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Ractive78 · 03-15-2003, 08:38 PM

HOw much psi do you think a stock gsr motor could take safely, and still be a daily driver?

pissedoffsol · 03-16-2003, 12:59 AM

-12 to 23213123123 psi

it all depends on the turbo size, the tune, who tuned it, and so on and so forth.....

my typical example.

10 psi on a 14g = 100 whp gain
10 psi on a t88 = 500 whp gain

BUT IN ONLY RUNNING 10 PSI, why did i blow up? cuz your turbo pushes more air than a jet engine's exhaust!!!!

Ractive78 · 03-16-2003, 10:31 AM

I didnt know you could run ngative boost. Does running negative boost take away power?

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 01:27 AM

negative boost is also known as vacuum, or whatever everyone else calls it- lag

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 01:32 AM

5 or 6 psi would be alright without any serious tuning. Just make sure you retard your timing a little, and get a good fuel management system.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 01:34 AM

The most ANY size of turbo will increase the horsepower of an engine at 10 psi is about 70 percent, and for a GSR thats about a 120 hp gain

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 02:05 AM

oh really?

we'll see about that.

i'm looking for about a 200-220% gain at 10psi.

dyno coming soon

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 02:32 AM

ask calesta to explain the math if you dont believe me.

10psi is where your BOV goes off keeping anymore air from going into the engine. 10 psi is about 70 percent more pressure than the ambient air pressure of 14.7 psi at sea level. It is the difference in air pressure that forces more air into the engine which creates more torque.

If you have 70 percent more going into the engine, you will make approximately 70 percent more torque. If you have a 14g and a t88 on a gsr running 3 psi you will be making the exact same horsepower (as long as the 14g is able to push the full 3 psi at the gsr's redline). Infact the GSR with the 14g would actually be faster because it causes less drag on the exhaust system, and is in boost for a larger portion of the rev range.

But if you were to put both of those turbos at 21 psi, the 14g would not have a chance in hell of pushing that, and the t88 would still be blowing air out of the BOV. So in that case the GSR with the t88 would be pushing 250 percent more torque, and the 14g be screwed.

kyleirwin · 03-17-2003, 02:38 AM

hahahahaha, that's the most retarded thing i've ever herd. i'm sure you misinterpeted that from calesta, cuz i'm pretty sure he wouldn't say something that dumb. and the wastegate is what opens up at a set psi, not the bov. the bov is what opens the the throttle body closes to release the pressure in the charge pipes.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 02:39 AM

alrighty ignore that link to calesta. I still want to see that dyno at 10 psi , and the dyno of it running without the turbo. If it is a 200 percent increase I'll apologize.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 02:51 AM

Here are dynos from 2 different 10 psi gsr's

GSR 1

GSR 2

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 02:52 AM

BAHHHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

I DOUBT Calesta told you that, if he did,

here's the deal.

Quote:

10psi is where your BOV goes off keeping anymore air from going into the engine. 10 psi is about 70 percent more pressure than the ambient air pressure of 14.7 psi at sea level. It is the difference in air pressure that forces more air into the engine which creates more torque.

a BOV only opens when you set it to open. on top of that, it doesn't operate off the wastegate or the vacuum system's boost/vacuum lines. it detects pressure in the charge pipe. IE, when your throttle body closes, there is immediately tons of air/pressure waiting to go in, since it has no where to go, it back logs to the turbo. doing that causes damage to the turbo, as it tries to spin in backwards. The bov is designed to release this extra pressure- which is MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than your actual boost setting.

10-11 psi is all you can run on your stock map sensor. That's only because its a 2 bar sensor. ambient air pressure is about 1 bar. so, come 10-11 psi, you are reaching the limits of the stock map sensor. the map sends a voltage to the ecu based on this pressure.

Quote:

If you have 70 percent more going into the engine, you will make approximately 70 percent more torque. If you have a 14g and a t88 on a gsr running 3 psi you will be making the exact same horsepower (as long as the 14g is able to push the full 3 psi at the gsr's redline). Infact the GSR with the 14g would actually be faster because it causes less drag on the exhaust system, and is in boost for a larger portion of the rev range.

not true. psi means jack and shit. and Jack left town. its all about CFM's.
10 psi on a 14g flows, say, 200 cfm's.
10psi on a t88 flows, say 500 cfm's.
its more than twice the air flow. air + combustion = power.

Quote:

But if you were to put both of those turbos at 21 psi, the 14g would not have a chance in hell of pushing that, and the t88 would still be blowing air out of the BOV. So in that case the GSR with the t88 would be pushing 250 percent more torque, and the 14g be screwed.

at 21 psi, the 14g would only be pushing in heat. correct. its simply out of its range. however, the air blowing out of the BOV is, again, bullshit.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kylemarhx@Mar 17 2003, 12:43 AM
hahahahaha, that's the most retarded thing i've ever herd. i'm sure you misinterpeted that from calesta, cuz i'm pretty sure he wouldn't say something that dumb. and the wastegate is what opens up at a set psi, not the bov. the bov is what opens the the throttle body closes to release the pressure in the charge pipes.

I was under the impression that both the BOV and the waste gate opened at a given psi

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 02:55 AM

Im not ripping on anyone, or even claiming to know everything. I am just saying that if the MAP sensor is reading 10 psi at full throttle from a 14g the horsepower gain will be exactly the same as if the MAP sensor is reading 10 psi from a t88

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 02:56 AM
Here are dynos from 2 different 10 psi gsr's

GSR 1

GSR 2

while THAT particular setup may only be a 70% gain, those numbers are VERY VERY weak. thats a typical drag turbo setup. AKA lame dick. t3/t4 on a pretty much unbuilt motor (at least it doesn't say) with low compression. compression has a LOT to do with power, esp. torque.

I will be running a t3/t61 on my 2L gsr/b16 head motor.

goal: 400 whp at 10 psi

once its in and tuned, i will post the dynos

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pissedoffsol+Mar 17 2003, 01:01 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pissedoffsol @ Mar 17 2003, 01:01 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 02:56 AM
Here are dynos from 2 different 10 psi gsr's

GSR 1

GSR 2

while THAT particular setup may only be a 70% gain, those numbers are VERY VERY weak. thats a typical drag turbo setup. AKA lame dick. t3/t4 on a pretty much unbuilt motor (at least it doesn't say) with low compression. compression has a LOT to do with power, esp. torque.

I will be running a t3/t61 on my 2L gsr/b16 head motor.

goal: 400 whp at 10 psi

once its in and tuned, i will post the dynos [/b][/quote]
It appears I had a misunderstanding of the bov/waste gate. However, like I said, an engine with a t88 reading 10 psi at the MAP sensor full throttle at a given rpm will make the exact same HP as the same engine running a 14g at full throttle reading 10 psi at the MAP sensor.

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 03:09 AM
However, like I said, an engine with a t88 reading 10 psi at the MAP sensor full throttle at a given rpm will make the exact same HP as the same engine running a 14g at full throttle reading 10 psi at the MAP sensor.

umm, no.

psi does NOT equal air flow

http://www.hondaswap.com/turbo/viewer.php?id=8

read that

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 03:24 AM

Okay I read it. Thats one more variable I've got to consider. However 10psi of air at a given temperature at the map sensor on a given engine at given RPM at full throttle from a 14g and a t88 will make the same amount of horsepower.

Just a note though, mecury is not the heaviest element. Uranium 235 is almost twice as dense as mercury. The engine may be partially heated by compression(but its also cooled almost as much when the air is released), but its mostly heated by the fact that its burning gasoline

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 03:29 AM
However 10psi of air at a given temperature at the map sensor on a given engine at given RPM at full throttle from a 14g and a t88 will make the same amount of horsepower.

this is the last time im going to say this.

no.

who ever told you that, or hwo ever you are derriving it is just utterly wrong.

PSI has ZERO relation to the amount of air going into a motor. that is cfm's. cubic feet per min of air.

at 10 psi, a 14g flows 200 cfms
at 10 psi a t88 flows 500 cfms

500 cfms, mated with proper fuel STILL at 10psi will make MUCH more power.
there is no arguing it dude.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 03:49 AM

yeah you are right, there is no point in arguing about this. however, full throttle and 10 psi means that the engine cannot take in anymore cf/m

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 01:54 AM
yeah you are right, there is no point in arguing about this. however, full throttle and 10 psi means that the engine cannot take in anymore cf/m

That is meant to be taken in with everything i mentioned above, assuming that there is something letting the air out of the manifold once it reaches 10 psi.

pissedoffsol · 03-17-2003, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 03:54 AM
full throttle and 10 psi means that the engine cannot take in anymore cf/m

correct, BUT there is still a hell of a lot more air going in in the first place.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 04:06 AM

Yeah the larger turbo has the ability to pump more air into the engine, provided you need it. But if two turbos are able to pump the same amount of air into engine (at a given temperature, RPM and throttle position) they will be increasing the horsepower by the same amount. However, when you either increase the psi (cap) or increase the engines ability to use more cf/m (either by increasing displacement or RPM), the smaller turbo will be unable to keep the same MAP as the larger one. But, if you put a cap both turbos below their maximum load, the smaller turbo will be faster due to the reasons I explained above.

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 04:23 AM

So....what turbo will be faster actually depends on the size of the turbo vs displacement/rpms of the engine rather than the actual size of the turbo (provided there is some kind of cap on the intake manifold pressure).

SnailOnARampage · 03-17-2003, 04:26 AM

bigger is only better if you can use the excess that the larger turbo creates

03-17-2003, 01:32 AM	#5
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	5 or 6 psi would be alright without any serious tuning. Just make sure you retard your timing a little, and get a good fuel management system. __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 01:34 AM	#6
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	The most ANY size of turbo will increase the horsepower of an engine at 10 psi is about 70 percent, and for a GSR thats about a 120 hp gain __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 02:32 AM	#8
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	ask calesta to explain the math if you dont believe me. 10psi is where your BOV goes off keeping anymore air from going into the engine. 10 psi is about 70 percent more pressure than the ambient air pressure of 14.7 psi at sea level. It is the difference in air pressure that forces more air into the engine which creates more torque. If you have 70 percent more going into the engine, you will make approximately 70 percent more torque. If you have a 14g and a t88 on a gsr running 3 psi you will be making the exact same horsepower (as long as the 14g is able to push the full 3 psi at the gsr's redline). Infact the GSR with the 14g would actually be faster because it causes less drag on the exhaust system, and is in boost for a larger portion of the rev range. But if you were to put both of those turbos at 21 psi, the 14g would not have a chance in hell of pushing that, and the t88 would still be blowing air out of the BOV. So in that case the GSR with the t88 would be pushing 250 percent more torque, and the 14g be screwed. __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 02:38 AM	#9
kyleirwin Retired OG Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vegas Age: 22 Posts: 2,422 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Integra, Tahoe Rep Power: 43	hahahahaha, that's the most retarded thing i've ever herd. i'm sure you misinterpeted that from calesta, cuz i'm pretty sure he wouldn't say something that dumb. and the wastegate is what opens up at a set psi, not the bov. the bov is what opens the the throttle body closes to release the pressure in the charge pipes. __________________ Kyle I. Collins, PmD.

03-17-2003, 02:39 AM	#10
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	alrighty ignore that link to calesta. I still want to see that dyno at 10 psi , and the dyno of it running without the turbo. If it is a 200 percent increase I'll apologize. __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.


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03-15-2003, 08:38 PM	#1
Ractive78 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 238 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	HOw much psi do you think a stock gsr motor could take safely, and still be a daily driver?

03-16-2003, 12:59 AM	#2
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	-12 to 23213123123 psi it all depends on the turbo size, the tune, who tuned it, and so on and so forth..... my typical example. 10 psi on a 14g = 100 whp gain 10 psi on a t88 = 500 whp gain BUT IN ONLY RUNNING 10 PSI, why did i blow up? cuz your turbo pushes more air than a jet engine's exhaust!!!!

03-16-2003, 10:31 AM	#3
Ractive78 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 238 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	I didnt know you could run ngative boost. Does running negative boost take away power?

03-17-2003, 01:27 AM	#4
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	negative boost is also known as vacuum, or whatever everyone else calls it- lag

03-17-2003, 02:05 AM	#7
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	oh really? we'll see about that. i'm looking for about a 200-220% gain at 10psi. dyno coming soon

03-17-2003, 02:51 AM	#11
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	Here are dynos from 2 different 10 psi gsr's GSR 1 GSR 2 __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 02:55 AM	#14
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	Im not ripping on anyone, or even claiming to know everything. I am just saying that if the MAP sensor is reading 10 psi at full throttle from a 14g the horsepower gain will be exactly the same as if the MAP sensor is reading 10 psi from a t88 __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 03:24 AM	#18
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	Okay I read it. Thats one more variable I've got to consider. However 10psi of air at a given temperature at the map sensor on a given engine at given RPM at full throttle from a 14g and a t88 will make the same amount of horsepower. Just a note though, mecury is not the heaviest element. Uranium 235 is almost twice as dense as mercury. The engine may be partially heated by compression(but its also cooled almost as much when the air is released), but its mostly heated by the fact that its burning gasoline __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 03:49 AM	#20
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	yeah you are right, there is no point in arguing about this. however, full throttle and 10 psi means that the engine cannot take in anymore cf/m __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 04:06 AM	#23
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	Yeah the larger turbo has the ability to pump more air into the engine, provided you need it. But if two turbos are able to pump the same amount of air into engine (at a given temperature, RPM and throttle position) they will be increasing the horsepower by the same amount. However, when you either increase the psi (cap) or increase the engines ability to use more cf/m (either by increasing displacement or RPM), the smaller turbo will be unable to keep the same MAP as the larger one. But, if you put a cap both turbos below their maximum load, the smaller turbo will be faster due to the reasons I explained above. __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 04:23 AM	#24
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	So....what turbo will be faster actually depends on the size of the turbo vs displacement/rpms of the engine rather than the actual size of the turbo (provided there is some kind of cap on the intake manifold pressure). __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

03-17-2003, 04:26 AM	#25
SnailOnARampage Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 278 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	bigger is only better if you can use the excess that the larger turbo creates __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

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