Silverchild79

So I was speaking to a friend of mine, who's a mechanic and one time amateur stock car racer. He's the type of person who's forgotton more about Cars then we could every possibly know.

Anyways we were talking about forced induction, and he's completely behind SC over turbo. His arguement was that the fundemental difference between the two was in how they generated power, everything else being the same (size, etc), the SC would out perform the turbo. He went on to talk about how SC air is cooler as it is not chambered right next to exhaust gasses, the availability of air to air intercoolers for SC'ers, and basicaly stated that Turbocharging is more popular thing, then a better thing.

Anyone have a logical rebuttle?

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pissedoffsol

yeah, he's wrong.

hes stuck in the 60s on 350's.

nearly all the fastest cars- import or domestic (running on GAS) are runnign turbos. even mustangs... camaros, buick 3.8's, and our hondas.

sc's make too much heat, and simply aren't nearly as efficient as a turbo is.

K2e2vin

even the torque monsters, pull tractors, run turbo.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

Slammed89Integra

I'm really interested in this discussion. Explain to me why a Aftercooled vortec can put down 270 on a b16a, and not many bolt on turbos can get anywhere near that.

ANd yeah, I want to hear logic, not this, its popular, everyone does it bs.

Because if you actually look down the line, a 671 blown 350 is going to smoke, a t-61 turboed 350, or am I wrong?

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When this is all over I think we should get an apartment together.

K2e2vin

after cooled supercharger--boosts torque all through powerband.

turbo kit--air-air intercooler(not air/liquid like vortech's), boosts mid.

btw for the price of the vortech kit you can get a 400hp turbo kit from xs-engineering for b16a.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

Slammed89Integra

There is no logic in what you said. I'm talking dynamics, not what you can buy.

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When this is all over I think we should get an apartment together.

Silverchild79

exaclty, I want to hear something that will explain this beyond personal testimony and popular opinion. Turbo's are cheaper, fine. But that's not the point here.

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K2e2vin

i am responding to the comment about the vortech putting down more than most turbo kits.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

mwvnos

....endless tuning and power capabilities with a turbo, you can boost to the point to blow any motor you can build. superchargers have a limit really if you think about it. biggest pulley iv seen is 18 psi for a SC and last time i checked, turbos will bolw that outta the water. BIG power is made from turbos. goes back to the saying "blowers blow and turbos rule" granted that SCs have better responce but ill still "walk the dog" on you when im pushing 25psi on a t66....turbos are my vote and thats the right vote....IMO

__________________
92 Civic hatch:
95 jdm h22 swap
1000lb rear springs
6 puck clutch disc with 2600lb pressure plate
gutted.....

working on as you read this, turbo set up..


...need i say more...?

K2e2vin

the only difference is power supply. with a turbo you will usually have lag, but with the supercharger this is non-existant. but with the supercharger and increased boost, you sacrifice response(b/c added drag of the supercharger). most autoX aim for engine response(and why the Mine's GT-R is so fast in autoX).

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

K2e2vin

this is myth. you can increase crank pulley diameter and decrease sc pulley and have more boost. turbos are limited b/c they still need exhaust gas. the highest boost ive seen from a turbo is about 50psi, after that it will probally surge, you can go higher with a sc through gearing. sc's dont have as great as response as turbos.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

Silverchild79

So the power power you push out of a SC the worse throlle response is, is that right?

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K2e2vin

yes in most cases, if not all.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

Slammed89Integra

WHOA!

EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.

ARe you talking centrifugal or roots type? Centrifugal is pretty much a turbo compressor side attached to a spindal, just lik the exhaust housing on a turbo. I'm not sure about a roots type though. I thought a roots type was more along the lines, as a steady power curve in increase, and not as much as spooling figure.

And yeah to an above comment, psi isn't everything, cfm is where its at.

__________________
When this is all over I think we should get an apartment together.

K2e2vin

WHOA!

EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.

ARe you talking centrifugal or roots type? Centrifugal is pretty much a turbo compressor side attached to a spindal, just lik the exhaust housing on a turbo. I'm not sure about a roots type though. I thought a roots type was more along the lines, as a steady power curve in increase, and not as much as spooling figure.

And yeah to an above comment, psi isn't everything, cfm is where its at. [/b][/quote]
its more noticeable in roots-sc cars. heres why, you gun it, let off the throttle, but the sc is still trying to compress air, and then you gas it again but since the supercharger is "pre-loaded" it has to work a little bit harder. turbo--gun it, let off the gas, swoosh gas is redirected through wastegate and boost is let off by bov; engine sees no load, get back on the gas and since the turbo is already spinning but with no load, its sort of a clutch drop, but on the turbo. oh yeah the centrifugal sc has pretty good response if it has a bov(like the vortech kits).

cfm is for engine size(turbo selection), psi is for boost.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

mwvnos

this is myth. you can increase crank pulley diameter and decrease sc pulley and have more boost. turbos are limited b/c they still need exhaust gas. the highest boost ive seen from a turbo is about 50psi, after that it will probally surge, you can go higher with a sc through gearing. sc's dont have as great as response as turbos. [/b][/quote]
oh bullshit....you may can get those "gears" but iv never seen them. lol id liek to see 50 psi out of a JRSC lol....what are all the IDRC racers running?...turbo, how bout the teg funny car that was topic a few days ago, it had 2 turbos on it. im going to go with them on the turbo cuz i think they know a bit more then we do. turbos have lag, but racing is high rpms where there is no lag. SCs dont have lag really. all i know is i can build one hell of a turbo honda motor that will blast any supercharged honda motor out there....seriously, i just dont have the money lol....

__________________
92 Civic hatch:
95 jdm h22 swap
1000lb rear springs
6 puck clutch disc with 2600lb pressure plate
gutted.....

working on as you read this, turbo set up..


...need i say more...?

K2e2vin

most races(drag) win from the launch. hmmm... the teg funny car has no real class, it was built just as a "show" purpose. look up gearing and simple machines; pulley.

btw did you read what i said about engine response?

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

mwvnos

yea launch...get fucking huge slicks and launch at high ass rpm so you load the turbo and have full boost off the line...it doesnt matter if it has a class....it beats all so i guess that makes it superior....

__________________
92 Civic hatch:
95 jdm h22 swap
1000lb rear springs
6 puck clutch disc with 2600lb pressure plate
gutted.....

working on as you read this, turbo set up..


...need i say more...?

K2e2vin

with that much torque coming out of a turboed +4l motor? try it.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

mwvnos

man your talkin about 50 psi outta a SC....launching with tough axles, diff, and hubs is no prob....what you think they do'?....launch like your daily driving at a redlight?....if they make shit to boost a SC like that then they make what you need to get it to the ground....i still stand turbos rule the track...

__________________
92 Civic hatch:
95 jdm h22 swap
1000lb rear springs
6 puck clutch disc with 2600lb pressure plate
gutted.....

working on as you read this, turbo set up..


...need i say more...?

K2e2vin

you can think what you want. you said launch at a high rpm with full boost off the line, do you know what that means? no traction.

__________________
1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list
1992 Honda Accord LX
1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale.

Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.

RIP
Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006
Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

pissedoffsol

and that is the main draw back to the supercharger system.

the pulley will only spin so fast no matter what. its limited by its power source - the motor.

the turbo, spins 60,000-120,000 rpms. it has no upper limitation. that's stupid fast.

it's way more efficient.

get loco honkey in here... he'll own this thread better than i can. but its physics, that the turbo > supercharger

pissedoffsol

you can think what you want. you said launch at a high rpm with full boost off the line, do you know what that means? no traction. [/b][/quote]
WHO CARES. that is not the point of this thread.

this thread assumes a car/chassis/driveline that could take XXXX power.

89Formula383

turbocharger > supercharger

yes, superchargers CAN run 50psi. top fuel drag racers run around that area.

superchargers build boost right off idle, being run off the engine. You get instant throttle response. A roots blower has rotors that spin to draw more air into the engine, while centrifigal is closer in design to a turbocharger. A third kind of blower is a whipple, but I don't know jack about those, hehe.

You will find harsher/more regulations for cars with turbochargers than any other power adder. Their benefits/strengths have already been stated several times so I won't bother with them. Except that turbo cars can be docile enough when not into boost that your mom can drive it to the store and not know she's in a 9 second street car

For most of us, however, it doesn't matter much. Either one can make plenty of power for the street, but personally i'd go with a good turbo system. Turbos can fit in space a SC cannot. Both can make great amounts of power, but for the most part, turbochargers are superior. My Firebird is going to have two hairdryers, my import will have a hairdryer, and anything else I run boost on will have a turbo.

pissedoffsol