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pissedoffsol · 06-17-2004, 12:44 PM

if you don't have to bore, don't...especially boosting the stock sleeves. a nice quick hone job to clean it up is all that is necessary. the power gain from .020 vs the holding potential of the stock sleeve is a push/shove relationship.

you can run the turbo cams on an na motor- they have a good amount of lift, but just don't have the high-revving duration that all motor cams do- which is fine, its an ls. you aren't going to make power above 7000 anyway. buying 2 cams is a waste of time and cash IMO.

GSR and ITR's have the same 4.40 final. only the JDM itr FDR is larger at 4.785. my thought is, just run a gsr. its plenty, and 5th won't kill you.
tranny work is a bitch- and far from cheap. you're looking at a $3000 tranny the way you describe it.

liquid00meth · 06-17-2004, 01:44 PM

my first thought was with B, don't bother on the overbore. If your not sleeving the block, your only making the build more dangerous, and it's benefit is negligable compared to what you could get from a little more boost on a stronger cylinder.

My suggestion would be to stick with a gsr tranny, the 5th isn't too bad. It's the ITR tranny which really works better with the ls 5th, especially for a daily driver. With the money you can save by having just a gsr (and a quaife if you really, really want it), and only buying one set of cams, you could spend the 1k and have the block iron sleeved. It's overkill for 300hp, but then again you get the peace of mind that you will never put a hole in your block. I'd even go so far as to say combined with the internals that you have listed, at 300hp you would probably never have to worry about blowing the engine under 7,000rpm.

StyleTEG · 06-17-2004, 02:22 PM

Block bored 20 over and honed - I say thats fine, just look into block posting
Wiseco 9.3:1 pistons - Why not go higher? 10:1 is going to give you more off boost power. Not to mention the increase in power will create more exhaust gases, and more exhaust gases means quicker spool time

Crower Stage 2 turbo cams
Crower valve train

Wouldn't bother on these. I have yet to see a car make worthwhile gains on the crower turbo cams unless they were pushing stupid amounts of boost. Oddly enough I have seen worthwhile gains with the 403's on the nonvtecs and turbo.

Obviously you would want to dial out some of the overlap to keep the pressure ratio where you want it.

pissedoffsol · 06-17-2004, 02:31 PM

WILD BILL was built all motor.

jdm p30 pistons yielding about 11:1, portflow re-worked head, crower 403's, and put just under 150 whp untuned, un cam geared, on a stock ls ecu.

you don't want to go that route if you're boosting.

nismogod · 06-17-2004, 05:18 PM

according to titan motorsports <i was there yeterday talkin to em about my car and their drag civic> they've seen a stock LS hold 23psi before "having" to be touched. tuning, they said, is the key. their car is a 2L GSR with somethin like 625whp and thats not at full boost and its 9:1 CR. perhaps thats all "secret" but i dont think it is. somewhere on this site, pissedoffsol posted what parts have to be upgraded at what power levels. or should be. also, someone mentioned high CR, and more power off boost. higher CR means more delicate tuning in comparison to lower CR.

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong guys.

Calesta · 06-17-2004, 06:21 PM

You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo style engine. One of my friends built his block with plans for 600whp, and he made 170hp/140lbft at the wheels before boost.

The setup:

84mm Golden Eagle sleeve in a B20 block
89mm stroke
B16A head
9.3:1 compression
Web cams
Endyn P&P head
Hondata S200 for tuning

You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo build as long as you tune it properly.

liquid00meth · 06-17-2004, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Jun 17 2004, 01:22 PM
Wiseco 9.3:1 pistons - Why not go higher? 10:1 is going to give you more off boost power. Not to mention the increase in power will create more exhaust gases, and more exhaust gases means quicker spool time

I would suggest a CR below 10, considering your probably going to be in boost more often than not, especially with the turbo you have picked out. It's only going to make your life easier in the long run. Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder. I don't know where you heard that. Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".

I would also suggest leaning on the side of saftey, and not the side of "I heard a stock LS block can handle xx psi or xxx hp." Usually the people who make those cars have deep pockets and an alternate vehicle

Tuning is the key though. Have it tuned properly once, and it will be the best thing you ever did for the lifespan (and quality) of the build.

Import Builders · 06-17-2004, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blanco+Jun 17 2004, 04:39 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Blanco @ Jun 17 2004, 04:39 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-nismogod@Jun 17 2004, 04:18 PM
according to titan motorsports <i was there yeterday talkin to em about my car and their drag civic> they've seen a stock LS hold 23psi before "having" to be touched. tuning, they said, is the key. their car is a 2L GSR with somethin like 625whp and thats not at full boost and its 9:1 CR. perhaps thats all "secret" but i dont think it is. somewhere on this site, pissedoffsol posted what parts have to be upgraded at what power levels. or should be. also, someone mentioned high CR, and more power off boost. higher CR means more delicate tuning in comparison to lower CR.

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong guys.

Yeah, I know it should be able to hold 300hp stock. Not only would it be nice to have a zero miles engine and the experience, I also want more power from the motor off and pre boost. I chose the GT28RS because it fits my power goal and spools really fast, so off boost isn't really a concern...once it's boosted. If I can get close to 180bhp, pre-boost, I'll be happy and won't have to boost as high when I get there.

Keep it coming guys, this is great.

[/b][/quote]
Hey Blanco.

I think that turbo might be too small for your goals. Its really small. Go to a T3/4E with a small A/R stage 3, it will spool fast too. and make a grip more horsepower.

Jeff

nismogod · 06-18-2004, 12:25 AM

btw, i wasn't claiming anything about the LS from me, that just what titan motorsports told me. and the prior statement about deep pockets is very very true. you've probably seen their crazy ass supra. good luck man.

StyleTEG · 06-18-2004, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquid00meth@Jun 17 2004, 09:40 PM
I would suggest a CR below 10, considering your probably going to be in boost more often than not, especially with the turbo you have picked out. It's only going to make your life easier in the long run.

The old "you need low CR for boost" is wrong and played out.

There is an article here on effective compression, its worth reading.

Moderate CR is VERY effective for boost. If you can achieve the same effective compression with a higher CR and less boost, you will have more off boost power. The only drawback is its harder to tune. If you have a good tuner in your area, you are set.

Unless you are planning on running a bar, don't lower the compression. Its not worth it. There are people running on boost on stock ITR slugs with out trouble.

Quote:

Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder. I don't know where you heard that. Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".

If you burn more of the air/fuel mix is it NOT going to create more exhaust?

Not to mention a higher CR pistons creates a stronger vacuum under the intake stroke, so more air is drawn into the cylinders (ie: increases volumetric efficiency).

I can go into this further if needed, but I shouldn't have too .

Calesta · 06-18-2004, 04:32 AM

He definitely has pistons for an LS block.

radnulb · 06-18-2004, 11:02 AM

A GT28RS will certainly give you enough airflow for 300WHP. I personally would not want a turbo that spooled that fast. A slighltly larger turbo like a .63AR T3/T4, Holset HY35, etc. would probably make the car a little more streetable in addition to giving you more room to grow.

I have a gutted 91 CRX HF w/ B18B, SSAC Manifold, 50trim .48AR T3 from a Saab, Starion IC, pushing 7psi. Stock motor, budget turbo setup. Nothing special. Turbo spools fast... Almost too fast. First, second are part throttle gears. Doing a 5mph roll -> pull in 3rd gear will make it to about 35-40mph and then break the tires loose. Doing a pull in 4th gear has traction until the head really starts flowing 4400-4500 RPMish. Have Dunlop Sport SP4000 205/50/R15 on 15x7 Rotas. Have somewhat proper suspension (GCs + AGXs. AGX full still rear, one notch down front) and a ST rear bar, in the middle of its adjustment range. The car is a fucking annoyance to drive with the least bit of water on the road. I wouldn't even think about starting it in ice or snow.

Point being: 4G chassis are relatively light. You will have nasty nasty wheelspin with a small, fast spooling turbo. A larger turbo (or at least one with a higher A/R) will really help keep your car from being a pain in the ass to drive. The instant boost of a small turbo can be a lot of fun, but it also makes the car incredibly touchy. I'm not sure I like it. I'll find out when my Holset HY35, ported head, RM L21 cams, RM rods and CP pistons go in. I'm going to compare the rebuilt motor with the T3 to the rebuilt motor with the HY35...

StyleTEG · 06-18-2004, 11:46 AM

Look at compressor maps.

Guessing almost never yeilds the best setup or the best results.

liquid00meth · 06-18-2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Jun 17 2004, 11:47 PM
The old "you need low CR for boost" is wrong and played out.

There is an article here on effective compression, its worth reading.
Moderate CR is VERY effective for boost. If you can achieve the same effective compression with a higher CR and less boost, you will have more off boost power. The only drawback is its harder to tune. If you have a good tuner in your area, you are set.
Unless you are planning on running a bar, don't lower the compression. Its not worth it. There are people running on boost on stock ITR slugs with out trouble.

Quote:

Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder.* I don't know where you heard that.* Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".

If you burn more of the air/fuel mix is it NOT going to create more exhaust?

Not to mention a higher CR pistons creates a stronger vacuum under the intake stroke, so more air is drawn into the cylinders (ie: increases volumetric efficiency).

I can go into this further if needed, but I shouldn't have too .

the point was raising your C:R doesn't "add any air/fuel mix". It just makes better use of what is already there. And thanks, I'm familiar with compression article. The C:R and vaccum are hardly related. A higher C:R yields a higher differential pressure, but the cylinder volume is the same. Essentially the intake charge will come in "faster" but still end up with the same volume.

In any case, the benefits of running a high(er) C:R in a boosted car are far outweighed by the benefits of even adding 1psi of boost (from most any turbo).

StyleTEG · 06-18-2004, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquid00meth@Jun 18 2004, 11:37 AM
the point was raising your C:R doesn't "add any air/fuel mix". It just makes better use of what is already there. And thanks, I'm familiar with compression article. The C:R and vaccum are hardly related. A higher C:R yields a higher differential pressure, but the cylinder volume is the same. Essentially the intake charge will come in "faster" but still end up with the same volume.

In any case, the benefits of running a high(er) C:R in a boosted car are far outweighed by the benefits of even adding 1psi of boost (from most any turbo).

Actually off boost it does. Because of the increase in vacuum.

Read up on volumetric effeciency, off boost you rarely reach 100% volumetric effeciency. And because of a less than perfect volumetric effeciency the cylinders are rarely or never filled to their entire volume.

No more air/fuel mix is added, but if you have a more complete burn there is more byproduct. In this case, exhaust gases. Unburnt fuel displaces exhaust, and unburnt fuel does not spin the turbine.

CR and vacuum are very related. What motion do you think draws in the intake charge when the valve is open?

Quote:

Low Comp Scenario:

V1 = volume above the piston at TDC = 41.6
V2 = volume above the piston a certain point after TDC say = 30 + 41.6

so (V2-V1)/V1 = (30 + 41.6 - 41.6)/41.6 = 72%

Meaning the volume above TDC increased 72%.

Hi Comp Scenario:

V1 = volume above the piston at TDC = 32
V2 = volume above the piston a certain point after TDC say = 30 + 32
so (V2-V1)/V1 = (30 + 32 - 32)/32 = 94%

Meaning the volume above TDC increased 94%.

I have to correct myself again, since n = atoms would be less at TDC in the high compression scenario v. the low compression scenario (smaller volume, same pressure, same Temp implies less atoms).

See the difference in %vol change. Given the ideal gas law the pressure would drop in direct proportion and thus cause flow. I mentioned graphing it since the further away you are from TDC the less dramatic the difference.

This is why high CR motors can tolerate bigger cams, because the motor will start pulling air in harder and earlier in the intake and conversely push harder and later on the exhaust stroke. This allows you to run bigger cams with more overlap (more lift near TDC).

Yep yep. On high compression motors the volume goes from being very small to large quicker. And guess what wants to fill the void.

Another term that is used is called "signal". Higher CR motors create a stronger sigal.

The benifits I listed outweight 1psi. :P

Its time ot think outside the box?

liquid00meth · 06-18-2004, 04:58 PM

you undoubtedly never reach 100% volumetric efficiency outside of boost, because that would basically mean there is no restriction to airflow, and a perfect charge at atmospheric pressure was created.

But aside from that, if in fact a "better" vaccum is created (which I'm still debating) you would increase the volumetric efficiency by hopefully filling the cylinder a bit better. Woopdee do. You get maybe 15% more volumetric efficiency, and a tuning headache, as opposed to running a turbo, which can easily put you over 200% atmospheric VE. But with a turbo, it's not just a measurement with psi, because you have to consider the cfm the turbo is pushing etc. but that is beside the point.

Also, it isn't the "compression ratio" that dictates how much fuel gets drawn in. It's the combustion chamber volume. The compression ratio isn't a motion. It's a ratio. lol. The faster the volume changes, the higher the differential pressure, and the higher the vaccum. I guess thats where your argument is coming from.

I'll give you that the vaccum is increased somewhat, but the reason I argued the point in the first place is because the gain is miniscule compared to what stands to be gained from boost. In an n/a setup, yes, every little bit counts. And a higher C:R works better with high lift cams, portflowed parts, etc. So I'd be all for the compression ratio in my n/a motor. But it's not an n/a motor. It's a boosted motor, and the headache of a tempermental motor that is extremely sensitive to hot weather, and everything else, is not worth 10hp when 1000RPM down the road the engine gets force fed way over 100% atmospheric VE anyways.

pissedoffsol · 06-18-2004, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blanco@Jun 17 2004, 04:22 PM
Right on. I remembered that it was high compression all motor, just not what the setup or power was. That was, what, about 180bhp? Just looking so see what a "good" BHP might be on this engine before I start building. Just throwing some numbers around, I'm going to be looking at about 160-170bhp on my setup before boost? For the price, it seems that a GSR might be the way to go, but it won't have the advantage of being rebuilt like the LS.

going from whp to bhp is a marginal guess at best. I won't speculate.

if sub 300 is your goal- get a gsr, and leave it stock, and boost it.

you want that tranny anyway... so thats 650-800 on top of the LS anyway.

pissedoffsol · 06-18-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nismogod@Jun 18 2004, 12:25 AM
btw, i wasn't claiming anything about the LS from me, that just what titan motorsports told me. and the prior statement about deep pockets is very very true. you've probably seen their crazy ass supra. good luck man.

sure, it CAN be built, and sure it can be dynoed, but anythign over 350 whp is pushing the stock sleeve, and its not a matter of IF it will crack, but WHEN will it crack

StyleTEG · 06-18-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

But aside from that, if in fact a "better" vaccum is created (which I'm still debating) you would increase the volumetric efficiency by hopefully filling the cylinder a bit better. Woopdee do. You get maybe 15% more volumetric efficiency, and a tuning headache, as opposed to running a turbo, which can easily put you over 200% atmospheric VE. But with a turbo, it's not just a measurement with psi, because you have to consider the cfm the turbo is pushing etc. but that is beside the point.

lol 15%, you know that most vtec heads are close to 90% stock right? :|

The idea is that with more air, more fuel, and a more complete burn it will result in more low end power, and a quicker spool time.

If you can reach the same effective compression ratio, there is no downside besides finding a qualified tuner. Which you should have in the first place.

Quote:

Also, it isn't the "compression ratio" that dictates how much fuel gets drawn in. It's the combustion chamber volume. The compression ratio isn't a motion. It's a ratio. lol.

Its the piston traveling downward that creates the vacuum. What is a major player in how that motion creates vacuum? Volume above the piston. And what effects volume above the piston? How much compression you are running.

Its all connected, its one system.

Quote:

I'll give you that the vaccum is increased somewhat, but the reason I argued the point in the first place is because the gain is miniscule compared to what stands to be gained from boost.

Have any proof, formulas, or real world examples. Or just your guess? :P

Its funny you change your tune now, originally saying that exhaust gas isn't increased as compression increases. Would you say that exhaust DOESN'T increase as hp does? :P

Its proven time and time again that you can safely run moderate compression, and it is better for performance. Period. Sometimes you have to realize there is always more to learn.

You do realize that lots of aftermarket manufactures sell higher compression pistons than stock for stock turboed cars right?

pissedoffsol · 06-18-2004, 08:18 PM

to back up what Styles is saying...

think of the all motor hondas...

LOUD as fuck.

why? because they are moving MAD air out the exhaust, and most are in the 13+ range of compression.

pissedoffsol · 06-18-2004, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blanco@Jun 18 2004, 05:55 PM
Right on. I thought I remember seeing something about a year ago about using 15% as the typical loss through the drivetrain (parasidic loss?). Originally I was going to go ITR, then I switched to GSR, then between an LS and a GSR and I think I might still rather have the GSR. Then I think that I just want the GSR for t3h Vt3CHzes and the higher reving abilty. And I do want to build this engine. Maybe I'll just build my A6 or a Z6 before dropping it into the DX hatch. It's a good thing I'm planning on waiting until after summer before doing anything with this motor. Bah I say, bah unto my indecision.

Just double checking. I'll be alright under 300whp, right? I really don't want to resleeve if I don't have to.

if you spend money to build a d-series, IMO, you're wasting yoru time and more so you're money.

boost the fuck out of it, and when it blows, buy another block for under $100.

you can blow 15 motors before you will get your money back ona sleeve/piston/rod job.

hell, im TRYING to sell an UN-blown z6 shorty with tranny for $50, and I CAN'T!!!!

under 300 whp, tuned properly, good fuel, good timing, you'll be relativly safe at a lelve below 300 whp.

if yoy're running an fmu, i'd drop that number to 200.

Import Builders · 06-18-2004, 08:42 PM

yeah< I am with pissed off!

I LOVE boosted single cams!

They make so much torque and are pretty reliable.

Jeff

liquid00meth · 06-21-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

lol 15%, you know that most vtec heads are close to 90% stock right? :|

The idea is that with more air, more fuel, and a more complete burn it will result in more low end power, and a quicker spool time.

Yah I know how that works, thanks

I was saying maybe a 15% increase in VE. Obviously its not going to go over 100%.

Quote:

Have any proof, formulas, or real world examples. Or just your guess? :P

I usually don't bother busting out math and finding examples. But as I remember it, 1 point of compression is usually good for 10whp. And while that 10hp is real great out of boost, at the same time your losing the relative ease of tuning + reliability you have with just using boost. That 10whp can easily be made up for by and extra pound or 2 of boost. I would post the numerous dyno charts of cars running sub 10, and even sub 9, compression and post perfectly good HP #s and track times. Who the hell races out of boost anyways? Especially on a B series transmission, your not even dropping out of VTEC when you shift, never mind dropping boost. Most any turbo your going to use on a street honda is going to be spooled by 4k no matter what. D series transmissions don't even drop below 4k from a redline shift.

If anything, I'd want to be sucking in as little fuel as possible under 4k to keep gas mileage in hand. I just don't see the advantage to using higher compression on the boosted car. It just plain isn't neccessary.

Quote:

Its funny you change your tune now, originally saying that exhaust gas isn't increased as compression increases. Would you say that exhaust DOESN'T increase as hp does? :P

It prompted me to read a bit more on the subject, and yes, I decided I wasn't completely right. Considering the physics at first, it doesn't seem apparent that squishing something more has anything to do with adding more air. I didn't think much about the vaccum.

Quote:

Its proven time and time again that you can safely run moderate compression, and it is better for performance. Period. Sometimes you have to realize there is always more to learn.

You can also run individual throttle bodies on an n/a car, and it's better for performance. It can also be done safely. It doesn't mean everyone wants the extra problems. It also doesn't mean that there aren't downsides.

Quote:

You do realize that lots of aftermarket manufactures sell higher compression pistons than stock for stock turboed cars right?

Lots more sell boost controllers

StyleTEG · 06-21-2004, 03:28 PM

I understand where you are coming from, I just see it as blown out of proportion.

There really is no rule, X amount of CR = X amount of HP

just like there is no rule that X amount of boost = X amount of HP

The idea being that you keep the same effective compression, just use more compression to get there. The performance gains are more than just top end, like increasing the boost (this of cource depends on the turbo and how long it takes to fully spool the extra 1-2psi)

Yes in all out race situations you are in the top end, but you still have to wait for the turbo to spool after the shift even if you do land at 4k. So an increase in spool time would be benifical. (unless of cource you are doing full throttle shifting or have some sort of misfiring system). On a road cource there are times where you have to manipulate the throttle. Better transient response can be crucial.

10:1 isn't a whole lot of compression. There are plenty of turbo gsr's that run that much CR daily, and plenty of ITRs that run that much on higher compression.

I don't see any reason to lower compression from stock. I wouldn't go to 11:1 unless it was a JRSC application, but 10:1 is very reasonable.

radnulb · 06-21-2004, 04:58 PM

I think boosted single cams are great - I'll have one soon in addition to the boosted LS.
I will disagree with pissedoffsol on the built single cam turbo issue.
Using aftermarket rods and forged pistons is kinda retarded, but there are a couple of budget alternatives that make sense to me.
LS rods are the same length as D16 rods. Same size crank journal, 19mm rod journal (vs 17mm on most Ds.) and slightly thicker. Minor machining to thin down the rod so it bolts to the crank and voila you have a dirt cheap/free rod that is easily available that is good for 250-300WHP without any fear. Add in the Suzuki vitara G16A/G16B pistons with 75mm bore and you have a great combination for udner $150 for a Z6/Y8. For ZCs use the 98-01 GX piston that has the 19mm wrist pin and voila...

D series builds with bling-spec shit are retarded. If you're gonna stay D, stick with the budget mentality and (possibly?) get a little more creative about how you build the motor.

That is purely an opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

06-17-2004, 01:44 PM	#2
liquid00meth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Laconia, NH Posts: 3,201 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 47	my first thought was with B, don't bother on the overbore. If your not sleeving the block, your only making the build more dangerous, and it's benefit is negligable compared to what you could get from a little more boost on a stronger cylinder. My suggestion would be to stick with a gsr tranny, the 5th isn't too bad. It's the ITR tranny which really works better with the ls 5th, especially for a daily driver. With the money you can save by having just a gsr (and a quaife if you really, really want it), and only buying one set of cams, you could spend the 1k and have the block iron sleeved. It's overkill for 300hp, but then again you get the peace of mind that you will never put a hole in your block. I'd even go so far as to say combined with the internals that you have listed, at 300hp you would probably never have to worry about blowing the engine under 7,000rpm. __________________ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -The thought provoking George W. Bush

06-17-2004, 02:22 PM	#3
StyleTEG Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 217 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 15	Block bored 20 over and honed - I say thats fine, just look into block posting Wiseco 9.3:1 pistons - Why not go higher? 10:1 is going to give you more off boost power. Not to mention the increase in power will create more exhaust gases, and more exhaust gases means quicker spool time Crower Stage 2 turbo cams Crower valve train Wouldn't bother on these. I have yet to see a car make worthwhile gains on the crower turbo cams unless they were pushing stupid amounts of boost. Oddly enough I have seen worthwhile gains with the 403's on the nonvtecs and turbo. Obviously you would want to dial out some of the overlap to keep the pressure ratio where you want it. __________________ <a href=\'http://www.limitedslipmotorsports.com\' target=\'_blank\'>http://www.limitedslipmotorsports.com</a>

06-17-2004, 05:18 PM	#5
nismogod Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Deltona, FL Posts: 1,031 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 24	according to titan motorsports <i was there yeterday talkin to em about my car and their drag civic> they've seen a stock LS hold 23psi before "having" to be touched. tuning, they said, is the key. their car is a 2L GSR with somethin like 625whp and thats not at full boost and its 9:1 CR. perhaps thats all "secret" but i dont think it is. somewhere on this site, pissedoffsol posted what parts have to be upgraded at what power levels. or should be. also, someone mentioned high CR, and more power off boost. higher CR means more delicate tuning in comparison to lower CR. feel free to correct me if i'm wrong guys. __________________ Power is nothing without Control.

06-17-2004, 06:21 PM	#6
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo style engine. One of my friends built his block with plans for 600whp, and he made 170hp/140lbft at the wheels before boost. The setup: 84mm Golden Eagle sleeve in a B20 block 89mm stroke B16A head 9.3:1 compression Web cams Endyn P&P head Hondata S200 for tuning You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo build as long as you tune it properly. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

06-18-2004, 12:25 AM	#9
nismogod Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Deltona, FL Posts: 1,031 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 24	btw, i wasn't claiming anything about the LS from me, that just what titan motorsports told me. and the prior statement about deep pockets is very very true. you've probably seen their crazy ass supra. good luck man. __________________ Power is nothing without Control.


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06-17-2004, 12:44 PM	#1
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	if you don't have to bore, don't...especially boosting the stock sleeves. a nice quick hone job to clean it up is all that is necessary. the power gain from .020 vs the holding potential of the stock sleeve is a push/shove relationship. you can run the turbo cams on an na motor- they have a good amount of lift, but just don't have the high-revving duration that all motor cams do- which is fine, its an ls. you aren't going to make power above 7000 anyway. buying 2 cams is a waste of time and cash IMO. GSR and ITR's have the same 4.40 final. only the JDM itr FDR is larger at 4.785. my thought is, just run a gsr. its plenty, and 5th won't kill you. tranny work is a bitch- and far from cheap. you're looking at a $3000 tranny the way you describe it.

06-17-2004, 02:31 PM	#4
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	WILD BILL was built all motor. jdm p30 pistons yielding about 11:1, portflow re-worked head, crower 403's, and put just under 150 whp untuned, un cam geared, on a stock ls ecu. you don't want to go that route if you're boosting.

06-18-2004, 04:32 AM	#11
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	He definitely has pistons for an LS block. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

06-18-2004, 11:02 AM	#12
radnulb Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sinsinnaty, Ohio Posts: 674 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 19	A GT28RS will certainly give you enough airflow for 300WHP. I personally would not want a turbo that spooled that fast. A slighltly larger turbo like a .63AR T3/T4, Holset HY35, etc. would probably make the car a little more streetable in addition to giving you more room to grow. I have a gutted 91 CRX HF w/ B18B, SSAC Manifold, 50trim .48AR T3 from a Saab, Starion IC, pushing 7psi. Stock motor, budget turbo setup. Nothing special. Turbo spools fast... Almost too fast. First, second are part throttle gears. Doing a 5mph roll -> pull in 3rd gear will make it to about 35-40mph and then break the tires loose. Doing a pull in 4th gear has traction until the head really starts flowing 4400-4500 RPMish. Have Dunlop Sport SP4000 205/50/R15 on 15x7 Rotas. Have somewhat proper suspension (GCs + AGXs. AGX full still rear, one notch down front) and a ST rear bar, in the middle of its adjustment range. The car is a fucking annoyance to drive with the least bit of water on the road. I wouldn't even think about starting it in ice or snow. Point being: 4G chassis are relatively light. You will have nasty nasty wheelspin with a small, fast spooling turbo. A larger turbo (or at least one with a higher A/R) will really help keep your car from being a pain in the ass to drive. The instant boost of a small turbo can be a lot of fun, but it also makes the car incredibly touchy. I'm not sure I like it. I'll find out when my Holset HY35, ported head, RM L21 cams, RM rods and CP pistons go in. I'm going to compare the rebuilt motor with the T3 to the rebuilt motor with the HY35... __________________ PGMFI.org founder and DIY ECU tuning advocate Just say no to rice...

06-18-2004, 11:46 AM	#13
StyleTEG Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 217 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 15	Look at compressor maps. Guessing almost never yeilds the best setup or the best results. __________________ <a href=\'http://www.limitedslipmotorsports.com\' target=\'_blank\'>http://www.limitedslipmotorsports.com</a>

06-18-2004, 04:58 PM	#16
liquid00meth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Laconia, NH Posts: 3,201 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 47	you undoubtedly never reach 100% volumetric efficiency outside of boost, because that would basically mean there is no restriction to airflow, and a perfect charge at atmospheric pressure was created. But aside from that, if in fact a "better" vaccum is created (which I'm still debating) you would increase the volumetric efficiency by hopefully filling the cylinder a bit better. Woopdee do. You get maybe 15% more volumetric efficiency, and a tuning headache, as opposed to running a turbo, which can easily put you over 200% atmospheric VE. But with a turbo, it's not just a measurement with psi, because you have to consider the cfm the turbo is pushing etc. but that is beside the point. Also, it isn't the "compression ratio" that dictates how much fuel gets drawn in. It's the combustion chamber volume. The compression ratio isn't a motion. It's a ratio. lol. The faster the volume changes, the higher the differential pressure, and the higher the vaccum. I guess thats where your argument is coming from. I'll give you that the vaccum is increased somewhat, but the reason I argued the point in the first place is because the gain is miniscule compared to what stands to be gained from boost. In an n/a setup, yes, every little bit counts. And a higher C:R works better with high lift cams, portflowed parts, etc. So I'd be all for the compression ratio in my n/a motor. But it's not an n/a motor. It's a boosted motor, and the headache of a tempermental motor that is extremely sensitive to hot weather, and everything else, is not worth 10hp when 1000RPM down the road the engine gets force fed way over 100% atmospheric VE anyways. __________________ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -The thought provoking George W. Bush

06-18-2004, 08:18 PM	#20
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	to back up what Styles is saying... think of the all motor hondas... LOUD as fuck. why? because they are moving MAD air out the exhaust, and most are in the 13+ range of compression.

06-18-2004, 08:42 PM	#22
Import Builders Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: LA, California Posts: 248 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 14	yeah< I am with pissed off! I LOVE boosted single cams! They make so much torque and are pretty reliable. Jeff __________________ [url=http://www.importbuilders.com[/URL] <a href=\'http://www.importreview.com\' target=\'_blank\'>Proof our stuff works</a> <a href=\'http://www.ibspec.com\' target=\'_blank\'>E-Commerce</a> And now...the UNDISPUTED King of Value for Turbo's <a href=\'http://www.importbuilders.com/turbo.html\' target=\'_blank\'>Turbo's, Intercoolers, Wastegate, Manifolds</a> Piston/Rod Engine questions? Ask away! I am here to help!

06-21-2004, 03:28 PM	#24
StyleTEG Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 217 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 15	I understand where you are coming from, I just see it as blown out of proportion. There really is no rule, X amount of CR = X amount of HP just like there is no rule that X amount of boost = X amount of HP The idea being that you keep the same effective compression, just use more compression to get there. The performance gains are more than just top end, like increasing the boost (this of cource depends on the turbo and how long it takes to fully spool the extra 1-2psi) Yes in all out race situations you are in the top end, but you still have to wait for the turbo to spool after the shift even if you do land at 4k. So an increase in spool time would be benifical. (unless of cource you are doing full throttle shifting or have some sort of misfiring system). On a road cource there are times where you have to manipulate the throttle. Better transient response can be crucial. 10:1 isn't a whole lot of compression. There are plenty of turbo gsr's that run that much CR daily, and plenty of ITRs that run that much on higher compression. I don't see any reason to lower compression from stock. I wouldn't go to 11:1 unless it was a JRSC application, but 10:1 is very reasonable. __________________ <a href=\'http://www.limitedslipmotorsports.com\' target=\'_blank\'>http://www.limitedslipmotorsports.com</a>

06-21-2004, 04:58 PM	#25
radnulb Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sinsinnaty, Ohio Posts: 674 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 19	I think boosted single cams are great - I'll have one soon in addition to the boosted LS. I will disagree with pissedoffsol on the built single cam turbo issue. Using aftermarket rods and forged pistons is kinda retarded, but there are a couple of budget alternatives that make sense to me. LS rods are the same length as D16 rods. Same size crank journal, 19mm rod journal (vs 17mm on most Ds.) and slightly thicker. Minor machining to thin down the rod so it bolts to the crank and voila you have a dirt cheap/free rod that is easily available that is good for 250-300WHP without any fear. Add in the Suzuki vitara G16A/G16B pistons with 75mm bore and you have a great combination for udner $150 for a Z6/Y8. For ZCs use the 98-01 GX piston that has the 19mm wrist pin and voila... D series builds with bling-spec shit are retarded. If you're gonna stay D, stick with the budget mentality and (possibly?) get a little more creative about how you build the motor. That is purely an opinion. Take it for what it's worth. __________________ PGMFI.org founder and DIY ECU tuning advocate Just say no to rice...

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