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This is a discussion on b18c1 build in the Engine Building forum
hey guys. i had an 18g greddy turbo kit. . . but now i'm selling it to go all motor! i haven't even used the turbo yet, lol! anyway. just felt that was necessary to say right now, i'm running a b18c1 in a eg ...
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|12-15-2006, 12:18 AM||#1|
hey guys. i had an 18g greddy turbo kit. . . but now i'm selling it to go all motor! i haven't even used the turbo yet, lol!
anyway. just felt that was necessary to say
right now, i'm running a b18c1 in a eg coupe, intake, exhaust, header, p28 chipped ecu, vafc, exedy stage 1 clutch, stock axles, stock pistons, stock gsr trans, etc.
anyway. . . i was planning on building my motor. i was looking into cam set ups, but now i'm just wondering on a few things. i'm planning on getting a skunk2 stage 2 cam setup (266 @ 12.3mm intake / 262 @ 11.8mm exhaust) . along with this, i was planning on getting skunk2 valves, valvesprings, cam gears, and retainers. is this overkill? i know i shouldn't be using oversized valves, but i don't know if the skunk2 valves would be oversized, since it is made from skunk2. are retainers even necessary? i read somewhere that with the cams, itr valves would work well, or port flow would work just as well. does it matter?
these are pretty much closely paired to jun stage 3 cams, but they're much cheaper and are very reliable as well, according to stupid reviews
anyway, any help that could point me to the right direction would be great.
thanks in advance.
|12-15-2006, 12:54 AM||#2|
for an all motor build, id get stock sized valves, skunk2 stage 2 cams rock, so good choice there.
the problem with those cams, they love compression. Switch your p72 pistons for some p30s and youll notice better gains out of the cams.
|12-15-2006, 01:58 PM||#3|
by "getting stock sized valves" do you mean leave my stock ones on there? i was possibly thinking going itr intake valves and keeping the exhaust valves stock.
what are p30 pistons? i've never heard of them.
|12-15-2006, 05:33 PM||#6|
blanco, i just thought getting aftermarket valves (not oversized) was how to do the build properly, just like getting forged internals if you wanted to go boost at high psi. (bad analogy ) my power goal is 205-210 whp. is this do-able?
reik, if i were to go stage 2 cams, i should get p30's right? what about if i wanted to do the stage 1 cam set up, i wouldn't need to upgrade the bottom end because it's not as aggressive, correct? or do the stage 1 cams also still love compression? lol.
|12-16-2006, 03:34 AM||#8|
since the s2s2 cams and the s2s1 cams are the same price, should i just get the s2s2 and just make it work? stock bottom end with the stage 2 cams would work right?
i don't know right now. i'm like half asleep and just got home from work, and it's like 215 or something.
|12-16-2006, 11:53 AM||#10|
are you sure they'll be good? i mean, it's ebay and all. it only costs 40 bucks labor for removing the bottom end, ripping it apart, removing my old pistons, putting in my new pistons, and putting it back together? i imagined it would be more.
what's the compression for the nippon pistons?
|12-17-2006, 12:12 PM||#12|
anyway, what good would oem replacement pistons do? are the nippon pistons forged? is there any advantage with this as opposed to getting aftermarket?
exodus, right now, my budget will be about 1600. and my power goal is 220whp.
|12-17-2006, 08:45 PM||#13|
so i'm not going to need pistons for the s2s2 cams? i thought the cams liked high revving / compression? what about if i go stage 1 ? should i get the skunk2 cam gears as well? or should i go different brand?
by "Check bearing clearance and replace as necessary" what do you mean by that?
what kind of springs / retainers should i get? i know i can't just get any kind, and that there has to be a certain kind i get to match, or something.
|12-17-2006, 10:43 PM||#14|
|12-18-2006, 02:04 AM||#15|
i think i should just save up more.
and reikoshea, i will take it to a builder and just have them do it
|12-19-2006, 12:09 AM||#16|
cool. so i went to my local shop ..
street port and polish = 350.
s2s2 = 550-600
s2s1 = 500-550 (or may be the same, dono, forgot what he said)
and i didn't ask about springs and retainers. . . roughly 1200-1400 ghetto build w/ tune. . . and then i'm probably leaving my bottom end stock, because its like 1g+ to install the pistons and whatnot.
so i may end up just doing a stage 1 build. that's still like 205 whp.
is my skunk2 intake manifold not higher flowing enough? lol. but i'm still rockin a stock throttle body.
|12-19-2006, 12:59 AM||#17|
honestly i think your setup will only do about 180-190 without increased compression and a full port job and valve job (more flow and power is acheived from a good valve job then port work anyway).
and theres a pretty big difference in size of the s1 and s2
the stage 1's are really only slightly bigger then OEM type R cams. and if you are going to use them, id suggest going to at least ITR valvetrain.
b16 valve spings will bind at 12.2mm lift, and ITR's at 13.1, and since GSR cams are only ever so slightly more aggressive in cam profile then the b16's i will assume that the spings arent too far off from the b16's as well (but i could be wrong, i only have b16 spring data in front of me). you want at least 1-1.5mm of breathing room before coil bind.
'91 CRX si
I DO NOT answer tech questions via PM. Use the forums!!!
Last edited by GSRCRXsi; 12-19-2006 at 01:14 AM.
|12-19-2006, 01:29 AM||#18|
i can't find a machine shop that'll do that for me. 40 bucks a piston is dirt cheap, and i wish i knew of one that could do it for me for that cheap.
btw, i already do have the s2 intake mani. i may have forgotten to mention it cuz i r teh suck.
right now, here's my stupid plan.
skunk2 stage 1 cams, skunk2 cam gears, port and polish, and now i'm still looking around and researching for the valvesprings / retainers, which i'm having shit luck with.
if i do find a machine shop, then i'll go nippon pistons. but if not, that's my plan for the time being.
|12-19-2006, 02:39 AM||#19|
in all seriousness, thank you.
i really think i should take a breath and just chill the fuck out. lol.
i've been so anal on what i wanna do with my car, it's like i do so much "research" if you can call it that, and really learn nothing.
god like whenever i get excited i want to get it and put it on right away. im so stubborn. can you smack me? lol.
but yeah. thanks for your words of wisdom. i don't even know why i'm in such a hurry. i'm like, planning everything out.
|12-19-2006, 03:13 AM||#20|
Cams - B16A-B18C 1.6/1.8L DOHC VTEC - STAGE 1 $698.92
VALVE SET(STOCK SIZE B-SERIES DOHC VTEC) - HIGH COMP $373.20
B16A-B18C1-5 1.6/1.8L DOHC VTEC VALVE SPRING SET $282.63
B16A-B18C1-5 1.6/1.8L DOHC VTEC PRO-SERIES VALVE SPRING SET $374.06
60\66\68mm BILLET THROTTLE BODY D,B,H,F SERIES ENGINE $324.19
1.6/1.7/1.8/2.3L DOHC CIVIC/DEL SOL/INTEGRA/PRELUDE CAM GEARS - SILVER\RED\BLUE $269.06
Bump-Stix are available for all Honda B series VTEC engines $ 725.00
Road Racing Springs (stock weight valves) running 9,800 peak RPM $ 255.00
Pro Series Springs (oversize valves) running over 10,000 RPM $ 345.00
Titanium Retainers (stock, +.030", +.060") $149.00
B VTEC Intake 33.0, 33.5 and 34.0 mm Exhaust 28.0 and 28.5 mm
Price not Listed
Roller Wave Pistons 81.0 mm 87.2 mm 5.433" 11.23-11.87:1 4.2 21.0 mm 273/81 gm 1.185"
All pistons listed above are $525.00 per engine set. Gas Ports add $50.00 per set. Groove-Lock Spacers add $15.00
Piston sets come complete with fitted wrist pins and pin-retaining clips. All pistons can be used with full-floating or press-fit connecting rods.
4mm wall thickness piston pins available for extreme HP turbo applications at an additional cost of $50.00 per set.
Piston Rings range from $145.00 to $155.00 per engine set.
Skirt coatings add $20.00 per piston. Ceramic dome coatings add $25.00 per piston.
Alright, just some rough numbers for parts, the Skunk2 brand is running you at $1623.81 for just the Cams, Valves, the cheaper Springs and gears, that's not including pistons, rings, a throttle body, labor, machine work etc...
With ENDYN, on the cheaper end it's about... .. ... $1799, that's Cams, Valves (road race 9,800rpm), Springs, retainers, pistons\rings, and I think that's it.
Let's do a decent build, mixing the two companies:
Bump Stix - $725
66mm TB - $324.19
Gears - $269.06
Skunk2 Valves high comp - 373.20
Valve Spring - $255
Rollwer Wave Pistons +access. $860
Titanium Retainers - $149
In just PARTS
There's no port matching, valve jobs, assembly\labor\cleaning\honing\boring, other machining, or tuning included.
That would however net your power over 200 to the wheels.
So you are aware, turbo is cheaper than NA up to around where NA power maxes out. As the turbo engine still has more room to make more power, it will cost more in parts and tuning.
But for the $3000 alone in just the parts that I chose to list and add together, you'd be better off running 10lbs turbocharged.
High compression immediately costs you money, it means the engine needs to be torn apart and reassembled. You can add boost without taking the engine apart, you can't add compression like that.
I would recommend you assemble a turbo kit good for 8-10psi, stock motor, upgraded ECU. You won't max out your factory ignition or fuel as long as your not making more than 130% power over stock (which is where the factory injectors tend not to continue doing what they need to, the ignition becomes inadequate after more power than that).
While you're making 130% over stock, tuned out, saving gas, quieter car, BOV coolness involved, you're saving you money to rebuild the bottom end (add block posts, block girdle, high perf. oil pump, cometic head gasket, total seal rings, stock pistons\rods\crank, balanced rotating assembly, fluidampr pulley), and then work the head over a little (stock valve train, port matching, rc injectors (higher cc no more than 450), then up then boost to like 15psi. I am so forgetting stuff during the upgrade process, but this is all on the fly without mapping it all out.
You're going to make more power turbocharged, period. All Honda engines have a low power ceiling NA. YES, so does K-Series (YES, I know Skunk2 is making 300WHP in their NA RSX, but the K-Series turbo power ceiling is ridiculous... just WAIT). The engines are too well built from the factory to show that much more improvement over stock when you build NA, and that's fresh out of the factory. You need a lot of machine work, way more displacement and compression and a bunch of tuning to make what low end, low build turbo Hondas make, and all for MORE money.
|12-19-2006, 08:12 AM||#21|
I supPOSE you can build an ok NA street engine on a budget... harumph...
To be completely honest, I would have to recommend a full head package for starters. It seems you are trying to build an engine without any\much machine work, so, the least you can do is make sure she is breathing well mechanically if you can't yet open the ports.
I'm going to be a big proponent of using the Stage 1 items from Skunk2 for this current recommendation. Their intake manifold was a step in the right direction. A few key things to remember about the head:
- Throttle body ID should match the intake manifold. Buy an appropriately sized TB for your application, after-market or OE.
- Without port work, the valvetrain and cams won't be able to fully realize their potential. However, that does not mean you won't have a lot of room for improvement\tuning with this newer version of your old head.
- OE is best. For an application like yours, try using as many OE sized parts as possible, like your valves and pistons for instance. This is because you are not altering your bore or reconfiguring your valve seats, so you shouldn't change the hardware.
- You may consider plumbing more oil to the head even though your engine is factory set up for VTEC. This should help improve cam lobe life, as well as minimizing wear on other head components. It will also provide you a nice "tap" for an oil pressure gauge, which you should buy whether you are going with forced induction or not!
- If you are building on a budget, I think you should leave your bottom end alone. The head is going to be expensive enough to upgrade and will show you the most improvement without upping your displacement or using FI. If your engine has less than 110-120K miles, you should be fine. If it's around there or over, perhaps consider building your block and leaving the head completely untouched. Then, when it's time for the head, you can just pull it off, send it off, and slap it back on. That way, you have a lot less work before you go to the dyno. Unless you alter the stroke, rod length or pistons when you do the bottom end, you won't need any tuning after it's over. A change in your compression ratio will require that you tune, however, if it's basically stock, just stronger now (and has a fresh rebuild goin on as well), then you can save the tuning money for after you get your head done. If you did the head first, then the block, that would be two trips to the dyno instead of one, which is a lot mor costly!
I'll think of more stuff later, I can't concentrate on anything right now, lol
|12-19-2006, 05:11 PM||#22|
Once again, touche!
I still believe though that the head and block should be built separately. I believe it would save a lot of time and work on his part, however, doing things more times than necessary was how I've learned a lot of what I know!
I'll return to this thread after work and try to sketch up a halfway decent build on a budget for this guy as well (doing it for another thread too).
|12-20-2006, 09:41 AM||#24|
gas porting ftw! hahaha =]
blanco, once i end up getting enough funds, i'll probably end up going with the nippon racing pistons later, since it's pretty much OE replacement. i dont mind going back to the dyno / shop a few times. i wouldn't mind seeing the numbers increase :P haha. but for now, i'll probably stick with a stage 1 setup just so i can run it, and then once i get better at driving my car with a stage 1 setup and understand how it reacts more, i may go stage 2, since at that time i'll probably have pistons.
exodus, the skunk2 intake mani is already installed. i think it may be the stock TB size (64mm i think) but i had it done by my local shop.
so after i get my money, i'll probably get a street port, and look around for a good deal for cams. IF ANYONE FINDS A GOOD DEAL ON SKUNK2 STAGE 1 CAMS, LET ME KNOW PLEASE i'm also planning on going with skunk2 cam gears, so i'm also going to look around for that. that's a good philosophy to go by, the not buying parts for full price on a first build.
since i'll probably end up going with a stage 1 set up, is changing the valvesprings / retainers necessary?
|12-20-2006, 03:28 PM||#25|
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