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Matts96HB · 04-29-2008, 11:34 PM

I'm working on rebuilding my B18B1 bottom end. Stock crankshaft, new stock main bearings and thrust washers. Here's my problem: I installed the new bearings/washers per service manual specs. I used engine assembly lube in the proper places, I thought I had too much at first so I went back and re-lubed several times, then re-torqued. The problem is, when the main bolts are torqued to 56 ft/lbs (specified in the manual) the crankshaft will not spin. I torqued it down to 50 ft/lbs and it will spin but only for 3 revolutions or so before the crankshaft seizes and it becomes very difficult to get it to spin again.

I know 6 ft lbs doesn't seem like much, but I've seen what a poorly assembled engine looks like. Keep in mind I have checked the new bearings with a micrometer to see if they were the same thickness/width etc. and everything seems to be perfect. I'm just not sure what is going on.

Any help would be appreciated.

dacheat · 04-30-2008, 12:46 PM

in for the read.

Matts96HB · 04-30-2008, 07:24 PM

Ideas anyone? This is really holding up my build.

Ideas welcome.

Matts96HB · 04-30-2008, 09:03 PM

Ok, well I think I may have an idea.

When I was torquing the bolts for the main caps down, I simply torqued them to 56 ft/lbs. I think I may be torquing them wrong. I was told that I might have to torque them down, then back them out, and torque them down again. Can anyone verify this?

Blanco, anyone? I'm at a loss here.

dacheat · 04-30-2008, 10:34 PM

i have a friend at work that should know, i'll ask in the morning and if i get anything out of it i'll post it here for you. i'm sorry all the board heavies seem to be overlooking your thread.

Matts96HB · 04-30-2008, 11:21 PM

Hey, thanks. That would be awesome. I'll also be stopping by a few machine shops tomorrow to see what they have to say. Hopefully a combination of the ideas you and I get will fix something.

dacheat · 04-30-2008, 11:36 PM

werd. i'll check in before lunch tomorrow with whatever i find out.

eg6sir · 04-30-2008, 11:49 PM

its not to busy here at night.. i'm sure Blanco will chime in come morning

Matts96HB · 04-30-2008, 11:58 PM

Yeah, I sure hope I can figure this out. I mean I've checked everything. The bearings are correct, and as far as I can tell they are installed correctly. Which leads me to believe that I'm doing something wrong while torquing them down.

BrokenRex · 05-01-2008, 10:55 AM

did you get the main bearings out of order? each cap is only meant to bolt down to the main it was machined with. did you actually measure the crank journal, or just the bearings themselves? you need to find out what the clearance is in each bearing when torqued. more than likely however, you have one, or more, of your main caps out of place, you're lucky that you found the problem now, rather than later when that bearing scrapes all the oil off the crank and you melt your motor.

try to isolate the problem. hand tighten all the bolts, then just lightly snug them down with your wrench. verify that the crank spins freely, then torque down only one main (there's no risk of damaging the crank this way, like you can with a cam, because there's nothing putting any force on your crank, and there will still be some clearance between the bearing/journal.) check to see if it spins freely. if it does, loosen, then move to the next main. repeat until you find the problem(s). once you do, if it's only one main, try turning the cap 180degrees. if it's two, try to swap the caps between them. if however you numbered them correctly, and you have a problem still, do the test mentioned to see if one of the bearings is bowed in, causing the drag.

dacheat · 05-01-2008, 11:32 AM

the guy at work didn't have much to say on it but he said this:
Ask him to try some feeler gage and check the clearance. I'll go and look up the product but it's black and white putty that you put on the crank and them torq the journal and remove and measure the squished putty. The width tells you the gap. This isnt' the solution but it may tell him the problem. If the gap is too small oil will not pass and the bearing will burn up. Too much gap and the slapping will deform and blow the bearing out.

Edit: the name of the stuff is Plastigage
http://www.tpub.com/content/constructionrollers/TM-5-3895-383-24/css/TM-5-3895-383-24_433.htm

Matts96HB · 05-01-2008, 03:48 PM

Thanks for the help everyone, yeah I am going to go out there now and try checking the bearings and switching them if needed.

Also going to get some plastigauge and check the clearances.

I know the main caps are in the right place because the arrows are facing the oil pump and are numbered 12345.

Matts96HB · 05-01-2008, 07:04 PM

Ok, so I can get the caps torqued down except #5, and it will spin.

When I torque cap #5 down, the crankshaft will not spin.

I really don't know what to do, I've tried just about everything.

dacheat · 05-02-2008, 12:27 AM

Matts96HB · 05-02-2008, 03:43 PM

Well, I figured it out! I got some plastigage last night and was up until about 4:30 this morning working on it.

I had been swapping the bearings around, then pulled out the plastigage. Turns out, the bearing in the number 5 cap was too large. Completely the wrong part, I don't know how it got in there. Sent the bearings back, new set on the way.

Thanks everyone for the help, hopefully that will fix the problem and I can be on my way.

Matts96HB · 05-02-2008, 06:51 PM

Yes, now its finally time for the pistons and rods to go in. Then rebuild the head and tranny, and I'm good to go.

Thanks alot blanco. I really don't think you get the appreciation you deserve on Hondaswap. Taking your free time to help people out with problems is really respectable. If I knew how to leave rep I would, someone wanna instruct me on how to do that? I'd also like to leave it for dacheat, and brokenrex, etc.

dacheat · 05-02-2008, 06:52 PM

aww you're cute

. click the scales o'justice that hang out between the green dot and the caution sign under blanco's avatar and personal info.

i'm just glad you got it sorted out, it didn't sound like a fun problem to have

.

Matts96HB · 05-02-2008, 07:02 PM

Thanks dacheat. I'm glad I got it fixed too, it really wasn't fun having a crank that didn't spin. Can't really run a car that way

Thanks to all who helped, +rep to everyone.

BrokenRex · 05-02-2008, 08:41 PM

i like you too blanco (i've been coming to this site for awhile, maybe 6 months before i joined.) but we were arguing right after i joined, i told you how much of an asset you are to this forum, and you just referred me to another site. hehe. one that in fact, said the same thing that i said, which was what we were fighting about in the first place. the problem with helping people, is that some think the internet exists for the sole purpose of their own gain. those are the ones that come to get their problem fixed, then are mad if we can't decipher it for them from their one sentence description.

and matt i'm glad you got it all sorted out. the reason i suggested that you might have switched them was because... a friend of mine did that once.... granted i... er, he, did it on a motor where they weren't numbered, but it took a bit of trial and error to get them back where they belong.

(we all have an idiot friend that some people are compelled to blame their mistakes on. in this case, obviously i was making fun of those people.. go to hell! i've never done that.)

Matts96HB · 05-03-2008, 01:19 AM

You're welcome blanco, I just thought I'd let ya know, since most people seem to take your ideas and criticism the wrong way. And hey, if they'd only listen to ya, 95% of the time things will turn out better. I know from experience now, lol. Plastigage FTW.

Anyway, I have one last question.

Tonight when I was assembling the new pistons and rods, I noticed that one side of the pistons has a deeper dish than the other. I read the instructions and looked over the internet, and nothing. So I figured it didnt matter. Anyway, the bottom end is assembled but only finger tight and the rod caps are the only thing holding the pistons and rods in. Does it matter which side the larger dish is on?

BrokenRex · 05-03-2008, 12:05 PM

yes, the "larger dish" is a valve relief. the larger ones belong on the intake side, the smaller on the exhaust. if you have them backwards, pistons can contact valves, which is no fun.

Matts96HB · 05-03-2008, 06:41 PM

Thanks guys! I kinda had a feeling, but I wasn't sure.

Blanco, there are no markings on these pistons. And nothing is said in the installation instructions. You would think JE would put that in the instructions, but I guess not lol.

Anyway, thanks alot guys. +Rep again.

EDIT: Well, +Rep when I can lol.

Matts96HB · 05-03-2008, 06:47 PM

Oh, I almost forgot. This isn't necessarily needed right now, but its just a question.

Since I will be running Crower Cams with Crower valvetrain (stock valves im planning on if I can), and a built bottom end.. Will it be safe to turn more RPM's than the stock rev limiter? I'll only do that if the engine is still making power past the stock rev limiter, of course.

Thanks again guys.

EDIT: Here's a link to the valve springs and retainers I plan on using:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brian...spagenameZWDVW

LS_VTEC · 05-04-2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matts96HB

Oh, I almost forgot. This isn't necessarily needed right now, but its just a question.

Since I will be running Crower Cams with Crower valvetrain (stock valves im planning on if I can), and a built bottom end.. Will it be safe to turn more RPM's than the stock rev limiter? I'll only do that if the engine is still making power past the stock rev limiter, of course.

Thanks again guys.

EDIT: Here's a link to the valve springs and retainers I plan on using:
eBay Motors: Brian Crower Valve Springs & Retainer b18a b18b Integra (item 180237561730 end time May-08-08 06:41:54 PDT)

The head can handle it, but the bottom end unfortunately will only hold up for so long. Ive learned in my many years of ls-vtec's, that built or not, long rod stroke and high rpm do not mix well. Sure you can get away with it, maybe for 3+ months, but it will not last. My advice is to buy a cam for mid-range power, something good to 8200rpm. Stay away from long duration cams.

Also, a previous post you made, you asked about how to torque the main bolts down. Three times is not neccessary for the mains, but the rod bolts, yes. And pay attention to wet spec/dry spec here also, this is important. Also, plastigage your main/rod bearing and make sure they are within oem specs. Also, it isnt going to be "easy" to spin the crankshaft when its all torqued down. It should move, but with some hesitation being your using brand new bearings. Good luck with your build!

Matts96HB · 05-04-2008, 01:13 AM

Well, I have Crower stage 2 turbo cams. Hopefully I can make power a little past the stock range, that'd make me happy.

04-29-2008, 11:34 PM	#1
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Ok, I'm stuck. I'm working on rebuilding my B18B1 bottom end. Stock crankshaft, new stock main bearings and thrust washers. Here's my problem: I installed the new bearings/washers per service manual specs. I used engine assembly lube in the proper places, I thought I had too much at first so I went back and re-lubed several times, then re-torqued. The problem is, when the main bolts are torqued to 56 ft/lbs (specified in the manual) the crankshaft will not spin. I torqued it down to 50 ft/lbs and it will spin but only for 3 revolutions or so before the crankshaft seizes and it becomes very difficult to get it to spin again. I know 6 ft lbs doesn't seem like much, but I've seen what a poorly assembled engine looks like. Keep in mind I have checked the new bearings with a micrometer to see if they were the same thickness/width etc. and everything seems to be perfect. I'm just not sure what is going on. Any help would be appreciated. __________________ Gym: Bulking. 172.6lbs as of 3/17/10. Goal is 180lbs. Car: 319.8whp currently. Goal is 400whp. School: Currently at SCC. Transferring to EWU Winter 2010. Major: Mechanical Engineering.

05-01-2008, 10:55 AM	#10
BrokenRex Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Age: 26 Posts: 379 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 12	did you get the main bearings out of order? each cap is only meant to bolt down to the main it was machined with. did you actually measure the crank journal, or just the bearings themselves? you need to find out what the clearance is in each bearing when torqued. more than likely however, you have one, or more, of your main caps out of place, you're lucky that you found the problem now, rather than later when that bearing scrapes all the oil off the crank and you melt your motor. try to isolate the problem. hand tighten all the bolts, then just lightly snug them down with your wrench. verify that the crank spins freely, then torque down only one main (there's no risk of damaging the crank this way, like you can with a cam, because there's nothing putting any force on your crank, and there will still be some clearance between the bearing/journal.) check to see if it spins freely. if it does, loosen, then move to the next main. repeat until you find the problem(s). once you do, if it's only one main, try turning the cap 180degrees. if it's two, try to swap the caps between them. if however you numbered them correctly, and you have a problem still, do the test mentioned to see if one of the bearings is bowed in, causing the drag. Last edited by BrokenRex; 05-01-2008 at 11:03 AM.

05-03-2008, 01:19 AM	#20
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	You're welcome blanco, I just thought I'd let ya know, since most people seem to take your ideas and criticism the wrong way. And hey, if they'd only listen to ya, 95% of the time things will turn out better. I know from experience now, lol. Plastigage FTW. Anyway, I have one last question. Tonight when I was assembling the new pistons and rods, I noticed that one side of the pistons has a deeper dish than the other. I read the instructions and looked over the internet, and nothing. So I figured it didnt matter. Anyway, the bottom end is assembled but only finger tight and the rod caps are the only thing holding the pistons and rods in. Does it matter which side the larger dish is on? __________________ Gym: Bulking. 172.6lbs as of 3/17/10. Goal is 180lbs. Car: 319.8whp currently. Goal is 400whp. School: Currently at SCC. Transferring to EWU Winter 2010. Major: Mechanical Engineering.

05-03-2008, 06:47 PM	#23
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Oh, I almost forgot. This isn't necessarily needed right now, but its just a question. Since I will be running Crower Cams with Crower valvetrain (stock valves im planning on if I can), and a built bottom end.. Will it be safe to turn more RPM's than the stock rev limiter? I'll only do that if the engine is still making power past the stock rev limiter, of course. Thanks again guys. EDIT: Here's a link to the valve springs and retainers I plan on using: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brian...spagenameZWDVW __________________ Gym: Bulking. 172.6lbs as of 3/17/10. Goal is 180lbs. Car: 319.8whp currently. Goal is 400whp. School: Currently at SCC. Transferring to EWU Winter 2010. Major: Mechanical Engineering.

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04-30-2008, 12:46 PM	#2
dacheat ..is grounded. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: strongbadia Posts: 4,107 iTrader: 5 / 100% Ride: '84 buick (rusted) Rep Power: 412	in for the read.

04-30-2008, 07:24 PM	#3
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Ideas anyone? This is really holding up my build. Ideas welcome.

04-30-2008, 09:03 PM	#4
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Ok, well I think I may have an idea. When I was torquing the bolts for the main caps down, I simply torqued them to 56 ft/lbs. I think I may be torquing them wrong. I was told that I might have to torque them down, then back them out, and torque them down again. Can anyone verify this? Blanco, anyone? I'm at a loss here.

04-30-2008, 10:34 PM	#5
dacheat ..is grounded. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: strongbadia Posts: 4,107 iTrader: 5 / 100% Ride: '84 buick (rusted) Rep Power: 412	i have a friend at work that should know, i'll ask in the morning and if i get anything out of it i'll post it here for you. i'm sorry all the board heavies seem to be overlooking your thread.

04-30-2008, 11:21 PM	#6
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Hey, thanks. That would be awesome. I'll also be stopping by a few machine shops tomorrow to see what they have to say. Hopefully a combination of the ideas you and I get will fix something.

04-30-2008, 11:36 PM	#7
dacheat ..is grounded. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: strongbadia Posts: 4,107 iTrader: 5 / 100% Ride: '84 buick (rusted) Rep Power: 412	werd. i'll check in before lunch tomorrow with whatever i find out.

04-30-2008, 11:49 PM	#8
eg6sir Führer Mod Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: 661 BK CA Age: 29 Posts: 16,284 iTrader: 4 / 100% Ride: Le Car Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 472	its not to busy here at night.. i'm sure Blanco will chime in come morning

04-30-2008, 11:58 PM	#9
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Yeah, I sure hope I can figure this out. I mean I've checked everything. The bearings are correct, and as far as I can tell they are installed correctly. Which leads me to believe that I'm doing something wrong while torquing them down.

05-01-2008, 03:48 PM	#12
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Thanks for the help everyone, yeah I am going to go out there now and try checking the bearings and switching them if needed. Also going to get some plastigauge and check the clearances. I know the main caps are in the right place because the arrows are facing the oil pump and are numbered 12345.

05-01-2008, 07:04 PM	#13
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Ok, so I can get the caps torqued down except #5, and it will spin. When I torque cap #5 down, the crankshaft will not spin. I really don't know what to do, I've tried just about everything.

05-02-2008, 12:27 AM	#14
dacheat ..is grounded. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: strongbadia Posts: 4,107 iTrader: 5 / 100% Ride: '84 buick (rusted) Rep Power: 412

05-02-2008, 03:43 PM	#15
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Well, I figured it out! I got some plastigage last night and was up until about 4:30 this morning working on it. I had been swapping the bearings around, then pulled out the plastigage. Turns out, the bearing in the number 5 cap was too large. Completely the wrong part, I don't know how it got in there. Sent the bearings back, new set on the way. Thanks everyone for the help, hopefully that will fix the problem and I can be on my way.

05-02-2008, 06:51 PM	#16
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Yes, now its finally time for the pistons and rods to go in. Then rebuild the head and tranny, and I'm good to go. Thanks alot blanco. I really don't think you get the appreciation you deserve on Hondaswap. Taking your free time to help people out with problems is really respectable. If I knew how to leave rep I would, someone wanna instruct me on how to do that? I'd also like to leave it for dacheat, and brokenrex, etc.

05-02-2008, 06:52 PM	#17
dacheat ..is grounded. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: strongbadia Posts: 4,107 iTrader: 5 / 100% Ride: '84 buick (rusted) Rep Power: 412	aww you're cute . click the scales o'justice that hang out between the green dot and the caution sign under blanco's avatar and personal info. i'm just glad you got it sorted out, it didn't sound like a fun problem to have .

05-02-2008, 07:02 PM	#18
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Thanks dacheat. I'm glad I got it fixed too, it really wasn't fun having a crank that didn't spin. Can't really run a car that way Thanks to all who helped, +rep to everyone.

05-02-2008, 08:41 PM	#19
BrokenRex Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Age: 26 Posts: 379 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 12	i like you too blanco (i've been coming to this site for awhile, maybe 6 months before i joined.) but we were arguing right after i joined, i told you how much of an asset you are to this forum, and you just referred me to another site. hehe. one that in fact, said the same thing that i said, which was what we were fighting about in the first place. the problem with helping people, is that some think the internet exists for the sole purpose of their own gain. those are the ones that come to get their problem fixed, then are mad if we can't decipher it for them from their one sentence description. and matt i'm glad you got it all sorted out. the reason i suggested that you might have switched them was because... a friend of mine did that once.... granted i... er, he, did it on a motor where they weren't numbered, but it took a bit of trial and error to get them back where they belong. (we all have an idiot friend that some people are compelled to blame their mistakes on. in this case, obviously i was making fun of those people.. go to hell! i've never done that.)

05-03-2008, 12:05 PM	#21
BrokenRex Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Age: 26 Posts: 379 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 12	yes, the "larger dish" is a valve relief. the larger ones belong on the intake side, the smaller on the exhaust. if you have them backwards, pistons can contact valves, which is no fun.

05-03-2008, 06:41 PM	#22
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Thanks guys! I kinda had a feeling, but I wasn't sure. Blanco, there are no markings on these pistons. And nothing is said in the installation instructions. You would think JE would put that in the instructions, but I guess not lol. Anyway, thanks alot guys. +Rep again. EDIT: Well, +Rep when I can lol.

05-04-2008, 01:13 AM	#25
Matts96HB FI FTW. Join Date: Apr 2006 Age: 20 Posts: 3,310 iTrader: 1 / 100% Rep Power: 136	Well, I have Crower stage 2 turbo cams. Hopefully I can make power a little past the stock range, that'd make me happy.

Hondaswap.com | Honda Technical & JDM styling Forums

Ok, I'm stuck.