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22crazy · 02-21-2003, 11:28 PM

i was reading an article on the net about an engine build...i thought i might as well share it because its suppose to be the ls/vtec cure.

the motor consists of this:

b16a1
b17a crank
12.5:1 compression pistons
here comes the fun part....86mm bore (reseleeved)
forged connection rods
and a crazy valve train (u guys can use ur imagine on what that can be made up of)

basically i wanted ur input on this build.

the author of the article believes this motor should be able to rev to 12k no problem making 210(i think whp) with ease

another thing was that u need to machine the head to accomonate the 86mm bore.

whats ur take?

Calesta · 02-22-2003, 01:43 AM

It could work- but your pistons may not clear the head after you throw in the longer stroke crank. You're right though- you'd want to deshroud the head some anyway (don't HAVE to), and you'll probably want to use custom pistons, so you'd probably be able to make it all work. Using B16 rods, you would have a rod/stroke ratio of 1.65, and I don't know how long the B17 rods are, so I can't give you that number. The 1.54 of the LS and the 1.58 of the GSR block really aren't bad either, and all you need to rev those up high is a good crank girdle and decent rods/pistons and ARP fasteners (or equivalent) to hold it all together.

I would personally build a longer stroke engine for less money, and still make the same amount of power (if not more) with fewer revs. Your engine will last longer, and you'll have more torque too.

B16 · 02-22-2003, 02:10 AM

i dont know how that would be considered an ls/vtec cure, the two motors are completely different, the ls/vtec has an under-square design, while the b16 with a b17 crank would be almost a perfect square (81mm bore x 81.4mm stroke) i've thought of putting a b17 crank in my b16, it would be a nice setup, basically makes it a b17 the blocks are the same. that motor would be great at the high revs like you said, being an 85x81.4 (b16 being 81x77.4) which would actually be pretty much the same geometry as the b16

Calesta · 02-22-2003, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B16@Feb 22 2003, 01:15 AM
i dont know how that would be considered an ls/vtec cure, the two motors are completely different, the ls/vtec has an under-square design, while the b16 with a b17 crank would be almost a perfect square (81mm bore x 81.4mm stroke) i've thought of putting a b17 crank in my b16, it would be a nice setup, basically makes it a b17 the blocks are the same. that motor would be great at the high revs like you said, being an 85x81.4 (b16 being 81x77.4) which would actually be pretty much the same geometry as the b16

You're right... to expand a little more (might as well write it down since I was thinking it), I did some quick math:

LS/VTEC = 81 bore x 89 stroke = 0.9101 bore/stroke ratio = 1834.47 cc
His = 86 bore x 81.4 stroke = 1.0565 bore/stroke ratio = 1891.35 cc
B16 = 81 bore x 77 stroke = 1.0519 bore/stroke ratio = 1587.12 cc

The 86 x 81.4 would be 1891.35 cc vs the 1834.47 of the LS/VTEC, so it would gain some torque through the extra displacement, but then lose a lot more with the large decrease in stroke. You could also see it as a slightly longer stroke B16 with the same bore/stroke ratio, and extrapolate a torque curve based on the 1.9L vs 1.6L comparison.

How long are the rods in the B17?

If we assume that this setup uses the B16 rods, you get rod/stroke ratios of:

LS/VTEC = 1.5393
His = 1.6506
B16 = 1.7449

So you would have a very rev happy engine that was just a hair under 1.9 liters. If you want a really rough guess for power curves, assuming all factors equal except the bore/stroke (same compression, etc), you could add 19% to the B16's torque curve and estimate from there. Backsolving from the B16A2's peak power of 160hp @ 7600rpm gives you 110.56842 lbft @ 7600rpm, add 19% and calculate power again- then you get 190hp at the crank. (Thinking about it now, you could just add 19% to the peak power and get your rough estimate, since horsepower is calculated on a linear scale from torque and the two will vary according to the same constant whoops.) Add in the longer stroke for more torque, higher compression for more torque, and you have yourself a pretty sweet setup. Headwork, cams, etc- it all adds up.

Here's how I got my 19%, by the way: (1891.35 - 1587.12) / 1587.12 = 304.23 / 1587.12 = 19.16868%

Of course, this is REALLY rough guessing, just using some easy math to estimate what could be made with this setup, assuming ideal conditions, and assuming that an engine operating under violent combustion and a dynamic environment really conforms to pure math.

Now a Golden Eagle sleeve in a B block can actually handle an 87mm bore, so while we're dreaming, try this:

87 bore x 81.4 stroke = 1.0688 bore/stroke ratio = 1935.59 cc, same rod/stroke of 1.6506

You now have a 348.47 difference in displacement, which comes out to a 21.95612% increase, resulting in a guessed 195hp at the crank. If you were able to maintain a flat torque curve all the way to 9000rpm, you would actually be pushing 228hp @ 9000rpm, which isn't too shabby. 10000rpm would get you 253hp, and 11000rpm would get you to 279hp.

Again, this is all just educated guessing- you probably won't gain like that, given this build. These are assuming ideal conditions, and a perfectly flat torque curve.

Confuzzled yet?

:P

Calesta · 02-22-2003, 02:42 AM

Oh yeah- while I'm at it, let me throw this one at you...

87mm bore x 95mm stroke, 1.75 rod/stroke ratio in a B block. You get 2259cc out of it, then make the head breathe all the way up to 10k (who knows if it can), and you get boatloads of power without resorting to boost or juice. It's feasible.

SixtySecondAssassin · 02-22-2003, 02:51 AM

with that r/s ratio the pistons would smash the valves

Calesta · 02-22-2003, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SixtySecondAssassin@Feb 22 2003, 01:56 AM
with that r/s ratio the pistons would smash the valves

Maybe, if you use stock pistons. Like I said- you would need custom pistons no matter what. Rod/stroke ratio has nothing to do with smashing valves though... but if you're referring to the rod length that would be required to have 1.75 R/S ratio in a 95mm stroke block, yes they would hit- if you didn't modify the block to suit the application.

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 10:08 AM

wow calesta, ur a geneus....guy i love math, but man u took it extreme...i guess thats why ur en engineer eh

but ya this is the article i found...i thought it would be better if u actually read it

http://www.hondastyle.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=33

SixtySecondAssassin · 02-22-2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calesta@Feb 22 2003, 02:16 AM
... but if you're referring to the rod length that would be required to have 1.75 R/S ratio in a 95mm stroke block, yes they would hit- if you didn't modify the block to suit the application.

i was

lsvtec · 02-22-2003, 11:48 AM

That guy really needs to quit writing "articles". First, his R/S article was complete bullshit and showed that he didn't really understand what he was talking about. Now with this proposed build he neglects to say that the decreased stroke leads to decreased torque. His power numbers are off for a "stock" LSVTEC (what is stock??? if you were dumb enough to build an LSVTEC with all the parts he has listed, you deserve the blown engine). Now for the real

meter. His pricing is lame. For the B16 with B17 crank bored to 86mm:
Assume you found a 1st gen B16 for cheap like I did: $650 no tranny, $950 with tranny
Sleeves + install approx. $1000
Rods $350 (eagle forged)
Endyn pistons $550
That comes to $2850
I did my first LSVTEC with LS rods and B16 pistons, ITR cams, ITR water & oil pump, + a host of other goodies for right around $2500 and had more power than this thing using B16A1 cams will.

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 01:08 PM

lol, yeah i knew something was up wit that build....can u have an 86mm bore (reseleeved) with an ls or gsr crank?

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 01:21 PM

oh the length of b17a rods is the same as b18a/b

i found it at this site

http://www.cdpautomachine.com/ecatalog/importrods.html

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 01:26 PM

i was doing sum calculations for calesta's motor (87mm x 95mm); to get a ratio of 1.75 u would need rods with the length of 6.65", stock rods are 5.394" - difference of 1.256"

i was just wondering how would u compensate ur block, head, valves, etc for a 1.256" increase in length.

K2e2vin · 02-22-2003, 02:18 PM

1.25"!!!!!!!! Thats a lot of space.

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 02:30 PM

ya u think....my god ur hood probably wont even close

i was looking at sum site, c-speedracing.com and using there compression ratio test....first off i dunno where ur gonna get a head gasket to fill that space...and second...if i did my calculations right...and im still not sure about this so dont quote me on it but i think the compression ratio will be 3:1

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 03:12 PM

"and the 1.58 of the GSR block" ( i dunno how to quote but basically calesta said this)

i read that the length of gsr rods are 5.43" which is approx 135.75mm, if this is so then the ratio would be approx 1.56.

Anyways whether is the tru length and ratio....basically my question is whats the longest rods (custom) u could put in a gsr, 87.2mm stroke...without worring too much about the piston hitting the valves.

K2e2vin · 02-22-2003, 03:57 PM

137.9mm

22crazy · 02-22-2003, 06:17 PM

thanx

SolReaver · 02-22-2003, 07:36 PM

this is the most retarded thing i have ever read -

Quote:

By now, everyone is pretty familiar with my favorite saying: If it was all that great, Honda would have done it in the first place.

so turbos arent good cause honda didnt put them stock on all their cars?

02-21-2003, 11:28 PM	#1
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	i was reading an article on the net about an engine build...i thought i might as well share it because its suppose to be the ls/vtec cure. the motor consists of this: b16a1 b17a crank 12.5:1 compression pistons here comes the fun part....86mm bore (reseleeved) forged connection rods and a crazy valve train (u guys can use ur imagine on what that can be made up of) basically i wanted ur input on this build. the author of the article believes this motor should be able to rev to 12k no problem making 210(i think whp) with ease another thing was that u need to machine the head to accomonate the 86mm bore. whats ur take? __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 01:43 AM	#2
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	It could work- but your pistons may not clear the head after you throw in the longer stroke crank. You're right though- you'd want to deshroud the head some anyway (don't HAVE to), and you'll probably want to use custom pistons, so you'd probably be able to make it all work. Using B16 rods, you would have a rod/stroke ratio of 1.65, and I don't know how long the B17 rods are, so I can't give you that number. The 1.54 of the LS and the 1.58 of the GSR block really aren't bad either, and all you need to rev those up high is a good crank girdle and decent rods/pistons and ARP fasteners (or equivalent) to hold it all together. I would personally build a longer stroke engine for less money, and still make the same amount of power (if not more) with fewer revs. Your engine will last longer, and you'll have more torque too. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

02-22-2003, 02:10 AM	#3
B16 Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: yay area, CA Age: 31 Posts: 6,759 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 126	i dont know how that would be considered an ls/vtec cure, the two motors are completely different, the ls/vtec has an under-square design, while the b16 with a b17 crank would be almost a perfect square (81mm bore x 81.4mm stroke) i've thought of putting a b17 crank in my b16, it would be a nice setup, basically makes it a b17 the blocks are the same. that motor would be great at the high revs like you said, being an 85x81.4 (b16 being 81x77.4) which would actually be pretty much the same geometry as the b16 __________________ 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 8 2004 BMW 325i 2000 Mercedes Benz ML 430 1994 Honda Civic Del Sol VTEC (race kaa)

02-22-2003, 02:42 AM	#5
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	Oh yeah- while I'm at it, let me throw this one at you... 87mm bore x 95mm stroke, 1.75 rod/stroke ratio in a B block. You get 2259cc out of it, then make the head breathe all the way up to 10k (who knows if it can), and you get boatloads of power without resorting to boost or juice. It's feasible. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

02-22-2003, 02:51 AM	#6
SixtySecondAssassin Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,071 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 25	with that r/s ratio the pistons would smash the valves __________________ .....deagle.....


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02-22-2003, 10:08 AM	#8
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	wow calesta, ur a geneus....guy i love math, but man u took it extreme...i guess thats why ur en engineer eh but ya this is the article i found...i thought it would be better if u actually read it http://www.hondastyle.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=33 __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 11:48 AM	#10
lsvtec GNU/Linux Evangelist Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Greater Portland, OR Posts: 5,497 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: The Cheapest Road Bicycle I could get Rep Power: 69	That guy really needs to quit writing "articles". First, his R/S article was complete bullshit and showed that he didn't really understand what he was talking about. Now with this proposed build he neglects to say that the decreased stroke leads to decreased torque. His power numbers are off for a "stock" LSVTEC (what is stock??? if you were dumb enough to build an LSVTEC with all the parts he has listed, you deserve the blown engine). Now for the real meter. His pricing is lame. For the B16 with B17 crank bored to 86mm: Assume you found a 1st gen B16 for cheap like I did: $650 no tranny, $950 with tranny Sleeves + install approx. $1000 Rods $350 (eagle forged) Endyn pistons $550 That comes to $2850 I did my first LSVTEC with LS rods and B16 pistons, ITR cams, ITR water & oil pump, + a host of other goodies for right around $2500 and had more power than this thing using B16A1 cams will. __________________ v3sw7+9Chw6ln3pr7Ock4ma9w3TXm3l7GDF i7Ce6+8t4MNb8Oen6g6RAOa26s5MRp6 hackerkey.com

02-22-2003, 01:08 PM	#11
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	lol, yeah i knew something was up wit that build....can u have an 86mm bore (reseleeved) with an ls or gsr crank? __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 01:21 PM	#12
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	oh the length of b17a rods is the same as b18a/b i found it at this site http://www.cdpautomachine.com/ecatalog/importrods.html __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 01:26 PM	#13
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	i was doing sum calculations for calesta's motor (87mm x 95mm); to get a ratio of 1.75 u would need rods with the length of 6.65", stock rods are 5.394" - difference of 1.256" i was just wondering how would u compensate ur block, head, valves, etc for a 1.256" increase in length. __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 02:18 PM	#14
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	1.25"!!!!!!!! Thats a lot of space. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

02-22-2003, 02:30 PM	#15
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	ya u think....my god ur hood probably wont even close i was looking at sum site, c-speedracing.com and using there compression ratio test....first off i dunno where ur gonna get a head gasket to fill that space...and second...if i did my calculations right...and im still not sure about this so dont quote me on it but i think the compression ratio will be 3:1 __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 03:12 PM	#16
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	"and the 1.58 of the GSR block" ( i dunno how to quote but basically calesta said this) i read that the length of gsr rods are 5.43" which is approx 135.75mm, if this is so then the ratio would be approx 1.56. Anyways whether is the tru length and ratio....basically my question is whats the longest rods (custom) u could put in a gsr, 87.2mm stroke...without worring too much about the piston hitting the valves. __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

02-22-2003, 03:57 PM	#17
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	137.9mm __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

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02-22-2003, 06:17 PM	#18
22crazy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 307 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	thanx __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

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