Hondaswap.com | Honda Technical & JDM styling Forums

XZILER8 · 04-29-2003, 11:23 PM

okay, this is probably gonna sound like a pretty naive question and I'm sure I'll catch some flack for it, but I'm gonna ask anyways. I'm not a wanna be, I'm just full of questions and ideas.

Here goes:

Everybody knows cold air is more dense than hot air and thats the whole reason we put intercoolers on our turboed cars. But I had an idea and was wondering if it made any sense or had any sort of practicality to it. Hypothetically speaking, couldn't you somehow hook your A/C refrigerant line into you intercooler thus cooling the air down even more before it enters the combustion chamber?

Thoughts/comments?..................

Slammed89Integra · 04-29-2003, 11:27 PM

That is a good question actually, and a good idea! I have never thought of it but wouldn't that over work you're motor and take away from the power so it would almost become pointless? I dunno, let another reg figure it out.

liquid00meth · 04-29-2003, 11:47 PM

no, because the ambient air in your intercooler is still much warmer than the AC air. An AC cools air with a chemical that can absorb tremendous amounds of heat, and some other methods. The intercooler would only heat up the air.

asmallsol · 04-29-2003, 11:50 PM

ford tryed this back when they used to use freon (sp?). This caused a huge danger if there were ever leaks, however it worked. Now since we use non toxic coolant, it is a much better idea. On the upcoming SVT lighting (2006?) they are going to use this and ford says that they will be able to pump out 500hp on the 5.x liter supercharged Ram cooled (think that is what they are calling it) engine. They say that it increase power by 15-20 percent (i am not sure if those numbers are exact). On the ford version, they have hood scoop then they have an air cooler which runs ac lines through the scoop causing the air to be cooler.

Slammed89Integra · 04-29-2003, 11:53 PM

When did they stop using freon? I did many a/c services last summer on new and used cars and we mostly used freon or this other stuff in a can called like r3-45 or something weird.

NtenseB18 · 04-29-2003, 11:55 PM

yeah, the new SVT lightning will use it and its called supercooler. It takes only a couple of minutes to recharge and can be used for about 30 seconds at a time... Supposed to give an extra 50 ponies.

asmallsol · 04-29-2003, 11:57 PM

in 94 or 95 they switched to the new refrigorant. I know that the first sol for sure used freon.

XZILER8 · 04-29-2003, 11:58 PM

freon was banned like 8 years ago or something like that....it's all r34 refrigerant nowadays (i think)

Older cars may still have freon in them, but any car manufactured after about 1996 or so had to have the new system.

Calesta · 04-29-2003, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquid00meth@Apr 29 2003, 10:52 PM
no, because the ambient air in your intercooler is still much warmer than the AC air. An AC cools air with a chemical that can absorb tremendous amounds of heat, and some other methods. The intercooler would only heat up the air.

I think he's talking about cooling the air charge going through the intercooler by chilling it with the AC system.

-----

Ford actually has a system similar to this to feed its current Lightning concept. It's activated by the driver, takes a minute or so to charge, then blasts cold air into the intake system to give a short 50hp boost.

http://www.fordtruckworld.com/news/svtligh...ningconcept.asp

Read the second section, about the SuperCooler. I think it's pretty cool.

Calesta · 04-30-2003, 12:00 AM

Dammit... I take time looking for a good link, and you guys beat me to the explanation. Oh well. Read up.

Calesta · 04-30-2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by XZILER8@Apr 29 2003, 11:03 PM
freon was banned like 8 years ago or something like that....it's all r34 refrigerant nowadays (i think)

R134a is the name of it. Also known as HFC-134a or Tetrafluoroethane.

XZILER8 · 04-30-2003, 12:08 AM

Your right Calesta,

That is what I mean.

As far as Fords system goes, That basically what I'm thinking of but why couldn't you have it setup to always be on?

If the power benifits would be worth it, I'd rather reroute my A/C lines out of the cabin and into the intercooler so that when I turned on my A/C, it would be cooling the air in the intercooler instead of inside my car.

When I picture this concept in my head, I picture a refrigerator. Take the same principals that are involved with pushing cold air into the refrigerator and do that with the intercooler.

XZILER8 · 04-30-2003, 12:10 AM

oh, and by the way.... when did Ford start havin good ideas?

asmallsol · 04-30-2003, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by XZILER8@Apr 30 2003, 12:15 AM
oh, and by the way.... when did Ford start havin good ideas?

Thats a one time thing, why do you think there stock is at 10.xx and has a record for the year of 6.58 - 18.23 points when toyota's year range is 41.17 - 57.45. (ah honda's is kinda low at 15.xx

Calesta · 04-30-2003, 12:25 AM

XZILER8-

Think of it this way... you have to put power in to get power out. Your air conditioning is a parasitic system. It takes power to drive it. You're not going to be able to put a little bit of power in, then get more power out than you put in. Your AC system drags on your engine by running the compressor, and by requiring electricity (more load on alternator) to power the condensor fan. You know how you can feel the engine bog a little when the AC kicks in? You'd have that happening all the time. Your power gain would be offset by the parasitic losses of your AC system, and you would just end up using more fuel in the end to run the same speed.

Turbochargers work because they harness previously wasted energy- the exhaust exiting the engine, and the air flowing through the grille of the car. The airflow used to cool the intercooler air charge is free, and the power from the exhaust to run the turbo compressor is free too. Your AC system is a direct load on the engine. If you use it to cool the intake charge, you lose.

Ford started having good ideas quite a while ago. If you look at some of the most innovative things in cars now, Ford pioneered quite a few of them.

Mass production on an assembly line
Movable pedals
One hell of a just-in-time operation at their plants

Ford's pretty solid- they just need to work on their quality a bit more.

Calesta · 04-30-2003, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by asmallsol+Apr 29 2003, 11:20 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(asmallsol @ Apr 29 2003, 11:20 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-XZILER8@Apr 30 2003, 12:15 AM
oh, and by the way.... when did Ford start havin good ideas?

Thats a one time thing, why do you think there stock is at 10.xx and has a record for the year of 6.58 - 18.23 points when toyota's year range is 41.17 - 57.45. (ah honda's is kinda low at 15.xx [/b][/quote]
Stock price means nothing without knowing the volume of shares traded, and the time of the last stock split in comparison to its competitors...

XZILER8 · 04-30-2003, 12:42 AM

Thanks for the info Calesta,

the slam on ford was pretty much a joke....i know Henry was a pioneer and responsible for a lot of what we have today, but I just despise of fords in general (i've had three and they're all in the junk yard)

anyways, back to the subject at hand:

so since the A/C system is parasitic, do you think that the gains made from this kind of sytem would be equal to the loss from runnin the A/C. While there is a power loss with the A/C on, isn't it only about a 1 or 2 hp loss? or is it more?

Could the initial loss of power from running the A/C be counteracted with a higher output alternator?

any ideas on what kind of increase could be expected from cooling the air more so that what the intercooler is capable of doing?

liquid00meth · 04-30-2003, 01:54 PM

A/c drops alot more than 1 or 2 HP from the engine. It is pretty significant actually. No, the loss could not be counteracted witha bigger alternator. It doesn't change the fact that the engine has to RUN to A/c compressor, taking energy from the drivetrain. The reason the lightning system "charges" is so that the loading can take place before the actual power is needed (ie in the staging lane) so you can use it freely (without running the compressor) during "race" time.

Better to understand it this way, the only way your going to gain any power from the motor is to capitalize on wasted energy, or to improve efficiency in a number of ways.

Calesta · 04-30-2003, 04:42 PM

You're welcome, and no problem on the stab at Ford.

Liquid has it right... you can't just add more stuff on there (alternator is parasitic, just like your AC compressor) to couteract the loss in power. Anything that's driven off the engine will eat power. You can't take say... 5 hp from the engine to make another 10 hp. That's just like getting free power- it's not possible. Now if you use the "free" energy (or the wasted stuff) to be productive, then you're increasing the effiency of your system.

bandit1050 · 09-09-2006, 06:45 PM

you guys do know that they now have the CRYo2 systems to cool your intercooler down ...so it would be pretty pointless to do that ..wouldnt you think?

hb91 · 09-10-2006, 01:53 AM

honda a/c compressors ( on the 4 cyl's ) rarely take more than five horsepower. theoretically routing the a/c to cool the intercooler is a good idea. however when you take into consideration that the condenser for the a/c is on the high temperature side of the system it would be creating just as much heat as the evaparator ( low temperature side what is inside the cabin and would be what needs to be placed in front of the intercooler to acomplish said task ) is trying to eliminate thus making no effective cool air gains.

as far as refrigerant names go: r-12 is a chlorofluorocarbon, old now illegal as part of the clean air act of 1991 stating that by 95 all cars must be changed to r-134a a hydrofluorocarbon and said to be less harmful to the environment.

freon is dupont's name for r-12
suva is dupont's name for r-134a
however most people call all refrigerants freon.

04-29-2003, 11:23 PM	#1
XZILER8 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ne Posts: 263 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	okay, this is probably gonna sound like a pretty naive question and I'm sure I'll catch some flack for it, but I'm gonna ask anyways. I'm not a wanna be, I'm just full of questions and ideas. Here goes: Everybody knows cold air is more dense than hot air and thats the whole reason we put intercoolers on our turboed cars. But I had an idea and was wondering if it made any sense or had any sort of practicality to it. Hypothetically speaking, couldn't you somehow hook your A/C refrigerant line into you intercooler thus cooling the air down even more before it enters the combustion chamber? Thoughts/comments?.................. __________________ Now accepting applications for "Female Friend with Benefits "

04-29-2003, 11:27 PM	#2
Slammed89Integra Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Washington Age: 22 Posts: 7,741 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2007 Scion TC, 2005 Suzuki GSX-R 600 Rep Power: 155	That is a good question actually, and a good idea! I have never thought of it but wouldn't that over work you're motor and take away from the power so it would almost become pointless? I dunno, let another reg figure it out. __________________ When this is all over I think we should get an apartment together.

04-29-2003, 11:47 PM	#3
liquid00meth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Laconia, NH Posts: 3,201 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 47	no, because the ambient air in your intercooler is still much warmer than the AC air. An AC cools air with a chemical that can absorb tremendous amounds of heat, and some other methods. The intercooler would only heat up the air. __________________ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -The thought provoking George W. Bush

04-29-2003, 11:50 PM	#4
asmallsol Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Houghton/Livonia Michigan Age: 23 Posts: 8,101 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 93 del Sol Gas sipper Rep Power: 101	ford tryed this back when they used to use freon (sp?). This caused a huge danger if there were ever leaks, however it worked. Now since we use non toxic coolant, it is a much better idea. On the upcoming SVT lighting (2006?) they are going to use this and ford says that they will be able to pump out 500hp on the 5.x liter supercharged Ram cooled (think that is what they are calling it) engine. They say that it increase power by 15-20 percent (i am not sure if those numbers are exact). On the ford version, they have hood scoop then they have an air cooler which runs ac lines through the scoop causing the air to be cooler. __________________ Collin Material Science and Engineering Michigan Technological University

04-29-2003, 11:53 PM	#5
Slammed89Integra Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Washington Age: 22 Posts: 7,741 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2007 Scion TC, 2005 Suzuki GSX-R 600 Rep Power: 155	When did they stop using freon? I did many a/c services last summer on new and used cars and we mostly used freon or this other stuff in a can called like r3-45 or something weird. __________________ When this is all over I think we should get an apartment together.


Welcome, Guest! Please Register or Login: User Name Password Members have access to more features, better search, and see fewer ads! It's free, what are you waiting for?

04-29-2003, 11:55 PM	#6
NtenseB18 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 22 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 14	yeah, the new SVT lightning will use it and its called supercooler. It takes only a couple of minutes to recharge and can be used for about 30 seconds at a time... Supposed to give an extra 50 ponies.

04-29-2003, 11:57 PM	#7
asmallsol Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Houghton/Livonia Michigan Age: 23 Posts: 8,101 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 93 del Sol Gas sipper Rep Power: 101	in 94 or 95 they switched to the new refrigorant. I know that the first sol for sure used freon. __________________ Collin Material Science and Engineering Michigan Technological University

04-29-2003, 11:58 PM	#8
XZILER8 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ne Posts: 263 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	freon was banned like 8 years ago or something like that....it's all r34 refrigerant nowadays (i think) Older cars may still have freon in them, but any car manufactured after about 1996 or so had to have the new system. __________________ Now accepting applications for "Female Friend with Benefits "

04-30-2003, 12:00 AM	#10
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	Dammit... I take time looking for a good link, and you guys beat me to the explanation. Oh well. Read up. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

04-30-2003, 12:08 AM	#12
XZILER8 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ne Posts: 263 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	Your right Calesta, That is what I mean. As far as Fords system goes, That basically what I'm thinking of but why couldn't you have it setup to always be on? If the power benifits would be worth it, I'd rather reroute my A/C lines out of the cabin and into the intercooler so that when I turned on my A/C, it would be cooling the air in the intercooler instead of inside my car. When I picture this concept in my head, I picture a refrigerator. Take the same principals that are involved with pushing cold air into the refrigerator and do that with the intercooler. __________________ Now accepting applications for "Female Friend with Benefits "

04-30-2003, 12:10 AM	#13
XZILER8 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ne Posts: 263 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	oh, and by the way.... when did Ford start havin good ideas? __________________ Now accepting applications for "Female Friend with Benefits "

04-30-2003, 12:25 AM	#15
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	XZILER8- Think of it this way... you have to put power in to get power out. Your air conditioning is a parasitic system. It takes power to drive it. You're not going to be able to put a little bit of power in, then get more power out than you put in. Your AC system drags on your engine by running the compressor, and by requiring electricity (more load on alternator) to power the condensor fan. You know how you can feel the engine bog a little when the AC kicks in? You'd have that happening all the time. Your power gain would be offset by the parasitic losses of your AC system, and you would just end up using more fuel in the end to run the same speed. Turbochargers work because they harness previously wasted energy- the exhaust exiting the engine, and the air flowing through the grille of the car. The airflow used to cool the intercooler air charge is free, and the power from the exhaust to run the turbo compressor is free too. Your AC system is a direct load on the engine. If you use it to cool the intake charge, you lose. Ford started having good ideas quite a while ago. If you look at some of the most innovative things in cars now, Ford pioneered quite a few of them. Mass production on an assembly line Movable pedals One hell of a just-in-time operation at their plants Ford's pretty solid- they just need to work on their quality a bit more. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

04-30-2003, 12:42 AM	#17
XZILER8 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ne Posts: 263 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 16	Thanks for the info Calesta, the slam on ford was pretty much a joke....i know Henry was a pioneer and responsible for a lot of what we have today, but I just despise of fords in general (i've had three and they're all in the junk yard) anyways, back to the subject at hand: so since the A/C system is parasitic, do you think that the gains made from this kind of sytem would be equal to the loss from runnin the A/C. While there is a power loss with the A/C on, isn't it only about a 1 or 2 hp loss? or is it more? Could the initial loss of power from running the A/C be counteracted with a higher output alternator? any ideas on what kind of increase could be expected from cooling the air more so that what the intercooler is capable of doing? __________________ Now accepting applications for "Female Friend with Benefits "

04-30-2003, 01:54 PM	#18
liquid00meth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Laconia, NH Posts: 3,201 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 47	A/c drops alot more than 1 or 2 HP from the engine. It is pretty significant actually. No, the loss could not be counteracted witha bigger alternator. It doesn't change the fact that the engine has to RUN to A/c compressor, taking energy from the drivetrain. The reason the lightning system "charges" is so that the loading can take place before the actual power is needed (ie in the staging lane) so you can use it freely (without running the compressor) during "race" time. Better to understand it this way, the only way your going to gain any power from the motor is to capitalize on wasted energy, or to improve efficiency in a number of ways. __________________ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -The thought provoking George W. Bush

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
90' HB DX w/d15, auto \ going to d16 ECU QUESTION	lcompeau	ECU's, Electronics, and Tuning	2	05-28-2004 10:25 AM
hypothetical d series question	Tonyd0821	Engine Building	12	02-16-2004 11:32 PM
Stupid Noobie Question	crombie09	HYBRID -> ED-EF / DA	31	01-12-2004 02:20 PM
QUestion on LS swap	Hatchback 95 hybrid	HYBRID -> EG-EK / DC	3	08-23-2003 03:24 AM
Basic turbo question	zueke	Forced Induction	6	10-28-2002 07:04 AM

04-30-2003, 04:42 PM	#19
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	You're welcome, and no problem on the stab at Ford. Liquid has it right... you can't just add more stuff on there (alternator is parasitic, just like your AC compressor) to couteract the loss in power. Anything that's driven off the engine will eat power. You can't take say... 5 hp from the engine to make another 10 hp. That's just like getting free power- it's not possible. Now if you use the "free" energy (or the wasted stuff) to be productive, then you're increasing the effiency of your system. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

09-09-2006, 06:45 PM	#20
bandit1050 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Age: 29 Posts: 1 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 0	you guys do know that they now have the CRYo2 systems to cool your intercooler down ...so it would be pretty pointless to do that ..wouldnt you think?

09-10-2006, 01:53 AM	#21
hb91 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 7	honda a/c compressors ( on the 4 cyl's ) rarely take more than five horsepower. theoretically routing the a/c to cool the intercooler is a good idea. however when you take into consideration that the condenser for the a/c is on the high temperature side of the system it would be creating just as much heat as the evaparator ( low temperature side what is inside the cabin and would be what needs to be placed in front of the intercooler to acomplish said task ) is trying to eliminate thus making no effective cool air gains. as far as refrigerant names go: r-12 is a chlorofluorocarbon, old now illegal as part of the clean air act of 1991 stating that by 95 all cars must be changed to r-134a a hydrofluorocarbon and said to be less harmful to the environment. freon is dupont's name for r-12 suva is dupont's name for r-134a however most people call all refrigerants freon.

Hondaswap.com | Honda Technical & JDM styling Forums

Hypothetical Question