laoboisosilly

im about to rebuild my b16a2 and i was wondering what do i have to do to install aftermarket pistons and rods? do i have to do some special machining or can i just install it by the helms manual and plastigage everything?

laoboisosilly

nah im not planning on overboring but might do a light hone, im just planning on replacing all the main and rod bearings and figured while im down there mind as well replace the stock rods and pistons with stronger ones

laoboisosilly

thanks, +rep for you

hondasniper

Make sure if you get forged pistons, to sleeve your block. A basic replacement sleeve is fine (generally $100-130 for the sleeves and $125-150 for the install. It all depends on the machine shop). Good luck!

laoboisosilly

where can i find replacement sleeves, honda? is it actually mandatory to resleeve to the block to use forged internals? or can i use stock sleeves and everything will be fine?

laoboisosilly

oh, cool then

hondasniper

NONONO. You can run the forged pistons, but it wont last. You need iron sleeves to run forged pistons. You can run cast aluminum pistons on stock sleeves and iron sleeves, but it doesn't work the other way around. You can listen to him if you want, but you'll just end up like the other people we had to rebuild their motors cuz they ran forged pistons on stock sleeves.

hondasniper

your machine shop should be able to get some sleeves for you.

laoboisosilly

where can i find iron sleeves for the cheap? the only iron sleeves i know of is the ones that darton, aebs, golden eagle, and benson makes,and those are hella expensive haha, i duno of any other

hcivic.com

what the fuck are you talking about.
]Ignore the fuck head. Just remeber depending on the tyle of piston and rod you may needs a shop to press the wrist pins in for you. Also enshure the pistons and rods come balanced

laoboisosilly

kool beanz, ill see how everything goes when i start the rebuild in a month or two hahaha but thx for the help yall

turb2o_vtec

No need for sleeve. Forge piston and rods is good enough. Not a bad idea to sleeve if you got the money. But not recommand.

__________________
D16z6 turbo- 14.2 @ 97 MPH 1/4 mile: RETIRE
B20vtec Turbo in the making....

hondasniper

Ok. I only work on fuckin motors that run 7 in a quarter all day and flatline the dyno at 1100hp. I'll get you the exact details tomorrow why you shouldn't.

hondasniper

look what buh_buh has to say in the middle of this thread. I'll find out tomorrow who you can get some sleeves from. I believe we get ours from either liberty or race engineering. I'll get back to you on that.

forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-60447.html

hondasniper

Ok. The stock sleeves are coated Nickel Ceramic type of material. Half of the problem is that the pistons can hurt the coating and the rings are the other half of the problem. I've heard that weisco makes some pistons and rings that can go with the stock sleeves that won't hurt the coating. Give them a call. I'm sure that they'll be more than happy to help you. BTW, these are the people that I work with. I helped build the motor in the white camaro with the 2 red stripes. There are a couple of more outlaws that I help and others that aren't outlaws as well.

Quick 8 Outlaws : The World's Fastest Automatics! : Photo Gallery

Here's our car

http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006...t/img_4219.htm
http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006...n/_g2l8229.htm
http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006...n/_g2l8230.htm

Exodus

I'm basically certain that you do not need to have the block sleeved to use forged internals.

I would recommend that you either get the crank balanced (with the stock damper on), or get the crank balanced and get a Fluidampr (if you choose the latter, naturally it would be balanced with the Fluidampr on). Forged internals are generally weighted well, but the crank will need to be neutral balanced to avoid any problems (like premature bearing wear). The crank is balanced from the factory with a stock flywheel, damper, rods and pistons. It assumes those are there to remain in good balance, if you change one thing, you need to make sure everything else is working TOGETHER and not against each other. You'll also want a lightweight flywheel and a clutch\pressure plate upgrade (recommend Clutch Masters products) as this will keep all of the rotating components balanced (provided you know that the new flywheel is balanced, some cheaper companies sell unbalanced pieces).

Select bearings in the middle of Honda's color chart.

Use Total Seal piston rings.

Use a Cometic head gasket as well.

If you are choosing forced induction at a later date, piston selection and head gasket thickness selection are important NOW.

You should also have a machine shop check the flatness of the deck surfaces of the block and head. Find out if you are warped disassembled, not at 8,000rpms. If you have the mating surfaces milled for any reason, take at least the amount removed from the head off of the alignment dowels, otherwise, they'll lift the head up creating an improper seal with the head gasket.

I don't think you are going to walk away from this rebuild "stock". I don't believe you can just have a fresh overhaul, and oh, my rods and pistons are stronger too! You may one to consider two things:

- Fresh OE rebuild. Happy stock engine! Save your money for the building of it, get all of your parts at once and have it machined\assembled and ready to go many miles without being broke apart again.

- Build halfway now (with rods and pistons), and one day tear it back down to finish what you started (more expensive\time consuming).

Look at everything you do to your car as a job. When you do a job, on a car, generally (not always), the best rule to follow is finish what you start before you fire the engine. I wouldn't put a new set of coilovers on my car without buying a camber kit, would you? Why rape the tires? Cause you want to be slammed NOW NOW NOW? That type of impatience and immaturity can cost you thousands, as it does to thousands of now disillusioned former car enthusiasts who dump thousands into their ride and due to oversights, lose everything and go back to driving stuff like beat Cavaliers and never do more than put gas in it because they think working on their car is a waste.

Think about this, the engineers at Honda, they are smarter than you. And me. And everyone else who tinkers with their engines. They PROBABLY know some things we don't, and probably don't tell us those things because they are part of a business in a competitive market. Yeah, it sucks when they can't tell us their secrets, like those about the B20, whom everyone thinks is worthless because of the weak sleeves (popular idiocy, and yes, I'm aware a handful of tuners out the are more well informed about this engine than most), or the intricacies of the A6 and the care in design and production that went into it.

Shit, I don't even know all about that stuff. I'm still young and learning. But what I do know, is that I DON'T know. And neither do you, or anyone else that posts here, or lives outside of the walls of current mechanical engineering. The best thing to do when building an engine is let someone else do it, that knows what they are doing if you don't. It's great to learn by failing, it's called experience, but it shouldn't be at the expense of your finances. If you are this interested, go to school and learn on free engines that you can break all day for free from teachers whom you pay to spill their knowledge in tasty little digestible bite-sized easy to understand trinkets that fit into your unknowing brain. We all like to think we are smart, but we're all stupid. There's no such thing as smart, just less stupid than before.

Figure out what you want out of "your" engine, be it this B16, or whatever your goal engine becomes, but figure that out first before you play with it, it's less costly, less time consuming, less stressful and most importantly, the most enjoyable way. I watch as other enthusiasts lick their chops when new parts come in the mail and they install each one, one at a time. It's better to modify a system (suspension system, engine system, brake system, etc..) AS a system. Aside from the benefits of saved time money and energy, the increase in performance from start to finish is far greater when a small room of parts disappears onto your car then when you do it one by one. I know everyone loves to think they can really "FEEL" that strut bar when it's the first, and I mean FIRST mod their new car is getting, but that's just the anticipation fooling yourself, denying you of the heart break when your sub concious understands that you can't realize the full potential of minimal parts additions, and knows that you don't know that, but would think you just wasted your money, if you didn't "FEEL" the difference.

It's just cars and working on them people, this is way too easy of a thing to do with your time and money to be fretting over it so much.

hondasniper

Well if that's the case, then my bad. I was told by someone that comes into the shop that they had the same style sleeves. I read a while ago that you could run forged internals, but this guy insisted that you couldn't. I was going to just put forged internals into my b16 with a block guard, but I bought the darton sleeves since I was convinced that the blocks had the same style sleeves. Well, I changed my mind from all motor to full boost so I'll need them anywayz. I learned something new today.

BTW exodus...good point. I'm doing the exact same thing. buying all my parts first before I do the build. Patience is key. My friend who is the master at this who went to school for all the metals tech and machine tool...etc is the one who is going to be standing over my shoulder to make sure that I do everything right, from the tight tolerances, to the fine tuning. He has already shown me a lot. Its gonna be fun to run some high boost...the right way...the first time.

hondasniper

Yea man. Go for it. The b16 has cast iron sleeves already. I'm doing tons of homework tonight. Stuffing my face in bunch of books . Thanks Blanco for slapping some sense into me. :-D

Exodus

Read ENDYN's website thoroughly prior to your build. There is SO MUCH to learn there.

laoboisosilly

whoaaaa hahaha, good stuff up there, but out of curiosity, how power can i squeeze out of a bone stock, all oem parts and internals, b16a2?

Exodus

No two engines are created equally.

I've personally witnessed a FACTORY D16A6, valve cover had never even been removed, with 150,000 miles, pull 149WHP on a DynoJet (CLOGGED air filter mind you. once torn down, the stickness was verified as the shop owner was NOT trying to believe the numbers he was seeing). Honda's known to have the occasional "freak" engine floating around the street.

You'd be surprised how much tuning there is left to do on a stock engine, even the B16s and B18C5s. Tuning alone can always crank out a few extra ponies from stock. As far as the build, a fully balanced, well assembled bottom end, would free up some power for sure. I wouldn't expect to ever make more than 160WHP without anything more than bolt-ons though. If you want to use all OE parts, you can build a frankenstein, but, that entails a rebuild, and machine work for maximum efficiency, and even then you'll be hard pressed to supersede the power of a B18C5 (as most of the best OE B-series parts come from it, unless of course you choose to go B20\VTEC, in which case, you could realize around 200WHP mostly stock.)

I would concentrate on an overhaul for now to ensure your engine's current health and health moving forward. Come up with a game plan before you build.. rome wasn't built in a day ya know... or something like that... yeah...

Exodus

I concede to your wisdom.

I try to look at the build of a particular car as objectively as possible. Mostly, I analyze the steps it takes to get to one's end goal for the vehicle and evaluate the potential cost for it. I've learned in my own experience that most car enthusiasts often become disappointed at the cost of their modifications to their car because they frequently take a "stage" route to building. Here's what I mean:

Let's say someone joins the tuning crowd with a bone stock Civic. When they add mods to it, it's generally a strut bar, intake\header\exhaust, and a lot of other light, basically worthless by themselves bolt-on modifications. People lower their cars without camber kits, on stock struts, they buy a cam and leave the head and ECU stock, never touch the fuel or ignition until the engine won't run properly, install part by part on their car without ever considering the effects of the particular change they are making.

If you want Progress Group Coilovers, the CHEAPEST route to getting there is not EVER settling before you buy them. A lot of people in my time I have seen settle for less until they can get better parts. So, instead of those Progress units, they buy Drop Zone springs, put them on stock struts, and cost themselves a whole lot of money in labor for installation, in tires once they wear, in struts once they give, and the labor to replace all of those, not to mention the cost of just replacing the tires and the like. It costs less to buy what you want and never settle for less.

I try to be as economically oriented as possible, using my own mistakes as a great teacher, and carefully observing the tuning community around me. I suppose my current view on project build itinerary is still a bit skewed, and I'm always willing to be corrected, so please, do as you have been and step up when I get the wacky-mouth goin' on. I just believe that when people attack an engine build, they want too much for their budget and often have unrealistic goals for power, longevity and further upgradability with their incessant wants for something NOW because they feel like they are behind in progress compared to their friends in the community. I encourage people to build once because I've learned that it's more gratifying to have that "finished" feeling, and not to be standing at cruise-ins talking more about what you still need to do, rather than what you've done.

I appreciate your comment, Blanco, and I will adjust my thinking and advice accordingly. I'm just glad your on this board, it's nice feeling like I'm not the smartest one, I'd rather learn than teach myself, but I have this insatiable need to help others, so I'm caught in the middle.

I'll review this thread after work and come up with some better potential builds for the threat starter to consider that are more economical and have great potential expandability, affording them performance now for less money to tide them over until they've saved enough to add on.

GTG folks!

Exodus

I've just always thought why put yourself in the hole $500 when you want $3000 worth of suspension you know? Then it takes $3500 to get where you want to have marginal performance gains in between (unless you find a great deal, in which case, $500 can go a long way and instead you would have >marginal gains to be content with until you have $3000 laying around. And actually, going with your logic, which is proving to be more efficient than mine, by the time the $500 suspension became inadequate and you had saved the $3000, the current cost of the $3000 suspension would have gone down, allowing you to achieve BETTER SOONER! So basically, your idea is simply more economic per unit of time and satisfaction is greater throughout! Excellent work I say. Wow, I kinda had a mid paragraph epiphany in there, lol)

However, there are elements where further planning is more economic considering not only funds, but time and effort as well. That's why in mAUTOfying there is a lot of thought and consideration necessary to achieve the optimal experience for oneself. Combining the two ideas, it's better to spend a little on your suspension now to have at least SOMETHING while you are waiting for the more expensive suspension, but make sure you are being calculative and not just doing something like adding springs, but no camber kit and struts. You can do a set of struts, springs, and a camber kit + an alignment after it for far less than the cost of the more expensive suspension, so you are not half assing the build, but it will tide you over effectively until you can afford it, thus, both concepts reach a mutual harmony.

The same concepts can be applied to engine building. The upgradability of your platform (base block\head\intake\exhaust\tranny\el ectronics combo) is always a major avenue of consideration. Once again, the principles Blanco and I just discussed are of importance here for maximum project economy.

You want something now, know what you want in the future, so you must pursue your current actions with some thought. To parallel the suspension example, let's talk about an LS\VTEC build with a future plan for turbo-charging. The turbo setup is the $3000 suspension, and the current build is the $500 suspension. What I was talking about with current platform upgradability for the future comes into play here. Yeah, you want to build it SOME now, but how is your currently planned build relevant to the future status of your engine?

Preparing the block is key. Generally, LS\VTEC builders choose to use B16 heads. GSR heads have increased in popularity and the occasional slip-ups of the factory hand porting\polishing of the B18C5 heads mixed with their larger price tag generally drive people back to the B16 for it's comparable casting quality, factory flow and proven performance for far less money and greater availability. Let's assume for this example a B18A1 block, and a B16A head.

The block's preparation here is key as future plans of boost are present. The head is generally well fussed over coming from the factory, so upgrading it now will only cause you to spend more money sooner during the project. It will perform reasonably for a while over your stock power, leaving the block the most sensible item to focus on now. This would be a time to note that doing it right the first time is ALWAYS the number one way to guarantee the minimum expenditure of money, effort and time.

You want strength in the bottom end for a turbo-charged application. Beyond strength, there is engine health and longevity to consider, as well as compression ratio, r\s ratio, rev capability, oiling, and a few other issues of minimal concern at this point. Posting is a highly recommended process for engines receiving no greater than 20psi. A block girdle is also well-backed by most engine builders and people running non-stock engine combinations, especially those requiring greater bottom end strength. The cost of sleeving and the time it takes are impractical for most street engine applications and is heavily outweighed in dollar per performance value considerations compared to posting and adding a block guard.

A balanced rotating assembly is paramount for proper engine health. Worn\spun bearings can be avoided this way as well as a numerous amount of other detrimental bottom end conditions that are available to occur (most of which I can't recall now, but a balanced bottom end, mixed with the strength of posts and a guard are enough protection for my sanity if I were personally running boost, especially above 10psi). A Fluidampr pulley, or a stock piece in good or greater condition, and a lightweight flywheel (which are generally balanced by the way they are made) are the finishing touches to a properly balanced bottom end. The only other factors here are the weights of the rods\pistons\pins etc..

The factory LS crank and pistons would be more than acceptable for this application, provided it's well tuned and not destined to reach over 250WHP at the time of their use. Since in this example, the turbo-charger wouldn't be added without replacement of the pistons\rods, the factory rods are more than sufficient for the "waiting" period of this build (which is post build, pre turbo-charging\rebuild).

ARP rod bolts and head studs at this point in history, for this engine combination, should be considered as necessary as oil if they aren't by now.

Proper component selection due to mixed engine parts is key. It should be generally well know that the GSR water pump\timing belt are necessary (even with the B16 head) and an ITR oil pump is the best OE choice (ENDYN offers a reworking of the ITR oil pumps for all of the oiling efficiency improvements you will need for a while, staving you off until you are turbo-charged, at which time, you would buy a Moroso or comparable pan and pick up and install simultaneously.) The head-gasket should match the block and the dowel pin situation needs to be figured out before assembly and selection of the head-gasket.

I'm going to do a brief aside here to talk about VTEC head additions and supplying the additional oil\mating the head to the block here.

For the last couple of years Golden Eagle has offered a complete LS\VTEC conversion System which is applicable to the B20\VTEC setup as well. It utilizes a sandwhich plate on the rear of the block, a SSB line to the head, a reworked OE head-gasket (for dowel pin alignment\fitment and bore corrections) and tapered dowel pins to alleviate the need for machining the head\block to mate them together (the alignment dowel sizes differ between the VTEC head and the non VTEC block, the tapered pins stop you from having to open up the smaller holes to match the larger, creating an almost irreversible modification to the head. The head gaskets obviously differ then at the dowel holes so the conversion system has worked all of this out rather well).

ENDYN has offered a premium quality oil plumbing kit to the public, and I would suggest using that instead, a Cometic head gasket matching your final bore size and thickness needs, and the Golden Eagle dowel pins that are sold separately. This will make the engine combo other wise "stock" in function and compatibility.

You should buy pistons during the first portion of the build. They need to match the bore you want, have VTEC sized (or adequately, however you want to put it) valve reliefs, and are at the level of compression you want. The head-gasket will accommodate any further compression changes you'd like to make, as would machining the block deck or head deck. These calculations need to be made prior to installation, as well as ccing the chambers and figuring other specs (like piston\valve clearance, ticking room, etc..).

If you are going to bore the cylinders EVER, now is the time to do it to have it out of the way for when you add more to your engine later. I recommend 81.5-82mm. 81.5mm seems to be the most popular choice and best for the sleeves. So, be sure to order the correct pistons, corrected bore head-gasket, and make sure to work out the piston\cylinder wall clearances as well. Everything should rotate freely at the end.

I recommend Roller Wave pistons from ENDYN, have them coat the skirts, and make sure you index the rings (instructions on their site) ((they offer Total Seal piston ring packages with their pistons, these are the best)).

The crosshatch of the cylinders needs to be at 60\30 degrees to seat the rings well post install.

At this point, your bottom end will be ready for boost. It's now strong, balanced, and "needs" virtually nothing to accept the addition of the turbo-charger, effectively creating little or no need to change anything about your block when you add the FI setup.

The only change I recommend making to the head, or that area of the engine at this point (once again, as OE performance is adequate pre-turboing), is adding adj. fpr & gauge, as well as cam gears. Running the computer on advanced program is recommended at this point as well, as post assembly, with mostly stock engine components (those added for strength and reliability) you will still have many ponies to tweak out as you correct the A\F and timing. Once this is complete, you will be able to reliably run the engine on the street without worries of catastrophic failure, to about 8,400rpms if I'm not mistaken, belting out similar power to an ITR.

With the addition of a turbo-charger, I'd recommend you upgrade the head to some sort of stage1 package and tune, without doing any machine work (porting\etc..) and complete the tune\functionality of the engine to establish it's reliability\drivability, while being able to use current performance data to point you in the right direction for more ramped up cams\valvetrain, with matching port work. You will get away with good power increases just updating the boltable parts and not doing any machine work. Most stage1 kits seem to be configured well for light turbo charging applications, and when you start off with the kit, you shouldn't realistically be running more than 8lbs to break her in and begin to fuss over your setup.

The Motorola 2.5 BAR MAP sensor has replaced the GM 3 BAR, buy one when you exceed 8lbs (not necessary till approx 15, but recommended).

The gauges you'll want to consider running, before and after turbo-charging dependent:

oil pressure
oil temperature
water pressure
voltmeter
EGT
Boost prs.
(do NOT waste your money on A\F, tach, water temp... you have them factory and they are not that far off)
(also, don't waste your funds on a VAFC)

I've heard audible knock warning sensors hooked up in the cabin of the vehicle which provide adequate warning to discontinue engine load increase or lower it in time to prevent damaging levels of detonation, those are always fantastic.

I recommend the ENDYN modified Bosch fuel pump. The stock injectors will be happiest at 55psi and up to about 130% over stock power of the engine they came from, the 310cc pieces from RC Engineering are great for this, as is the prs. reg. Fuel rail isn't quite necessary until you are forced, and the fuel pump doesn't need to be changed until then either.

Anyway, I hope this came out well. I'd like to see you spend a little bit of money now for SOME performance increases while staying reliable, and upgradable if not already prepared ahead of time for the next steps. This should prove easier on your wallet over time since the heaviness of the different stages is divided up, but the money you put into each stage will provide you with enough before\after differences to keep you happy in between.

I know this isn't near complete, but I haven't had much time to review it and modify anything, it's fairly close in my opinion though to a good itinerary to slowly follow on the way to one's goals.

You study Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, yes Blanco? I've recently rejoined my old studio to pursue cross training in Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and possibly complete my quest for a black belt in Kempo I also study Jeet Kune Do privately.



When you do, consider the ENDYN PCV Breather kit (consider it heavily).

Also, at this time you should consider upgrading the valve train and cams

hondasniper

That's some badass #s. I heard that those "freak" engines are called "Yellow Wednesdays". Where it got it's name from?? IDK. Also, how much power you can get out of any motor all depends on the tune.