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GSRCRXsi · 01-09-2003, 09:34 PM

ok i was talking to my friend today and he was tellin me about his plans for his car. he wants a del sol and wants to either swap in a h22a or a b18c5. he said hes going to boost whichever engine goes in. i tried to tell him and explain to him y these engines are the worst for boost, h22 bc u need to resleeve to do anything plus it has vtec which would take time to tune it right. and the B18C5 bc its a type r not to mention the vtec problem. now what i want to know is EXACTLY why the B18C5 is bad for boost besides the vtec issure. what specifically is it about this engine that turns pepole away from boost. i mean i know you can boost anything with realatively low psi on stock internals, but y? also he said sumthing to me about butting a turbo and supercharger on the engine at the same time. has anyone ever seen this done? i mean if you think about it theoretically it would work since they both mount differently to the engine. can this be done? how much boost would this create? would this be worth the effort? and one more question, he said he has seen a B18C5 take 20 psi on stock internals, is this possible, cuz i dont think so. so if you guys could answer my questions so i can break it down for this kid, i would appreciate it. thanks.

asmallsol · 01-09-2003, 11:02 PM

Ok, if he wants VTEC and turbo, (vtec with turbo is not the best) then the much better choice is the b18c (if he wants to keep handling good) because you pay so much for the TYPE R that is designed to be a NA engine with high compression pistons, aggressive cams, ect. To make that thing take any amount of boost, you have to do tunes of tunning, other wise you will get early detonation. sp? With boost you want to run lower compressions so then you would have to take the HC pistons out, something that you paid extra for. There is no problem running boost on them, it is just more cost effecint to do it on a b18c. The b18c has low enough compression that it can take some boost (not super high levels though) and not have to lower the compression to do so.

ps. sorry if i kinda just rambled on and on.

GSRCRXsi · 01-10-2003, 01:59 PM

nah its ok, anyone else have anything they'd like to add? also id like to know more about this turbo and supercharger combo. anyone?

prawjEKt Cx · 01-10-2003, 02:33 PM

it'll be a bitchin setup..... here's a dyno of a turbo b18c1 on 9psi

but i don't know how it's honestly making that much power
b18c1/turbo dyno

B16 · 01-10-2003, 02:57 PM

yes, if you want to boost a 1.8L vtec motor, do the B18C1, not the C5, you'll be replacing all the internals of the C5 that makes it a C5, so there is no point

the block castings are slightly different, but not enough to justify the $2,000 est. difference.

GSRCRXsi · 01-10-2003, 03:01 PM

ok im not trying to boost anything, well not yet, i was jus asking for my friend. but back to my main question now, he said hes seen a B18C5 with a turbo and a supercharger. is it possible to have both? how much boost would this create, if its even possible? would it be too dangerous or what? if it is possible without blowin urself to hell that would be badass.

92CivicCx · 01-10-2003, 04:15 PM

i have seen a mr2 with that setup but know nothing of how it works

SixtySecondAssassin · 01-10-2003, 04:44 PM

the mr2 used some kind of solenoid to control the switch between the two. he used the sc at low rpm and switched to the turbo at higher rpm.

silentSCREAM · 01-10-2003, 05:04 PM

dont waste the time or money oh the h22 in a del sol. way too much handling is compromised. and h22a can probably take more boost stock than a b18c5 due to the lower compression ratio and the closed deck design of the block.

the b18c5 is a good choice should your friend plan to stay ALL MOTOR. the compression ratio of 11.1 to 1 is way to high to make reliable boost. the open deck is also weak and would require a block guard like the one that Nuformz makes.

If he plans to boost the motor, the best bet would be o buy a b18c1 (gsr) or b16 motor. With the money saved over the type r motor he could build up the motor to handle more reiable boost. I would go with some nice low compression pistons, a block guard, valves and springs, shot peening tje stock rods and most definitely a clutch. A simple and effective vtec controller like the SFC-VTEC from FIELDS would be very beneficial.

Or buy a b18a (ls) motor and use all the cash saved on a fully bomb proof block and head. A guy I know has a semi built, fuly boosted ls motor in his crx and consistently hits mid 11s.

Also screw the Jackson Racing supercharger. its a waste of money. Visit the website www.theoldone.com to find out how to make that jr one to work. If you want to s/c the motor go with vortech.

cws13 · 01-11-2003, 04:20 PM

THe MR.2 was in the ultimate street car challange and was plauged with problems. Anyway the SC would give you alot of bottom end and the turbo would take over up top with some custom valving. Unless you have goobbbs of money..., your talking a 10K plus investment for the motor and another pile to keep it on the ground. As we have been talking about a little lately, turbo lag is a friend. Cutting this lag out with a supplemental Supercharger would create wild traction problems. Remember, the MR2 is mid-engined and has physics in it's favor.

silentSCREAM · 01-11-2003, 05:25 PM

gsrcrxsi -----are you sure your friend saw a b18c5 with both a turbo and a supercharger? maybe he saw a vortech supercharger on a b18c1 with a red valve cover (gay.) the vortech might have fooled your friend since the centrifugal design makes it look more like a turbo than the roots style that jackson racing uses, in that it is acutally a part of the intake manifold.

prawjekt cx----- those dyno numbers are probably true, but there is no way that the motor is stock. unless it is on race gas, the motor wont hold the 9lbs reliably if it is stock.

SolReaver · 01-11-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by asmallsol@Jan 9 2003, 11:07 PM
Ok, if he wants VTEC and turbo, (vtec with turbo is not the best) then the much better choice is the b18c (if he wants to keep handling good) because you pay so much for the TYPE R that is designed to be a NA engine with high compression pistons, aggressive cams, ect. To make that thing take any amount of boost, you have to do tunes of tunning, other wise you will get early detonation. sp? With boost you want to run lower compressions so then you would have to take the HC pistons out, something that you paid extra for. There is no problem running boost on them, it is just more cost effecint to do it on a b18c. The b18c has low enough compression that it can take some boost (not super high levels though) and not have to lower the compression to do so.

ps. sorry if i kinda just rambled on and on.

Why would you want to run lower compression pistons with turbo? You will spool the turbo faster with high compression, and you will make more power. The turbo setups of old involve a lot of boost and very low compression. With all the new engine management available now, and there a lot more highly skilled tuners out there now, high compression and low boost is the way to do it. There are a ton of type r turbo setups out there making a shitload of power.

Low compression motors are good if youre poor (like me)

and dont have the money for a stand alone, yet still want a solid motor, thats pretty quick.

SolReaver · 01-11-2003, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silentSCREAM@Jan 10 2003, 05:09 PM
Also screw the Jackson Racing supercharger. its a waste of money. Visit the website www.theoldone.com to find out how to make that jr one to work. If you want to s/c the motor go with vortech.

Youre joking, right? The Vortech unit is, IMO, the biggest pile of shit ever conceived. Highly overrated. It has all the lag of a turbo and the weak top end of a supercharger. Its really the worst of both worlds. You will make boost on a bigass turbo before you make boost on the VSC.

And- you never make full boost. The higher you rev it the higher the boost goes. Not only that- they take hp away from your car due to parasitic drag from the belt and pulley to drive the blower.

If you want to be slow and have lag- get the VSC. If you want to have no lag- get the Jackson racing blower, then have endyn rework it to gain more power. If you want to own- get a turbo

How many fast hondas are running superchargers? Thats right- none. Turbo owns. There was a Car and Driver issue a while ago where the Vortech Si couldnt even be tested cause it broke.

Click this to understand fully why centrifugal superchargers suck.

silentSCREAM · 01-13-2003, 02:20 AM

solreaver---- So how much is that jackson supercharger and endyn's work gonna cost? more than a reliable turbo setup. At least you can cool down the intake charge on the vortech. And your right, there ARE NO FAST SUPERCHARGED HONDAS on the street. If you would read what I wrote you would notice that I'm hinting to they guy to go turbo.

I personally am an all motor guy.

And why put low compression pistons in a street driven turbo car? Because regardless of how many "highly skilled tuners" there are there is no accounting for driver error. And low compression pistons have less of a chance of detonating. And turbos are made to do what again? Make boost right? So why waste money on a turbo if you are gonna make is run low boost because you have high compression? Might as well just save the money an go all motor.

SolReaver · 01-13-2003, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silentSCREAM@Jan 13 2003, 02:25 AM
solreaver---- So how much is that jackson supercharger and endyn's work gonna cost? more than a reliable turbo setup. At least you can cool down the intake charge on the vortech. And your right, there ARE NO FAST SUPERCHARGED HONDAS on the street. If you would read what I wrote you would notice that I'm hinting to they guy to go turbo.

I personally am an all motor guy.

And why put low compression pistons in a street driven turbo car? Because regardless of how many "highly skilled tuners" there are there is no accounting for driver error. And low compression pistons have less of a chance of detonating. And turbos are made to do what again? Make boost right? So why waste money on a turbo if you are gonna make is run low boost because you have high compression? Might as well just save the money an go all motor.

Quote:

solreaver---- So how much is that jackson supercharger and endyn's work gonna cost? more than a reliable turbo setup.

Uhh...exactly. Thats why superchargers suck and turbos own. I am debating between the VSC and the JRSC...not between either of those and a turbo. Turbo>roots blower> centrifugal blower, IMO

Fact is- at lower boost levels you will make more power with higher compression, and the turbo will spool faster than a similar engine with lower boost.

Driver error? What do you mean by that? Like the driver messing up the tuning,? Yes the lower compression will prevent detonation as compared to a higher compression motor.

pissedoffsol · 01-13-2003, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silentSCREAM@Jan 13 2003, 02:25 AM
solreaver---- So how much is that jackson supercharger and endyn's work gonna cost?

free. the endyn supercharger is probably the biggest hoax since area 51

SolReaver · 01-13-2003, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pissedoffsol+Jan 13 2003, 03:41 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pissedoffsol @ Jan 13 2003, 03:41 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-silentSCREAM@Jan 13 2003, 02:25 AM
solreaver---- So how much is that jackson supercharger and endyn's work gonna cost?

free. the endyn supercharger is probably the biggest hoax since area 51 [/b][/quote]
We are talking about the Jackson racing charger that has been modded to endyn specs, not the actual endyn supercharger. Calesta posted a while ago that he has seen the gains in person on a dyno, and apparently the work endyn does on the blower is quite impressive.

pissedoffsol · 01-13-2003, 04:17 AM

oh, my bad y0!

silentSCREAM · 01-13-2003, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SolReaver@Jan 13 2003, 02:39 AM
[

Uhh...exactly. Thats why superchargers suck and turbos own. I am debating between the VSC and the JRSC...not between either of those and a turbo. Turbo>roots blower> centrifugal blower, IMO

Fact is- at lower boost levels you will make more power with higher compression, and the turbo will spool faster than a similar engine with lower boost.

Driver error? What do you mean by that? Like the driver messing up the tuning,? Yes the lower compression will prevent detonation as compared to a higher compression motor.

By driver error I mean things such as missing a shift and over-revving, forgetting to using premium gas or octane booster, etc.

And in a sense turbo lag is somewhat beneficial in a street driven fwd car. Not only do the front wheels need to steer, they need to provide accelational grip. If say 250ft/lbs. was to hit those front tires instantly, the car would go nowhere fast. The lag allows the tires to hook up before providing full boost. That is why pros use things like "scramble boost" on their drag cars, so that the car launches with less boost and hit thie high boost button when the car is hooked up.

SolReaver · 01-13-2003, 04:30 AM

Quote:

such as missing a shift and over-revving,

rev limiter, stock one will do just fine

Quote:

forgetting to using premium gas or octane booster, etc

Driver is a fucktard and shouldnt be driving a turbo car anyway.

silentSCREAM · 01-13-2003, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SolReaver@Jan 13 2003, 04:35 AM

Driver is a fucktard and shouldnt be driving a turbo car anyway.

you'd be suprised at what people get away with

GSRCRXsi · 01-13-2003, 03:16 PM

ok guys i saw the actual article about the car. i was from superstreet (i know the mag is ghey) and heres the specs:

Integra Type R (B18C5)
Stock internals 11:1 compression
HKS Twin Charger System composed of both turbo and supercharger
SC set at 4.5 psi
Turbo set at 16 Psi
HKS F-Con fuel managment system

i could hardly believe it when i saw it. it looked pretty sweet under the hood but i cant imagine the stock pistons and rods taking that much pressure. but i swear thats exactly what the article said, and it had pics to back it up. no hp ratings or anything like that, but it said they were gonna put it up on the dyno sometime in the near future. this sounds crazy to me.personally i think it will blow up if they push it. also what was funny was it was riced out like a mother. custom everything, body kit, $10k headlights, custom upholstery, big ass sound system, and different rims on each side of the car, and to top it off, a big ass wing on the back that was almost as tall as if not taller than the car. they called it the Maguiers car or something. let me know what you guys think.

cws13 · 01-14-2003, 06:16 PM

High compression and pressure spikes with boost are haarrrrd on a motor. The law of diminishing returns comes on quick. There is no amount of engine management out there that is going to refute thermodynamics.

Every boosted race team runs low compression for a reason. All three of the supercharged, not turboed, (only 5 psi here) type-R's around here came in on hooks with blown motors because of COMPRESSION RATIO.

GSRCRXsi · 01-14-2003, 06:23 PM

i understand exactly what your trying to say, and i agree with your 100%, but i have seen this, and i still cant belive it. and high compression with boost is possible, its just harder to tune. but even tho this car does have this setup, i bet they havent driven it hard at all, prolly drivin it like a granny, cuz i still say that it will blow once they push it hard. i dont think the stock pistons and rods can take the pressure.

01-09-2003, 11:02 PM	#2
asmallsol Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Houghton/Livonia Michigan Age: 23 Posts: 8,101 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 93 del Sol Gas sipper Rep Power: 101	Ok, if he wants VTEC and turbo, (vtec with turbo is not the best) then the much better choice is the b18c (if he wants to keep handling good) because you pay so much for the TYPE R that is designed to be a NA engine with high compression pistons, aggressive cams, ect. To make that thing take any amount of boost, you have to do tunes of tunning, other wise you will get early detonation. sp? With boost you want to run lower compressions so then you would have to take the HC pistons out, something that you paid extra for. There is no problem running boost on them, it is just more cost effecint to do it on a b18c. The b18c has low enough compression that it can take some boost (not super high levels though) and not have to lower the compression to do so. ps. sorry if i kinda just rambled on and on. __________________ Collin Material Science and Engineering Michigan Technological University

01-10-2003, 02:57 PM	#5
B16 Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: yay area, CA Age: 31 Posts: 6,759 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 126	yes, if you want to boost a 1.8L vtec motor, do the B18C1, not the C5, you'll be replacing all the internals of the C5 that makes it a C5, so there is no point the block castings are slightly different, but not enough to justify the $2,000 est. difference. __________________ 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 8 2004 BMW 325i 2000 Mercedes Benz ML 430 1994 Honda Civic Del Sol VTEC (race kaa)

01-10-2003, 04:15 PM	#7
92CivicCx Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: man+k+toe Posts: 5,168 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 66	i have seen a mr2 with that setup but know nothing of how it works __________________ current cars 1996 accord ex, new dd 2000 Plymouth Voyager, wifes whip www.fivezeroseven.com

01-10-2003, 04:44 PM	#8
SixtySecondAssassin Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,071 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 25	the mr2 used some kind of solenoid to control the switch between the two. he used the sc at low rpm and switched to the turbo at higher rpm. __________________ .....deagle.....

01-11-2003, 04:20 PM	#10
cws13 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Athens,GA Posts: 484 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 19	THe MR.2 was in the ultimate street car challange and was plauged with problems. Anyway the SC would give you alot of bottom end and the turbo would take over up top with some custom valving. Unless you have goobbbs of money..., your talking a 10K plus investment for the motor and another pile to keep it on the ground. As we have been talking about a little lately, turbo lag is a friend. Cutting this lag out with a supplemental Supercharger would create wild traction problems. Remember, the MR2 is mid-engined and has physics in it's favor. __________________ 1320 Motorsports Athens,GA <a href=\'http://www.1320motorsports.com\' target=\'_blank\'>1320 MOTORSPORTS</a>


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01-10-2003, 02:33 PM	#4
prawjEKt Cx Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: upstate NY Age: 26 Posts: 551 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 20	it'll be a bitchin setup..... here's a dyno of a turbo b18c1 on 9psi but i don't know how it's honestly making that much power b18c1/turbo dyno

01-10-2003, 05:04 PM	#9
silentSCREAM Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 15	dont waste the time or money oh the h22 in a del sol. way too much handling is compromised. and h22a can probably take more boost stock than a b18c5 due to the lower compression ratio and the closed deck design of the block. the b18c5 is a good choice should your friend plan to stay ALL MOTOR. the compression ratio of 11.1 to 1 is way to high to make reliable boost. the open deck is also weak and would require a block guard like the one that Nuformz makes. If he plans to boost the motor, the best bet would be o buy a b18c1 (gsr) or b16 motor. With the money saved over the type r motor he could build up the motor to handle more reiable boost. I would go with some nice low compression pistons, a block guard, valves and springs, shot peening tje stock rods and most definitely a clutch. A simple and effective vtec controller like the SFC-VTEC from FIELDS would be very beneficial. Or buy a b18a (ls) motor and use all the cash saved on a fully bomb proof block and head. A guy I know has a semi built, fuly boosted ls motor in his crx and consistently hits mid 11s. Also screw the Jackson Racing supercharger. its a waste of money. Visit the website www.theoldone.com to find out how to make that jr one to work. If you want to s/c the motor go with vortech.

01-11-2003, 05:25 PM	#11
silentSCREAM Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 15	gsrcrxsi -----are you sure your friend saw a b18c5 with both a turbo and a supercharger? maybe he saw a vortech supercharger on a b18c1 with a red valve cover (gay.) the vortech might have fooled your friend since the centrifugal design makes it look more like a turbo than the roots style that jackson racing uses, in that it is acutally a part of the intake manifold. prawjekt cx----- those dyno numbers are probably true, but there is no way that the motor is stock. unless it is on race gas, the motor wont hold the 9lbs reliably if it is stock.

01-13-2003, 02:20 AM	#14
silentSCREAM Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 15	solreaver---- So how much is that jackson supercharger and endyn's work gonna cost? more than a reliable turbo setup. At least you can cool down the intake charge on the vortech. And your right, there ARE NO FAST SUPERCHARGED HONDAS on the street. If you would read what I wrote you would notice that I'm hinting to they guy to go turbo. I personally am an all motor guy. And why put low compression pistons in a street driven turbo car? Because regardless of how many "highly skilled tuners" there are there is no accounting for driver error. And low compression pistons have less of a chance of detonating. And turbos are made to do what again? Make boost right? So why waste money on a turbo if you are gonna make is run low boost because you have high compression? Might as well just save the money an go all motor.

01-13-2003, 04:17 AM	#18
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	oh, my bad y0!

01-14-2003, 06:16 PM	#23
cws13 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Athens,GA Posts: 484 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 19	High compression and pressure spikes with boost are haarrrrd on a motor. The law of diminishing returns comes on quick. There is no amount of engine management out there that is going to refute thermodynamics. Every boosted race team runs low compression for a reason. All three of the supercharged, not turboed, (only 5 psi here) type-R's around here came in on hooks with blown motors because of COMPRESSION RATIO. __________________ 1320 Motorsports Athens,GA <a href=\'http://www.1320motorsports.com\' target=\'_blank\'>1320 MOTORSPORTS</a>

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