being able to find fuel. __________________ SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

11-09-2009, 12:53 PM	#11
eg'sforlife Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Whiteville, NC Age: 19 Posts: 383 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 92 Civic LX Rep Power: 14	how does working in a station help you notice a fuel economy drop more than any other person __________________ \|.....Overnight.................... .....\| \|\| \|........Parts From Japan.............\|\|'\|";,___ \|_..._...____________======\|\|_\|_\|.. .,..] "(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''''\|( @)(@)****" (@)


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11-04-2009, 06:53 AM	#4
mdpsEG Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: north palm beach, FL Age: 29 Posts: 881 iTrader: 1 / 100% Ride: JRSC B20/vtec DC, Nissan Xterra SE Rep Power: 43	lots of people use it in south florida. unfortunately there arent any stations close to me here in palm beach or i would use it too. it does really good things for supercharged cars, helps with the heat a lot.

11-04-2009, 03:28 PM	#7
chestercheeto48 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: madison, WI Age: 30 Posts: 1,172 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 1996 civic dx Rep Power: 44	E85 is pretty common around WI. My new vehicle is flex fuel but I haven't used E85 yet due to the fact that gas is still pretty competitive in price. The dealer I bought it from (salesman is a good family friend) pointed out the drop in MPG but also said that when gas was soaring last year the price of E85 more than made up for the lost milage. It's nice to have the option but I wouldn't use it unless it made sense.

11-10-2009, 08:24 AM	#13
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,360 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	I've yet to see a E85 station in NC. Otherwise, as far as power goes, I've only seen people with turbo cars see gains; mainly because it's more resistant to knocking. As far as fuel goes, if unleaded gasoline is getting better MPGs, I'll just stick to that. Our Honda fuel tanks aren't that big and one thing I like is not having to make many stops. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

11-11-2009, 02:07 PM	#14
awptickes Reverend Awptickes Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bel Air, MD Age: 21 Posts: 3,953 iTrader: 6 / 100% Ride: 1999 Civic EJ9, 2009 Fit GE8, 2006 Suzuki SV650s Rep Power: 189	There's less energy contained in 1lb of E85 vs 1lb of straight gasoline. Energy vs weight, gasoline will always win. Do some searches, I believe I did the math on it about a couple years ago and posted about it. I'm feeling generous today: Tuning to AFR __________________ ☻/ DIY/Howto HID Projector retrofit /▌ / \ Last edited by awptickes; 11-11-2009 at 02:10 PM.

11-11-2009, 11:07 PM	#15
97hatch ? Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anderson IN Age: 26 Posts: 1,589 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: i have 14 cars i drive my sohc turbo ef Rep Power: 34	i will completly agree that e85 isnt a very good fuel for a normal every day driver. But if you have a highly modified car like many of us do and have setups that would benifet from race fuel e85 might be a good choice for you its 105 octane the alcohol provides great cooling on a turbo engine. Also when you compare E85 to 91-93 octane it dosent cost any more per mile than premium. if you look at it right now with what my local prices are its 2.59 for reg 2.84 for premium and 2.25 for E85 so in a car that averages 30mpg on gas to drive 10 miles would cost $0.86 on 87 $0.95 on 93 $0.98 on E85 when you look at e85 vs premium it looks much beter and yes i calculated in the 30% more fuel __________________ SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

11-13-2009, 06:49 AM	#19
awptickes Reverend Awptickes Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bel Air, MD Age: 21 Posts: 3,953 iTrader: 6 / 100% Ride: 1999 Civic EJ9, 2009 Fit GE8, 2006 Suzuki SV650s Rep Power: 189	All of this is at STP: 1 US gallon of automobile grade diesel = 130,500 Btu 1 US gallon of gasoline = 115,000 Btu 1 US gallon of ethanol = 76,000 Btu You can see which is a better fuel. __________________ ☻/ DIY/Howto HID Projector retrofit /▌ / \

11-13-2009, 07:20 AM	#20
97hatch ? Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anderson IN Age: 26 Posts: 1,589 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: i have 14 cars i drive my sohc turbo ef Rep Power: 34	yes gas is the better choice for a dd but if you are looking at the performance aspect of it E85 is much better. Many of the fastest race cars have been runing methanol for years and its not much diffrent than ethanol except its made from wood. As for your 52mpg on 100octane and 87 octane. i just dont beleive it. I log my mpgs every time i fill up and ive done the regular vs premium many times and the difrence between premium and regular is 4-5mpg. its nearly imposiable to get the same mileage out of 100 as 87 because it burns so much slower there for the engine makes less power and has to work harder to move the vehicle unless you add lots of timing to compensate for the slower burning fuel. It just cant happen __________________ SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

11-13-2009, 07:49 AM	#21
awptickes Reverend Awptickes Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bel Air, MD Age: 21 Posts: 3,953 iTrader: 6 / 100% Ride: 1999 Civic EJ9, 2009 Fit GE8, 2006 Suzuki SV650s Rep Power: 189	Maybe you need to read a couple books instead of driving your 14 cars. __________________ ☻/ DIY/Howto HID Projector retrofit /▌ / \

11-13-2009, 08:49 AM	#22
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,360 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	Race cars(mainly boosted vehicles) run alcohol because it allows them to run higher compressions and timing; the fastest are running mainly nitromethane. Formula One and MotoGP, which are arguably the fastest NA machines, run off of gasoline. The trick is controlling detonation. You want peak cylinder pressures just after TDC so the fuel would need to hold off detonation until that point. A huge hint; F1 and motorcycles have small bores; which are less prone to detonation. As far as premium fuels go, it may just be fuel quality or the slower burn rate has no effect(caused by some other variable). My brother's car responds the same as that CRX; with 87 it gets about 31-35mpg avg, and with 89/93 we managed to get 35-38mpg avg. My Civic(swapped,etc.) got 47mpg on the highway, with 93, though I've never ran the car with anything less than 93. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006 Last edited by K2e2vin; 11-13-2009 at 08:57 AM.

11-13-2009, 10:17 AM	#24
awptickes Reverend Awptickes Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bel Air, MD Age: 21 Posts: 3,953 iTrader: 6 / 100% Ride: 1999 Civic EJ9, 2009 Fit GE8, 2006 Suzuki SV650s Rep Power: 189	any fuel on a racetrack is going to be cycled often. They take better care of the tanks that hold racetrack fuels. If you want to find good-quality high-octane fuel, go to the gas station with seperate nozzles across from a luxury car dealership, (BMW, MB, Audi, etc.) and use that station. That premium fuel doesn't sit around long. Alternatively, you could move to europe, where it's difficult to find 87(r+m/2) fuel, or Germany, where most stations don't even sell less than 90(r+m/2) anymore. __________________ ☻/ DIY/Howto HID Projector retrofit /▌ / \

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Why are fellow honda swapers aginst E85