SolReaver

All right, I will be buying the most critical part of my turbo setup -the turbo- in a few weeks. Id like to get some different opinions from people on this board.

My setup-

B18b motor and tranny, 2.5 inch exhaust, stock internals, smc+(basically a afc-hack deal), 450 cc dsm injectors. Spearco intercooler, custom downpipe and intercooler piping. Tial 35mm, greddy bov. I may end up getting a msd btm if i run into detonation probems.

My goals-

Id like to break into the 12's on the above setup, on street tires, while also being a reliable car that i dont have to worry about things breaking. I will be running 8-10 psi on whatever turbo i get.

The turbos-

I have 2 turbos in mind. The first is a t3/t04e 60 trim/.63 a/r. The second is a t3/60-1. The specs and details for each are in the following links.


The t3/t04e

the t3/60-1

I do realize that traction will be a serious issue on a 12 sec fwd car, especially with no LSD (for now). Thats why im leaning in the direction of the larger t3/60-1. That will give me more time to build up speed before the turbo spools, which hopefully will minimize wheelspin.

Thanks in advance for the suggestions

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turbog2

I know someone who has one for sale

SolReaver

hmm...i wonder what kind of turbo it is

lol

as soon as you find out your specs then that turbo will be added to the list

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Integra1990

You're gonna push up to 10 psi into stock internals? thats lik a flashing stop sign to me. atleast do sum minor internal work, its always better and cheaper than blowin ur motor. break 12's on stock internals without blowin sumthin would hav to be a record of some type and id lik to hear about it wen u do it.

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LS/t

2locivic

if i was you i would go with the t3/t04e turbo it holds plenty of boost and can handle mass hp i just bought a t3/t4e turbo for my b18c5 and i would recommend this it would spool quick but prolly have a little lag off the line which would give u time to build speed not just sitting there and spinning sooo- just my 2 cents ...cya

SolReaver

Go to honda-tech.com and look at how many people run 12's on a LS/T on stock internals. And the way is see it- might as well boost it, and if some internal parts blows, throw some aftermarket parts in its place. Aftermarket parts cost the same whether i put them in now or later. Also, check out the new issue of SCC...LS/T hatch running 11.6 on stock internals and a blockguard.

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prawjEKt Cx

t3/t4......btw i knew a guy that's a god a fuel tuning, he pushed a whole bar on a stock b18b, but let me tell you the block was stock, but he had the shit tuned like a motherfucker



edit: i should probally add before i get flamed, it did blow up after it saw a 75 shot, but he knew it was gonna happen, but he did ride on a full bar daily for over a year.

Integra1990

well i stand corrected, but my attitude towards taht kinda stuff, is do it right the first time, so ill always say do internals before boost, but in the end its up to u not us.

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SolReaver

No, you dont need to stand corrected...its not a right/wrong question. I just would rather make use of the stock ls pistons/rods for as long as possible, rather than throw out a set with 17K miles on them. I figure if i can get a years use out of them, why spend the extra money right now?

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Integra1990

good point, but lets compromise how bout two stock pistons, then two after market pistons? haha

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cws13

Have you ever seen a block with a softball size hole in it from a rod bent like pac-man. That is why you should build it right off the jump. Every turbo kit for bolt-on use stops at 7 or 8 pounds--which ain't gonna buy you 12's without v-tec. You have everything else you need to build big power, why skimp on the most important part?

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SolReaver

Im gonna tell you something that a wise man *looks in the general direction of Brian* told me...

VTEC=fuel economy

You're saying that i will run faster with vtec? LS/T owns vtec/t. There is a huge post on this board somewhere that explains it more in depth.

Now, with the power levels that i plan on making, 230~ whp, that is going to be enough to destroy the stock motor almost immediately? I highly doubt it.

Anyway, i have seen very impressive results from b18b motors, using stock internals nonetheless, and i think if i can keep detonation in check, i wont have a problem with anything breaking immediately.

And to answer your question, "why skimp on the most important part?"

1. Its a lot of money to build a motor up.

2. I just would rather make use of the stock ls pistons/rods for as long as possible, rather than throw out a set with 17K miles on them. I figure if i can get a years use out of them, why spend the extra money right now?

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Silver94Teg

I'll have to agree with most of the other guys and say build it first! At 230whp you aren't going to see 12 seconds. You said you want a RELIABLE and fast car, so why half-ass it?

p.s. don't believe a damn word you read in an import mag!

E_SolSi

VTEC/T = good for dyno, shitty for drag .....

you make more power but the curve is shitty and you dont have a lot of "useable" power... the LS/T has a much more flat power curve that allows more power more of the time instead of just at the very top of your RPMs....

same car with an LS/T then with a GSR head for LS/VTEC/T

ls-- 404/330....1/4 mile= 10.4

gsr head LS/VTEC -- 440/310....1/4 mile 11.2

thats 36 more HP but .8 slower 1/4 mile.... whats the point

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pissedoffsol

ok-- heres me in MS paint



now, thats a typical curve for an ls and a gsr... no numbers--- just the basic shapes....
as you can tell- the gsr makes more PEAK power.

ok, lets make our usable range- aka, the gear box. when you top out, you shift and fall to say, 2000 rpms lower in the next gear.

so, here is our hypothetical TOTAL USABLE RANGE based on the same tranny for each given motor.



ok, now lets take the LS first.



so i can't draw... and im doing this very quickly. anyway.
THAT shaded area is the area (duh) under the cruve for the Ls. its the TOTAL usable range.
finding the derrivitive and the integral is where math comes in handy. if you don't how how to do these things, buy your self a book. consider your self a moron j/p
its advaced math- a lot of people don't even get to it in college. Being a CS major, i took it freshman year... now that is some 6 years ago now... lol so my memory of it is vauge. but- the basic concept of it is this:
picture a curve, such as the gay one i just drew.
now, imagine slicing it up into stairs or steps every 10 or so rpms (on the x axis)

it would look something like this:



the CHANGE in X, or delta X (delta is the triangle greek letter) is HOW FAR or CLOSE the stairs are together.
ultimately, it gets so close that there are millions of stairs-- so that there is next to no space between the curve and the top of the stair. as you can see now, there is a lot of space at each step.

man my memory is shot- and i don't know how to take this any further than this.... im not a math teacher.

so to cut to the chase- its like this:

when you calculate the TOTAL area under the curve via calculus, you will find that although the gsr motor makes more peak power, the total area is actually less.
here's an egaderated picture



now- as you can see- although the gsr climbs up at the end, comapre the 2 "trianlges" that are formed by the crossing.
even though the gsr makes more up top- the ls makes more power overall through the usable total power range.


ok- i also would like to add, that this is for FI only. in na applications, this would look much much different.
Even "I" would go vtec if i were to go NA.

thank you for reading... and happy deciphering my drawings

pissedoffsol

and after all that, i forgot to answer the real question here
lol

IMO, i'd go with the 60-1. t3/t4 is a fad... but we've had this convo before. i don't think its a good turbo for the street. it makes its power too fast- resulting in wheelspin- and not a launch and then power.

on the stock internal vs aftermarket,

if i had 1000, and my choice was rods/pistons or hondata... i'd take hondata in a second.

tuning tuning tuning tuning and tuning is what allows a motor to last.
i've seen plenty of BUILT blocks blow up at 5 psi
i've also seem plenty of stock blocks last years on 20 psi

the best of both worlds- tuned and built, but thats a lot of money.

as for the "use the parts till they break"
its not a BAD idea so to speak- but what sucks is that if you bend a rod or melt a piston, theres a GOOD chance your block's sleeves will suffer as well- ultimately resulting in MORE money spent in the long run, cuz now you gotta resleeve. one little scratch, and the wall is shot. it will never hold its full potential of compression. a simple compression test will tell you that.

IMO, on a budget-
I'd say fuck the vafc hack and internals
get some REAL injectors and hondata.

but hey, thats me.

SolReaver

Wow, thanks B for posting all that up. Now i know what post to point people to when they want to know why ls/t owns vtec/t.

Its looking like the t3/60-1 then..does that one i posted above look like a good size, or would you suggest a bigger one?

Back to the built block/stock debate...

If my motor lets go, and needs to be rebuilt- that bitch is gonna be solid as a rock before it goes back in. Bore/sleeve, complete build...etc. Only thing that concerns me is if it will hold up long enough for me to save up some money to build it.

B, i hear you on the whole hondata deal. But for me, its really out of the question.

1. I have no laptop

2. no hondata tuner for hundreds of miles, and i have no idea how to tune it properly

3. Its a shitload of money for hondata (ecu, laptop, injectors, all that rom burner/editor shit, etc)

4. I know many people look down on the afc hack/smc type of tuning, but after seeing many reviews on it from clubsi and honda-tech, it seems to be a solid unit, where i will be able to tune it myself on a dyno. Besides, after the turbo goes in i wont be running more than 4-5 psi, just to understand how to tune it, and to find out how good of a job its doing. But, if for some reason i dont like the way it works, no big deal, the whole system only cost me 175 dollars (50 for injectors and 125 for smc).

Hopefully this spring I will be able to answer the question- Can you go fast on a budget?

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chet

you WILL NOT go 12's with an LS transmission.

the differential will not handle the horsepower...and the transmission itself has gears that are way too long. GSR transmissions are the best for turbo...a guy named colin here in tampa runs a gsr transmission in his crx, with STOCK axles and went 10.20's against lisa kubo here in tampa. guess what, he's running a turbo gsr setup and if you asked him about ls-turbo he'd laugh when comparing the two setups.

i've seen a stock bore b16a that put down 406 whp. i'm not saying ls turbo's can't be fast, because they can...but the right cams will allow a turbo vtec setup to simply outperform non-turbo. variable valve timing is about economy in vx, hx's etc. the nsx, gsr, type r, s2000 all have vtec for a reason, because it makes power!

and if vtec is tuned, and the RIGHT cams are used you'll always pull on similar ls-t setups.

this is based on cars i've seen around here with these setups, and talking to a lot of people about the advantages to both.

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chet

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pissedoffsol

406 hp. yes, but read what i just wrote about. even though it will make more PEAK power- and i do NOT deny that, the total usable power band is more effective.

an LS with headwork to hold rpms similar to vtec (9000 lets say) can be had for less than the prioce of a stock vtec head.

now,
take a stock gsr vs a stock LS with this head headwork.
on the same tranny... which ever... so its a constant

I have $100 on the LS

chet, if you want to put your 100 on the gsr- by all means.

but know that you spent 2 grand more on it in the first place.

pissedoffsol

and as for the Ls differential being weaker....
thats where the LSD comes into play.

SolReaver

Well, this thread is starting to have a lot of conflicting info...

Over at honda-tech, i've seen a ton of sigs with something to the effect of:

stock b18b, xxx turbo kit, 10-11 psi, 12.7x or 12.8

This guy runs 12.8 on basically stock everything except for the sohc greddy turbo kit.

Anyway, the whole ls vs. gsr tranny, vtec vs. non vtec, x is not strong enough to make power...all that seems highly opinionated now.

There is only 1 way to find out what i will run, or whether or not my differential will hold together, or even if it will be a good idea to run a vtec head...i need to take it to the track

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chet

usable powerband is not a good argument, mainly because everyone will be shifting at 8k and keeping the rpm's above 6k the entire time, hence making more power than the ls.

and if what you're proposing is true, everyone would be running b18b's because they're a dime a dozen. VTEC is better technology and when tuned correctly, will ALWAYS make more power on similar setups.

this is why the fastest drivers utilize VTEC.

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chet

highly opinionated?

you must be kidding, ls transmissions are notorious for their WEAK differentials. they have single cones between each gear and i've seen 150whp shatter an ls differential. stock vs stock, GSR transmissions OWN ls transmissions.

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pissedoffsol

agreed.
but swap a quaiffe in either, and now really the only difference is the gear box. IMO, EVERY FWD car should have an LSD stock.


granted.
BUT- now take into consideration cam profiles. easily, you can get an LS cam ground to the exact lift/duration of a vtec's high-cam lobe.

Stock for stock, a vtec head is more ported and thus flows better.
getting back to my orrig point, an ls can be ported and built to the same if not better specs as a vtec head flows. given the same cam profile, and the ls's more displacemnt, and fact being that torque + rpm is what wins races- i got my money on the LS. still.