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mdixonjam · 06-10-2005, 06:25 AM

I have a LS/VTEC that I would like to build up to about 225 HP naturally aspirated, but I would like to do this safely and reliably.

I am interested in knowing how much internal upgrades do I need such as with the valve train, pistons, rods, bolts, cams, etc. Also ECU, ignition and fuel upgrades and tuning options play a big part as well.

Would appreciate all your feedback on the best approach to take.

Thanks

sohcslammer · 06-11-2005, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mdixonjam@Jun 10 2005, 05:25 AM
I have a LS/VTEC that I would like to build up to about 225 HP naturally aspirated, but I would like to do this safely and reliably.

I am interested in knowing how much internal upgrades do I need such as with the valve train, pistons, rods, bolts, cams, etc. Also ECU, ignition and fuel upgrades and tuning options play a big part as well.

Would appreciate all your feedback on the best approach to take.

Thanks

Quoted post

Check the setup listed in my signature. Once I do the head work, put in some real cams and valvetrain, get a header and some exhaust, I plan on putting down @ 210 to the wheel. That's a 1.9 litre LS/VTEC @ 11.6:1. (I know my sig says 11.8:1 but it ended up being closer to 11.6:1, those are just the numbers endyn stated) I also don't really have shit for engine management, just a crappy VAFC, but I am saving for AEM, FAST, or Motec, I haven't decided yet. (And I may spend the money on some ITBs anyway

)

85 mm bore would make much more torque, but I didn't want to spend the money on sleeves. I have also heard some bad stuff about sleeves, but that's a whole other story....

I actually get my car back this week sometime, then I have to break it in for 500 miles because I have a new clutch too, so I will post dynos in about 2 weeks. I expect my motor to put down around 180 once i get it broken in, with stock exhaust manifold, stock exhaust, ctr cams, stock head, and a shitty tune.

225 hp to the wheel is much harder than 225 to the flywheel, but it's very do-able. 85mm with 12:1 compression and some decent cams and you are pretty much there.....

JayDeeEmDC4 · 06-11-2005, 10:54 AM

i am also building an allmomtor lsvtec @ the moment, what can I also do to increase the displacement with out having to change sleeves?

sohcslammer · 06-11-2005, 11:26 AM

Honda recomends not going over 81.25 mm. 81.5mm is about the limit though, anything more and you will have to sleeve....

97CTR · 06-12-2005, 11:33 AM

why EMS FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones. Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

225whp, 84-85mm sleeves with over 12:1 compression. Pick up some big cams, good tuner

sohcslammer · 06-12-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 10:33 AM
why EMS FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones.* Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

Quoted post

Because despite what you think, hondata, and uberdata (i know nothing of crome) are still just piggyback systems, while the 3 I named are REAL standalone engine managment units. Not to mention I get really good prices on AEM and FAST, although Motec would be a little pricey for me. I will probably go with the AEM system just for the ease of use. Especially since I just got a KILLER deal on a set of ITBs.....

Bl6CRX · 06-12-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 08:33 AM
why EMS [edit i think you meant to say AEM] FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones. Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

I agree with Sohcslammer, the fact of the matter is that these systems are far superior to hondata or uberdata (I don't know much of anything about Crome). Especially the Motec systems. I mean even mr.hondata himself, Eric Aguliar, switched over to a Motec system on his all motor car. For 225+whp NA setups a more advanced systems is the best choice. Sure you can do it cheaper, but when your putting down serious power you don't wanna be half-assing things.

sohcslammer · 06-12-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bl6CRX+Jun 12 2005, 11:17 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bl6CRX @ Jun 12 2005, 11:17 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 08:33 AM
why EMS [edit i think you meant to say AEM] FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones.* Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

I agree with Sohcslammer, the fact of the matter is that these systems are far superior to hondata or uberdata (I don't know much of anything about Crome). Especially the Motec systems. I mean even mr.hondata himself, Eric Aguliar, switched over to a Motec system on his all motor car. For 225+whp NA setups a more advanced systems is the best choice. Sure you can do it cheaper, but when your putting down serious power you don't wanna be half-assing things.

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]

CRXSI91 · 06-13-2005, 12:46 AM

i dont know about "putting down serious power" requiring you to use "motec"...in the Forced induction world (the easier world

) i dont know how many 200 300 and 400 horsepower hondas i see running hondata systems...theres nothing wrong with a piggy back..its just with all motor..u gotta watch what the fuck your doing...with boost...all u gotta do is have a strong bottom end or sick tuning really.

UDT · 06-13-2005, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bl6CRX+Jun 12 2005, 09:17 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bl6CRX @ Jun 12 2005, 09:17 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 08:33 AM
why EMS [edit i think you meant to say AEM] FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones.* Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

I agree with Sohcslammer, the fact of the matter is that these systems are far superior to hondata or uberdata (I don't know much of anything about Crome). Especially the Motec systems. I mean even mr.hondata himself, Eric Aguliar, switched over to a Motec system on his all motor car. For 225+whp NA setups a more advanced systems is the best choice. Sure you can do it cheaper, but when your putting down serious power you don't wanna be half-assing things.

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]

So i dont get it mike, are you saying you think hondata ETC. ETC. are fine for this type of a situation and that you understand why MR hondata did the switch OR that you think hondata are gonna be fine for this praticular setup?

Im gonna have to say hondata etc etc are gonna be able to run this 220hp LSvtec fine, and even better then fine.

And other then that i was always under the impression that hondata wasint a piggy back set up nor uber or chrome, as far as i know you chip the ECU and then you tune the chip, so i dont see anything piggy back about. See the whole idea about the VAFC is that the ECU is taking commands from it thus making it a piggy back, a secondary priority even though the ECU makes it take presidence. When you chip and tune the ECU there is no secondary system telling the ecu how to run the car, the ECU's main chip has the program in it. If im wrong correct me.

kyleirwin · 06-13-2005, 02:54 AM

if you've got the money and you haven't started buying parts yet... then bump the ls/vtec and spring for a k-series. a stock internal k-series with only intake, header, exhaust and hondata is puttin' down 220 whp and runnin' 12's in full interior eg's. if you think that you might want more out of all motor after you get your fully built b-series done... look into the k. 220 whp... stock.

97CTR · 06-13-2005, 08:19 AM

yeah when the hell did Hondata EVER become a "piggyback" system. Hondata is a standalone engine management system!! There are plenty of 200, 300, 400HP allmotor and boosted engines on Hondata. and uberdata

and

to K series stuff

sohcslammer · 06-13-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UDT+Jun 13 2005, 01:52 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UDT @ Jun 13 2005, 01:52 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Quote:

Originally posted by Bl6CRX@Jun 12 2005, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 08:33 AM
why EMS [edit i think you meant to say AEM] FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones.* Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

I agree with Sohcslammer, the fact of the matter is that these systems are far superior to hondata or uberdata (I don't know much of anything about Crome). Especially the Motec systems. I mean even mr.hondata himself, Eric Aguliar, switched over to a Motec system on his all motor car. For 225+whp NA setups a more advanced systems is the best choice. Sure you can do it cheaper, but when your putting down serious power you don't wanna be half-assing things.

Quoted post

So i dont get it mike, are you saying you think hondata ETC. ETC. are fine for this type of a situation and that you understand why MR hondata did the switch OR that you think hondata are gonna be fine for this praticular setup?

Im gonna have to say hondata etc etc are gonna be able to run this 220hp LSvtec fine, and even better then fine.

And other then that i was always under the impression that hondata wasint a piggy back set up nor uber or chrome, as far as i know you chip the ECU and then you tune the chip, so i dont see anything piggy back about. See the whole idea about the VAFC is that the ECU is taking commands from it thus making it a piggy back, a secondary priority even though the ECU makes it take presidence. When you chip and tune the ECU there is no secondary system telling the ecu how to run the car, the ECU's main chip has the program in it. If im wrong correct me.

Quoted post
[/b]

OK Jeff, consider yourself corrected. :P Hondata IS a piggyback system in the sense of the word, your ECU is still there. The AEM unit, as well as the fast, motec and a few others actually REPLACE your ECU making it a ..... (drumroll please) .... Stand Alone enging management unit.

<!--QuoteBegin-97CTR@Jun 13 2005, 07:19 AM
yeah when the hell did Hondata EVER become a "piggyback" system. Hondata is a standalone engine management system!! There are plenty of 200, 300, 400HP allmotor and boosted engines on Hondata. and uberdata

and to K series stuff

Quoted post
[/quote]

Can't argue with the K series except for the $$$$$. But yes, people run 12s like it's their job with a stock K series in an EG. It should come with a fucking guaranty or something... "Run 12s or your money back!"

Hondata = piggyback. Do some reserch, call some real tuners. I'm not saying it isn't MORE than capable of running a 220 hp LS/VTEC, I'm saying I want a real EMS.

UDT · 06-13-2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sohcslammer+Jun 13 2005, 09:33 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sohcslammer @ Jun 13 2005, 09:33 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Quote:

Originally posted by UDT@Jun 13 2005, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bl6CRX@Jun 12 2005, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 08:33 AM
why EMS [edit i think you meant to say AEM] FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones.* Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

I agree with Sohcslammer, the fact of the matter is that these systems are far superior to hondata or uberdata (I don't know much of anything about Crome). Especially the Motec systems. I mean even mr.hondata himself, Eric Aguliar, switched over to a Motec system on his all motor car. For 225+whp NA setups a more advanced systems is the best choice. Sure you can do it cheaper, but when your putting down serious power you don't wanna be half-assing things.

Quoted post

So i dont get it mike, are you saying you think hondata ETC. ETC. are fine for this type of a situation and that you understand why MR hondata did the switch OR that you think hondata are gonna be fine for this praticular setup?

Im gonna have to say hondata etc etc are gonna be able to run this 220hp LSvtec fine, and even better then fine.

And other then that i was always under the impression that hondata wasint a piggy back set up nor uber or chrome, as far as i know you chip the ECU and then you tune the chip, so i dont see anything piggy back about. See the whole idea about the VAFC is that the ECU is taking commands from it thus making it a piggy back, a secondary priority even though the ECU makes it take presidence. When you chip and tune the ECU there is no secondary system telling the ecu how to run the car, the ECU's main chip has the program in it. If im wrong correct me.

Quoted post

OK Jeff, consider yourself corrected. :P Hondata IS a piggyback system in the sense of the word, your ECU is still there. The AEM unit, as well as the fast, motec and a few others actually REPLACE your ECU making it a ..... (drumroll please) .... Stand Alone enging management unit.

<!--QuoteBegin-97CTR@Jun 13 2005, 07:19 AM
yeah when the hell did Hondata EVER become a "piggyback" system.* Hondata is a standalone engine management system!! There are plenty of 200, 300, 400HP allmotor and boosted engines on Hondata.* and uberdata

and* * * to K series stuff

Quoted post

Can't argue with the K series except for the $$$$$. But yes, people run 12s like it's their job with a stock K series in an EG. It should come with a fucking guaranty or something... "Run 12s or your money back!"

Hondata = piggyback. Do some reserch, call some real tuners. I'm not saying it isn't MORE than capable of running a 220 hp LS/VTEC, I'm saying I want a real EMS.

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]

Yeah but because AEM replaces the hole unit does not mean that another isint. Im gonna say hondata still isint a piggy back, but that aem is a more advanced form of a stand alone engine management. You guys are using the word piggy back too loosly. And are gonna cause misconception.

I have personly chipped and worked with the ECU's so i like to think i have a good grasp on all of it.

formby · 06-13-2005, 02:09 PM

i have never heard of anyone say that hondata is a piggy back....but hey what he said does make a little sence

Bl6CRX · 06-13-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UDT@Jun 13 2005, 10:41 AM

I have personly chipped and worked with the ECU's so i like to think i have a good grasp on all of it.

Quoted post

LOL!!!

Shouldn't that be that you have chipped one ecu?

And didn't you mess that one up?

I'll post more about this thread later, but Im at work and had to call your ass out on this one.

97CTR · 06-13-2005, 05:33 PM

Alright someone has the wrong idea of a piggyback. A piggy back system changes the input signals that the stock ecu receives from the engine. Thus fooling the ecu to beleive that different conditions exist within the engine. Just because a hondata unit is attatched to the ecu and it looks to be riding along like a "piggyback" does NOT make it a piggyback system. Do some research, call some real tuners :P

formby · 06-13-2005, 05:54 PM

driver1 · 06-13-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sohcslammer+Jun 12 2005, 11:05 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sohcslammer @ Jun 12 2005, 11:05 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-97CTR@Jun 12 2005, 10:33 AM
why EMS FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones. Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome

Quoted post

Because despite what you think, hondata, and uberdata (i know nothing of crome) are still just piggyback systems, while the 3 I named are REAL standalone engine managment units. Not to mention I get really good prices on AEM and FAST, although Motec would be a little pricey for me. I will probably go with the AEM system just for the ease of use. Especially since I just got a KILLER deal on a set of ITBs.....

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]

you are simply amazing

UDT · 06-13-2005, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bl6CRX+Jun 13 2005, 12:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bl6CRX @ Jun 13 2005, 12:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-UDT@Jun 13 2005, 10:41 AM

I have personly chipped and worked with the ECU's so i like to think i have a good grasp on all of it.

Quoted post

LOL!!!

Shouldn't that be that you have chipped one ecu?

And didn't you mess that one up?

I'll post more about this thread later, but Im at work and had to call your ass out on this one.

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]

I fixed it, it was a cold joint. And no, i have since chipped two more...... smart ass

UDT · 06-13-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 97CTR@Jun 13 2005, 02:33 PM
Alright someone has the wrong idea of a piggyback. A piggy back system changes the input signals that the stock ecu receives from the engine. Thus fooling the ecu to beleive that different conditions exist within the engine. Just because a hondata unit is attatched to the ecu and it looks to be riding along like a "piggyback" does NOT make it a piggyback system. Do some research, call some real tuners :P

Quoted post

W3rd

Bl6CRX · 06-13-2005, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UDT@Jun 13 2005, 05:26 PM

I fixed it, it was a cold joint. And no, i have since chipped two more...... smart ass

Quoted post

lol well my bad then. :P

06-11-2005, 10:54 AM	#3
JayDeeEmDC4 Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 78 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 8	i am also building an allmomtor lsvtec @ the moment, what can I also do to increase the displacement with out having to change sleeves? __________________ 92' DA9 JDM B16 <u>Garage Sale</u> OBD1 Dizzy -- VERY CLEAN!! $75+Shipping DA OEM Headlights -- Great Cond. No Cracks! $70+Shipping DA Gauge Cluster -- $60+Shipping DC Complete Wiper Motor -- $25+Shipping DA Complete Cruise Control -- $20+Shipping DA GSR Driver Side Motor Mount w/ Energy Suspension Insert -- $50 <u>GREAT DEAL!!!</u> 93 DA Cherry Red Taillights -- $75+Shipping

06-11-2005, 11:26 AM	#4
sohcslammer Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Bay Area Posts: 2,193 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 33	Honda recomends not going over 81.25 mm. 81.5mm is about the limit though, anything more and you will have to sleeve.... __________________ Latest project - 1 fucking fast 99 SI

06-12-2005, 11:33 AM	#5
97CTR Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 745 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	why EMS FAST or MOTEC, you just picked the three most expensive ones. Why not Hondata, Uberdata (free), Crome 225whp, 84-85mm sleeves with over 12:1 compression. Pick up some big cams, good tuner __________________ 97 ex coupe Wire tuck in progress....

06-13-2005, 12:46 AM	#9
CRXSI91 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 386 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 12	i dont know about "putting down serious power" requiring you to use "motec"...in the Forced induction world (the easier world ) i dont know how many 200 300 and 400 horsepower hondas i see running hondata systems...theres nothing wrong with a piggy back..its just with all motor..u gotta watch what the fuck your doing...with boost...all u gotta do is have a strong bottom end or sick tuning really. __________________ 91 Crx Si : Mini me swap - SOLD. 91 Crx HF: N/A LS - SOLD. 93 Cx hatch : LS turbo - SOLD. 94 Integra RS - Bone stock. Soon to be boostin....

06-13-2005, 02:54 AM	#11
kyleirwin Retired OG Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vegas Age: 21 Posts: 2,422 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Integra, Tahoe Rep Power: 41	if you've got the money and you haven't started buying parts yet... then bump the ls/vtec and spring for a k-series. a stock internal k-series with only intake, header, exhaust and hondata is puttin' down 220 whp and runnin' 12's in full interior eg's. if you think that you might want more out of all motor after you get your fully built b-series done... look into the k. 220 whp... stock. __________________ Kyle I. Collins, PmD.


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06-10-2005, 06:25 AM	#1
mdixonjam Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Kingston, Jamaica & Miami, FL Posts: 34 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 0	I have a LS/VTEC that I would like to build up to about 225 HP naturally aspirated, but I would like to do this safely and reliably. I am interested in knowing how much internal upgrades do I need such as with the valve train, pistons, rods, bolts, cams, etc. Also ECU, ignition and fuel upgrades and tuning options play a big part as well. Would appreciate all your feedback on the best approach to take. Thanks

06-13-2005, 08:19 AM	#12
97CTR Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 745 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	yeah when the hell did Hondata EVER become a "piggyback" system. Hondata is a standalone engine management system!! There are plenty of 200, 300, 400HP allmotor and boosted engines on Hondata. and uberdata and to K series stuff __________________ 97 ex coupe Wire tuck in progress....

06-13-2005, 02:09 PM	#15
formby learning in progress Join Date: Feb 2003 Age: 26 Posts: 5,710 iTrader: 4 / 100% Ride: 00' Montero sport, 99' lsv civic Rep Power: 91	i have never heard of anyone say that hondata is a piggy back....but hey what he said does make a little sence __________________ SOMETIMES IN LIFE WE ALL NEED CHANGE! http://pandora.com/

06-13-2005, 05:33 PM	#17
97CTR Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 745 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 18	Alright someone has the wrong idea of a piggyback. A piggy back system changes the input signals that the stock ecu receives from the engine. Thus fooling the ecu to beleive that different conditions exist within the engine. Just because a hondata unit is attatched to the ecu and it looks to be riding along like a "piggyback" does NOT make it a piggyback system. Do some research, call some real tuners :P __________________ 97 ex coupe Wire tuck in progress....

06-13-2005, 05:54 PM	#18
formby learning in progress Join Date: Feb 2003 Age: 26 Posts: 5,710 iTrader: 4 / 100% Ride: 00' Montero sport, 99' lsv civic Rep Power: 91	__________________ SOMETIMES IN LIFE WE ALL NEED CHANGE! http://pandora.com/

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How to build 220 HP with LS/VTEC