chet

the problem with this, is you'll make no power until you reach higher rpm's...mainly because the lift and duration will remain constant throughout the powerband.

this is why toda makes cams for vtec heads, because they can utilize a huge vtec lobe that makes great power at higher rpm's. now if you start having crazy lift/duration at low rpm's you'll just flood the engine and the right burn won't be taking place.

SolReaver

So the LS tranny gears are also inherently weaker than the GSR's? Or is it just the differential?

chet

the gears themselves are honda gears which are the same strength.

the differential and the fact that ls transmissions have single cones or one synchro between each gear while the gsr transmission has double synchro's between 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. this allows for a more durable transmission.

pissedoffsol

right- but you said yourself that that doesn't matter- because we will be betwewen 6 and 8 95% of the time anyway... and that was your string point for the vtec head. between lag and launch, the only time it will be really noticeable would be for the first half of 1st gear. and less power, really isn't a bad thing for getting a good launch- and then it just keeps pulling

crazy duration is not good for turbo in the first place. its all about high lift. furthermore, toda does NOT make a turbo grind to the best of my knowledge.
crower makes them for both t and n/a as well as non and vtec. so lets go there...

b series VTEC t from crower (they have2)

63411T Stage 2 - Turbo special design. Short duration = low overlap, high lift for increased performance. Requires 84161 spring/retainer kit.

Int-280 mid Exh-276 mid Int-230 mid Exh-226 mid Int-.465 mid Exh-.445 mid

63401T Stage 2 - Turbo special design. Short duration = low overlap, high lift for increased performance. Requires 68185 spring.

Int-280 mid Exh-276 mid Int-230 mid Exh-226 mid Int-.465 mid Exh-.445 mid

BOTH these cams have the same specs.

non vtec t crower cam

62402T Stage 2 - Turbo/Super Charger specially designed specifically for forced induction applications. Features short duration, high lift for added cylinder pressure and good bottom end power. Requires kit 84162.

235 / 235 190 / 190 .469 / .469

now i know those numbers don't mean much... BUT the durations of the vtec cams are much larger- simple comparison.
the lift of the non-vtec, 445/465 vs 469/469

turbo + lift = good
turbo + duration = blow by and wasted power.

pissedoffsol

i was not aware of the 'cones' being different.

i think that even though the synchros may be differernt, driver mashing comes into play on this as well. if you know how to drive and don't mis shift a lot, i think that that factor really doesn't play into durability.

and for more info on the cmas i used- http://crower.com/cat/import/honda/camshafts.shtml

chet

i'll respond in the morning...i'm going to sleep.

pissedoffsol

me and chet talked about this while we were going back and forth as well with some minor edits for space... hes passing out- but here's our convo that we had- it has a lot of good stuff in it as well.




--------------------------------------------------

pissedoffsolwork (12:36:43 AM): refresh that thread we are going at it in :-)
pissedoffsolwork (12:37:49 AM): :-) these are the type of threads i would like to have on the board all the time
chethewitt (12:39:25 AM): reply
pissedoffsolwork (12:45:55 AM): oh this is gonna be good :-)
chethewitt (12:46:21 AM): you've already been owned
chethewitt (12:46:26 AM): i'd quit while your'e ahead
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:46 AM): no way man
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:48 AM): i just owned you
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:50 AM): refresh :-)
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:53 AM): with REAL specs
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:54 AM): hehe
chethewitt (12:49:57 AM): i know toda doesn't make turbo cams
pissedoffsolwork (12:50:02 AM): i know
pissedoffsolwork (12:51:00 AM): who ever wins, really- no one will- i just like these topics- because it's based on fact- not opinion- yet it shows both sides of the wheel.
pissedoffsolwork (12:51:10 AM): i dunno- like i said, i wish all our topics were like this
chethewitt (12:57:00 AM): i'm tired
chethewitt (12:57:06 AM): i'll respond in the morning
pissedoffsolwork (12:57:50 AM): haha
pissedoffsolwork (12:57:54 AM): you gotta think about it :-)
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:05 AM): someone is getting owned :-)
chethewitt (12:58:08 AM): i'm too tired to respond correctly
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:10 AM): lol
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:15 AM): im just busting your balls
chethewitt (12:58:17 AM): and i want to ask cory about this also
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:21 AM): but you see my points, right?
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:24 AM): i think they are more than valid
chethewitt (12:58:39 AM): yes, but with crower cams i want to see the power they make
chethewitt (12:58:40 AM): throughout
chethewitt (12:58:52 AM): with vtec, you can run two sets of lobes...
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:56 AM): i wish they listed dynos too... its hard to comapre without it
chethewitt (12:58:59 AM): that allows for more tuning
chethewitt (12:59:06 AM): cory will know immediately
pissedoffsolwork (12:59:08 AM): agreed-
chethewitt (12:59:21 AM): which is why i have a hard time beliving
pissedoffsolwork (12:59:21 AM): but, like you said, after 1st gear- you are 6-8k and thats about it
chethewitt (12:59:35 AM): the crower cams aren't going to be effective down low, so now you're basically left with a setup
chethewitt (12:59:44 AM): that is great up top, and has nothing down low
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:05 AM): but with no crazy power down low- you can get a launch and not spin
chethewitt (1:00:20 AM): you're spinning in circles
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:21 AM): and then as you catch 5k or so- you start to pull the same as a vtec would
chethewitt (1:00:23 AM): why not have an even power band
chethewitt (1:00:32 AM): with vtec, thats what you can do
chethewitt (1:00:35 AM): and set the vtec point
chethewitt (1:00:38 AM): to best suit the setup
chethewitt (1:00:41 AM): so its even power
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:47 AM): an ls power band is very similar to a v8's as far as it's curve goes...
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:53 AM): kinda sorta
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:56 AM): its flatter
chethewitt (1:01:00 AM): but there is a compromise
chethewitt (1:01:08 AM): while you might* make better low/mid
chethewitt (1:01:12 AM): the top end will suffer
chethewitt (1:01:15 AM): and i don't see how this will change
chethewitt (1:01:19 AM): without vtec
pissedoffsolwork (1:01:23 AM): not if its the same cut as the cam on the vtec
chethewitt (1:01:33 AM): but thats like
pissedoffsolwork (1:01:37 AM): it will suffer a little down low, and then make similar power where it is
chethewitt (1:01:39 AM): engaging vtec at 2k
chethewitt (1:01:45 AM): i've done this
chethewitt (1:01:47 AM): just to fuck around
chethewitt (1:01:52 AM): and my car was dying
chethewitt (1:01:54 AM): almost stalling
pissedoffsolwork (1:01:58 AM): yeah
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:06 AM): because the air/fuel is right for it either
chethewitt (1:02:17 AM): partly yes
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:17 AM): changing the lobe requires tuning -
chethewitt (1:02:21 AM): but
chethewitt (1:02:30 AM): everyone would engage vtec at 2k
chethewitt (1:02:34 AM): if it were making more power
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:39 AM): i agree- it doesn't
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:51 AM): in fact, most bump it up as they get more built
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:54 AM): and can rev higher
chethewitt (1:02:58 AM): yes
chethewitt (1:03:00 AM): exactly
pissedoffsolwork (1:03:30 AM): but again, thats 1st gear.
chethewitt (1:03:44 AM): but you still need to be able to drive the car
chethewitt (1:03:47 AM): at normal rpm's
pissedoffsolwork (1:03:52 AM): and with a turbo- and the lag it creates- the cam profile really doesn't play as much into it as it does when you are NA
chethewitt (1:04:03 AM): won't you have more lag
chethewitt (1:04:07 AM): because the car is making less power?
chethewitt (1:04:18 AM): because the timing is basically fucked
chethewitt (1:04:22 AM): if you use the same cut
chethewitt (1:04:24 AM): as vtec
chethewitt (1:04:27 AM): down low?
pissedoffsolwork (1:04:36 AM): not necessarliy... lag is based on exhaust flow being low.. and hence, spinning the exhaust wheel slower
chethewitt (1:05:20 AM): the more power the motor makes
chethewitt (1:05:24 AM): the more exhaust it creates
chethewitt (1:05:30 AM): and the faster the turbo will spool
chethewitt (1:05:52 AM): hence small displacement motors being unable to spin big turbos
chethewitt (1:05:57 AM): which equates to a lot of lag
pissedoffsolwork (1:06:02 AM): see- thats another factor that we don't have any prrof on... just how MUCH exhaust flows out at any given rpm for a vtec vs a non vtec motor
chethewitt (1:06:07 AM): why not put a t-88 on a b16a?
chethewitt (1:06:18 AM): like i said, i will ask cory
pissedoffsolwork (1:06:27 AM): here's the thing
pissedoffsolwork (1:07:01 AM): honda motors, crave low pressure, but a lot of air mass.
supras on the other hand crave both high pressure (30 psi and stuff) as well as the high air mass
chethewitt (1:07:19 AM): ah
chethewitt (1:07:20 AM): i'm tired
chethewitt (1:07:24 AM): i can't think about this
chethewitt (1:07:26 AM): anymore
chethewitt (1:07:41 AM): i will come up with an appropriate response tomorrow
pissedoffsolwork (1:07:45 AM): so a big turbo, boosting 10 psi, will create a lot of air mass.
a small turbo, will have to boost much higher psi to create similar air mass lelves- and it will be feeding it the high pressure that they don't want
pissedoffsolwork (1:08:10 AM): i think im going to copy/paste this convo into the post as well- we talked about a lot of good stuff in this
pissedoffsolwork (1:09:12 AM): ok dude- I'll let you get some sleep :-)
pissedoffsolwork (1:09:22 AM): always a pleasure to argue about cars over the internet
pissedoffsolwork (1:09:23 AM): haha
chethewitt (1:09:55 AM): ok
chethewitt (1:09:58 AM): laterman
pissedoffsolwork (1:10:00 AM): late

---------------------------------------------------
so, there you have it... more stuff to follow

SolReaver

Heh, this thread is proving to be one of the most informative ones on this board...

chet

chet: 1

brian: 0

pissedoffsol

says who? neother of us have proved a point yet.

Chet: 0
Brian: 0

SolReaver

A little off topic, but after all thats been said, I think this is my new plan-

5-6 psi on some turbo, new goal- to break into the 13's, with no burnouts and soft launches, i think the differential will hold up for a while

then after i get some loot, on to stage 2....built motor, quaifeLSD/ clutch capble of 300 whp, hondata, 15-18 psi, hoping for high 11's on that setup possibly new turbo

new question- since i will only be running 5-6 psi, would it be a better idea to get a smaller turbo, then when the time comes sell that and get a bigger one?

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exhacker

For the record, a bar is approximately 14.503770 psi (pounds / square inch). If I'm not mistaken, that's also known as one "atm." (or atmosphere), or the pressure on an object at sea level under "standard" conditions.

-x

pissedoffsol

did you miss that? :P

bigger turbo- making more compressed air at less psi is what hondas love.

prawjEKt Cx

first and foremost, i am god damn impressed with this thread, i'm glad i signed up here.. it's amazing not to see a flame war going on, finally some sensible people...

pissedoffsol- i'm pretty inquiried about your airmass/pressure theory, but trying to visualize this shit on a few hours of sleep not to mention not any science classes at all in the last 3 years is driving me batshit, are you refferring to airmass as the total amount of air in the cylnder and obviously we know what pressure is... but wouldn't mass and pressure increase directly and proportionally with each other?? i'm not saying your wrong at all because i have a feeling there's somthing i'm not grasping here..

so saying your correct that honda motors love low boost and more airmass why aren't we running t78's at 5psi ... (bring on the lag arguement) and yes i know i should probally be posting when my mind is completely with me because i know i'm gonna get owned soon, but i'm not saying i'm right with anything i say, i'm trying to see if we can be on the same wave length.

prawjEKt Cx

ok before one of you owned me about the relationship to mass and pressure theories, i had my dad do it... now it clicks

he brought up the
v1p1=v2p2 forumula i havn't seen in years.l

in a nutshell, in case it didn't click to anybody else like it did to me earlier
a larger housing takes less psi to force the same mass of air, as where a smaller housing would take more pressure to push the same amount of air because

for instance look at v1 as being a larger volume turbo and v2 as being yes smaller..... i'm gonna just use generic numbers anyways so fuck it

if v1 had a volume of 100 and pressure of 20
and v2 had a volume of 50

(v1 X p1) 2000 cfm
------------ = ----------
v2 50 psi

so the pressure of 2 would be 40 psi

92CivicCx

i must be retarded cuz that makes no sence.

HondasHateMe

yeah...fuck a bunch of math.

prawjEKt Cx

i was backing up pissed off sol's theory that larger turbos create more of an airmass at a lower psi

92CivicCx

i m good at math but makes no sence to me .... maybe cuz i m tired.

chet

also, the rod/stroke ratio with b18b's is awful. its not meant for high rpm's, which means it will take a built motor to rev above 7k consistently. basically, b18b blocks are less efficient at higher rpm's and cause more heat and less power. this is a problem a lot of ls/vtec guys have when consistently revving unbuilt bottom ends above 7-8k.

prawjEKt Cx

how is the gsr so good up on top end, it's r/s is only 1.58 compared to the ls's 1.54

chet

the gsr block is better, and designed by honda to rev higher. and the rod stroke differences are significant...

SolReaver

GSR head flows a lot better, has higher compression, has better high rpm cam lobes, and like chet said it has a better r/s ratio which leads to it revving higher. It has a good top end- but that brings us back to the original arguement- which is more desireable for a turbo motor?

Silver94Teg

The LS. Lower CR, no vtec (so no long duration lobes to screw with the turbo), etc. I think the argument originally started over which transmission was better for boost, the ls or gsr. There's no question that the ls ENGINE is better for boost. If you want to rev-high, then the gsr is better. Personally i'd rather have torque on tap.

chet

this is wrong...gsr cams have excellent lobes for turbo. type r cams are too big, but gsr cams are used in most of the cars around here. the ls bottom end is weaker, and is more prone to spun rod bearings. plus its rod/ratio is poor and causes extreme heat and isn't as efficient.

fact: gsr motors make more torque compared to ls motors in the lower rpm's and more power up top.

so again, you're wrong. i'm not sure who spreads this misinformation, but its simply not true, and if you need anymore proof look at the yellow crx lining up vs lisa kubo. not only is he running a turbo gsr setup, but another guy i know has put down over 500hp and over 350 torque with a turbo nitrous setup. ls motors wouldn't touch these numbers on similar setups.

so basically, the ls motor needs to be built that much more to achieve the same numbers...

its like starting with a weaker platform to achieve the same goals...and in the end its not cheaper and not more efficient.

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