Hondaswap.com | Honda Technical & JDM styling Forums

Alans97 · 08-28-2006, 04:29 PM

New guy here in the Honda world and looking for advice. My daughter has a 97 Civic EX (automatic) with 125k miles, and it has an oil leak (not from the cam seal) at the front corner (Driver side) of the head. Took it to a garage and he said I would probably need a new head (also said he never saw an oil leak from there before). Then he said if I replaced the head there is a good chance the bottom end won't hold up. I found a shop in South Florida to replace the engine (D16Y8) with a used engine with approx. 50k miles, for $1500 complete. I have been trying to learn about swaps on Hondas but it seems they are a little more difficult than what I have done in the past (60's & 70's American muscle cars) with OBD 0,1,2, what engine is compatable with what system, and front wheel drive. I found a couple of D17A2 engines (00-05) but I cannot find any compatabilty articles. She uses this car for basic transportation and does not want it hotrodded. I have even thought about going to a Tuner night at a local spot to see if anyone could help me there. Any help, or advice on what to do what be appreciated.

get_nick · 08-28-2006, 04:37 PM

i would stick with a stock d16y8. i don't see why you wouldn't be able to just repair the leak. it's hard to tell where the leak is coming from. it may just be a valve cover gasket. $1500 is pretty spending. Honda engines are pretty easy to swap because all the plugs match right up. the front wheel drive is something a little different from you muscle cars, but you basically just have to pull the axles out of the tranny. i would take it to a honda specific shop. i know there are a lot of hondaswap members here in florida. maybe they can help you save money and help you with the labor.

reckedracing · 08-28-2006, 04:51 PM

1500 seems like a knot and a half for a simple motor replacement, especially just a sohc vtec

look in the local yards, you should be able to find one for 500 max, and you can prob get someone to put it in for 500 max...

if it were my car i wouldn't pay over 600 for motor and install...
you have pics of this leak?
sounds odd between and head and block surfaces
did it overheat? was the car on fire?
you might even be able to just mill the head and slap it back on

you sure its not the valve cover gasket?

pissedoffsol · 08-28-2006, 04:58 PM

can you post a pic of the leak?

Alans97 · 08-28-2006, 06:28 PM

No I cannot take a picture of the leak. It is below the valve cover and above the oil pan. It is difficult to see exactly where it is coming from because the engine is so close to the fender, but there seems to be a cover in front of the cam and it seems to be below (closer to the ground) that also, (maybe a crank seal?). I removed some skirting under the radiator to try to see better and I didn't see anything obvious. No, the car was not overheated and it did not catch fire either.

Alans97 · 08-28-2006, 06:29 PM

Would any of you guys just replace the head and see what happens or would you go for the engine?

Silverchild79 · 08-28-2006, 06:42 PM

front cover seal? I had to change mine on the S14 last year. If you can clean the engine they sell a dye which shows up under a black light. You just dump it in your oil and drive for two days then use the light to chase the leak.

If it's the front cover seal then your engine SHOULD BE fine

Alans97 · 08-28-2006, 06:54 PM

I will gunk down the motor tomorrow and pull the left front wheel and see if I see anything. I didn't know there was a front cover seal. The garage told me there was a hole in the cover incase the water pump leaked you would see it. Maybe I need to go to another garage that is Honda friendly.

Airjockie · 08-28-2006, 06:55 PM

first, degrease the engine, squirt some simple green everywhere and hose it off..advoid getting water on the dizzy and alt. then run the car around the block for 5 minutes and see if you have the leak visable, and we'll go from there. Changing an engine due to an oil leak is overkill....

Second, jack the car and put a socket on all the oilpan bolts.

3rd...replace the valce cover gasket...$10-20 at autozone, and while you have the valve cover off, adjust the valves if your mechanically inclined... you might get a little more compression and the car will run better after a good tweeking...and replace the spark plugs and wires...since the prices for those parts are cheap nowdays, it never hurts to throw a new set in once in a while.

4th, when you have the valcover off, take a look at the camshaft seal, wipe any excess oil from the are with a lint free cloth doused with rubbing alcohol and apply a bead of silicone around the seal, then use a wet finger and smooth out the bead and to get it to smear around good.the more it smear;s, the better the bond.

5th, just drive the car till it dies...then change the engine and drive for another 50-100K miles...if the oil leak is bad enough, keep a quart in the trunk, and decent sized cardboard and park over the cardboard if you care about the driveway.

6th...if it ain't leaking, then it's out of oil....add a quart. hehe

And now I don't feel old anymore...if your daughter is driving, then that means your at least 35+ years old....

Silverchild79 · 08-28-2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alans97

I will gunk down the motor tomorrow and pull the left front wheel and see if I see anything. I didn't know there was a front cover seal. The garage told me there was a hole in the cover incase the water pump leaked you would see it. Maybe I need to go to another garage that is Honda friendly.

they could be right, I drive a Nissan :-)

but the symptoms sound similar so I thought I'd share. In my case the oil was making it onto the fan... I dont think I need to tell you how hard that made it to troubleshoot...

Alans97 · 08-28-2006, 07:27 PM

Airjockie, I am sure I will see the leak after 5 minutes, (probably after 2). I ran the car up on ramps this afternoon and checked all the oil pan bolts, got just a touch from most of them. Replacing the valve cover gasket is something I will do tomorrow but the cam seal was replaced a couple of weeks ago when the timing belt was done, but I will do as you said. When you check the valve adjustment on these engines is it done hot or cold? Come to think of it, there was no leak before the timing belt replacment. hhhhmmmmm......

Silverchild79 · 08-28-2006, 07:29 PM

cold, according to my old mechinic, 97 degress or less, also there should be some friction/resistance when inserting or removing the feeler gauge(after adjustment).. like 25in lbs, but nothing crazy

Cashizslick · 08-28-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airjockie

3rd...replace the valce cover gasket...$10-20 at autozone, and while you have the valve cover off, adjust the valves if your mechanically inclined... you might get a little more compression and the car will run better after a good tweeking...and replace the spark plugs and wires...since the prices for those parts are cheap nowdays, it never hurts to throw a new set in once in a while.

Do the center valve cover gaskets while you are at it. I didnt change those the last time I had my valve cover off and i started getting oil in my spark plug chambers because the seals hardened.

They are an extra $2 each or so.

Cashizslick · 08-28-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airjockie

And now I don't feel old anymore...if your daughter is driving, then that means your at least 35+ years old....

Unless hes from Springfield

pissedoffsol · 08-28-2006, 11:30 PM

"left" wheel meaning driver side?

oh, and moving this to a tech forum

Alans97 · 08-29-2006, 08:20 AM

Yes driver side. Also thank you for not berating me for posting in the wrong forum. I started out with just wanting to say hi like the forum stated for me to do the first time.

reckedracing · 08-29-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

but the cam seal was replaced a couple of weeks ago when the timing belt was done, but I will do as you said. When you check the valve adjustment on these engines is it done hot or cold? Come to think of it, there was no leak before the timing belt replacment. hhhhmmmmm......

yea, this is a bit suspicious...
that whole timing belt cover can be removed with relative ease...
you'll need to pull the belts and crank pulley but it'll give you a pretty clear view of everything on that side of the motor...
sounds to me like whoever did the work fucked something up
check into hondabond for cam seals etc...

hybrid_b18 · 09-01-2006, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airjockie

apply a bead of silicone around the seal, then use a wet finger and smooth out the bead and to get it to smear around good.the more it smear;s, the better the bond.

WRONG!!!!!!!
Sorry but at my shop SAE certified, you neve apply silicone to acam seals. Maybe in the corners before and after the seal but never around the whole seal.

Why you telling him to do all that stuff any way? without pics we cant telll where its coming from to better help this gentlemen and his problem. I dont know how it is in FL, but labor rate here is @80/hr. A simple d series engine swap would cost $600 plus parts ie. complete d16y8 and shop supplies. Final bill approx. $1200.

I think if you took a weekend out to do it yourself you could figure it out. jsut graba chilton and go from there.

good luck.

you could always bring it up to us

Alans97 · 09-01-2006, 08:59 AM

Just an update.... I will be out of town for the weekend so I am taking the car to 'The Jap Shop' to have them look at it when I come back. They too feel something is wrong from the timing belt change. I explained my situation with the car and they told me I can stand with them while they work on the car to see what the problem is. I will post what they find next week. Thank you for all the replies to this point. Alan

Alans97 · 09-04-2006, 06:02 PM

Is it possible there could be a small leak where the power steering pump bracket bolts to the head? I could have sworn there was something bubbling from where the bracket meets the head. I was able to get about an eighth of a turn on the bolt then I sprayed 409 or something like that on it and it seems to have quit bubbling. I still think the majority of the leak is coming from either directly below the crank or immediately behind it (firewall side) of the motor. I will find out more Wed morning when it hits the shop. Another quick question...where is the oil filter located? Alan (97 EX) Can't quite get under the car to see it.

pissedoffsol · 09-04-2006, 08:26 PM

the bolt holes to the pwr steering bracket do not puncture into the "wet" part of the block, so its not probable.

reikoshea · 09-04-2006, 09:06 PM

oil filter is on the firewall side of the block under the intake.

might be a main seal, but i dont see how the timing belt change could have caused that problem...just plain weird situation youve got.

I think you might have found a good shop though, i cant remember the last time a garage mechanic let me watch them work....cept we let people do it at our shop cause we are realitively small.

Alans97 · 09-06-2006, 10:47 PM

Oil leak is fixed!!! Turns out the mechanic who did the timing belt used non-Honda cam and crank seals and they were the problem. The Jap Shop in Boca Raton,Fl took the thing apart and found the problem and used Honda seals and now there is no leak. We are going to change the oil pan gasket next week just for good measure. Thank you for all your responses. Alan

Calesta · 09-07-2006, 09:48 PM

I've been following this thread since you started it, but never posted.. I'm glad that you're getting the information you're looking for on our site. Keep up the good work on the car!

97hatch · 09-18-2006, 08:37 PM

as almost every one on here will tell you if you want to keep honda reliablty only use OEM parts for repairs

08-28-2006, 04:29 PM	#1
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Old man looking for advice New guy here in the Honda world and looking for advice. My daughter has a 97 Civic EX (automatic) with 125k miles, and it has an oil leak (not from the cam seal) at the front corner (Driver side) of the head. Took it to a garage and he said I would probably need a new head (also said he never saw an oil leak from there before). Then he said if I replaced the head there is a good chance the bottom end won't hold up. I found a shop in South Florida to replace the engine (D16Y8) with a used engine with approx. 50k miles, for $1500 complete. I have been trying to learn about swaps on Hondas but it seems they are a little more difficult than what I have done in the past (60's & 70's American muscle cars) with OBD 0,1,2, what engine is compatable with what system, and front wheel drive. I found a couple of D17A2 engines (00-05) but I cannot find any compatabilty articles. She uses this car for basic transportation and does not want it hotrodded. I have even thought about going to a Tuner night at a local spot to see if anyone could help me there. Any help, or advice on what to do what be appreciated.

08-28-2006, 04:37 PM	#2
get_nick The G37.... Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Washington State Age: 29 Posts: 9,992 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Black G37, '07 R6 Rep Power: 266	i would stick with a stock d16y8. i don't see why you wouldn't be able to just repair the leak. it's hard to tell where the leak is coming from. it may just be a valve cover gasket. $1500 is pretty spending. Honda engines are pretty easy to swap because all the plugs match right up. the front wheel drive is something a little different from you muscle cars, but you basically just have to pull the axles out of the tranny. i would take it to a honda specific shop. i know there are a lot of hondaswap members here in florida. maybe they can help you save money and help you with the labor. __________________ I changed the page layout. let me know what you think. I need feedback. www.obamacies.com

08-28-2006, 04:51 PM	#3
reckedracing TTIWWOP Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: 845 Area, NY Age: 29 Posts: 15,381 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 90 z6-t hatch, 94 Bagged S10, 91 Lifted Mazda Rep Power: 411	1500 seems like a knot and a half for a simple motor replacement, especially just a sohc vtec look in the local yards, you should be able to find one for 500 max, and you can prob get someone to put it in for 500 max... if it were my car i wouldn't pay over 600 for motor and install... you have pics of this leak? sounds odd between and head and block surfaces did it overheat? was the car on fire? you might even be able to just mill the head and slap it back on you sure its not the valve cover gasket? __________________ I'll blow a hole in your face then go inside and sleep like a baby.

08-28-2006, 06:42 PM	#7
Silverchild79 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Albany, Oregon Age: 30 Posts: 6,763 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 192	front cover seal? I had to change mine on the S14 last year. If you can clean the engine they sell a dye which shows up under a black light. You just dump it in your oil and drive for two days then use the light to chase the leak. If it's the front cover seal then your engine SHOULD BE fine __________________ Did I just say something interesting or funny? Check out my blog for more... http://campassmore.wordpress.com/

08-28-2006, 06:55 PM	#9
Airjockie Watanabe Whore!!! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Meriden, CT, USA Age: 37 Posts: 10,146 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: datsuns & Subarus Rep Power: 217	first, degrease the engine, squirt some simple green everywhere and hose it off..advoid getting water on the dizzy and alt. then run the car around the block for 5 minutes and see if you have the leak visable, and we'll go from there. Changing an engine due to an oil leak is overkill.... Second, jack the car and put a socket on all the oilpan bolts. 3rd...replace the valce cover gasket...$10-20 at autozone, and while you have the valve cover off, adjust the valves if your mechanically inclined... you might get a little more compression and the car will run better after a good tweeking...and replace the spark plugs and wires...since the prices for those parts are cheap nowdays, it never hurts to throw a new set in once in a while. 4th, when you have the valcover off, take a look at the camshaft seal, wipe any excess oil from the are with a lint free cloth doused with rubbing alcohol and apply a bead of silicone around the seal, then use a wet finger and smooth out the bead and to get it to smear around good.the more it smear;s, the better the bond. 5th, just drive the car till it dies...then change the engine and drive for another 50-100K miles...if the oil leak is bad enough, keep a quart in the trunk, and decent sized cardboard and park over the cardboard if you care about the driveway. 6th...if it ain't leaking, then it's out of oil....add a quart. hehe And now I don't feel old anymore...if your daughter is driving, then that means your at least 35+ years old.... __________________


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08-28-2006, 04:58 PM	#4
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	can you post a pic of the leak?

08-28-2006, 06:28 PM	#5
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	No I cannot take a picture of the leak. It is below the valve cover and above the oil pan. It is difficult to see exactly where it is coming from because the engine is so close to the fender, but there seems to be a cover in front of the cam and it seems to be below (closer to the ground) that also, (maybe a crank seal?). I removed some skirting under the radiator to try to see better and I didn't see anything obvious. No, the car was not overheated and it did not catch fire either.

08-28-2006, 06:29 PM	#6
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Would any of you guys just replace the head and see what happens or would you go for the engine?

08-28-2006, 06:54 PM	#8
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	I will gunk down the motor tomorrow and pull the left front wheel and see if I see anything. I didn't know there was a front cover seal. The garage told me there was a hole in the cover incase the water pump leaked you would see it. Maybe I need to go to another garage that is Honda friendly.

08-28-2006, 07:27 PM	#11
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Airjockie, I am sure I will see the leak after 5 minutes, (probably after 2). I ran the car up on ramps this afternoon and checked all the oil pan bolts, got just a touch from most of them. Replacing the valve cover gasket is something I will do tomorrow but the cam seal was replaced a couple of weeks ago when the timing belt was done, but I will do as you said. When you check the valve adjustment on these engines is it done hot or cold? Come to think of it, there was no leak before the timing belt replacment. hhhhmmmmm......

08-28-2006, 07:29 PM	#12
Silverchild79 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Albany, Oregon Age: 30 Posts: 6,763 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 192	cold, according to my old mechinic, 97 degress or less, also there should be some friction/resistance when inserting or removing the feeler gauge(after adjustment).. like 25in lbs, but nothing crazy __________________ Did I just say something interesting or funny? Check out my blog for more... http://campassmore.wordpress.com/ Last edited by Silverchild79; 08-28-2006 at 08:04 PM.

08-28-2006, 11:30 PM	#15
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	"left" wheel meaning driver side? oh, and moving this to a tech forum

08-29-2006, 08:20 AM	#16
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Yes driver side. Also thank you for not berating me for posting in the wrong forum. I started out with just wanting to say hi like the forum stated for me to do the first time.

09-01-2006, 08:59 AM	#19
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Just an update.... I will be out of town for the weekend so I am taking the car to 'The Jap Shop' to have them look at it when I come back. They too feel something is wrong from the timing belt change. I explained my situation with the car and they told me I can stand with them while they work on the car to see what the problem is. I will post what they find next week. Thank you for all the replies to this point. Alan

09-04-2006, 06:02 PM	#20
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Is it possible there could be a small leak where the power steering pump bracket bolts to the head? I could have sworn there was something bubbling from where the bracket meets the head. I was able to get about an eighth of a turn on the bolt then I sprayed 409 or something like that on it and it seems to have quit bubbling. I still think the majority of the leak is coming from either directly below the crank or immediately behind it (firewall side) of the motor. I will find out more Wed morning when it hits the shop. Another quick question...where is the oil filter located? Alan (97 EX) Can't quite get under the car to see it. Last edited by Alans97; 09-04-2006 at 08:12 PM. Reason: Added text

09-04-2006, 08:26 PM	#21
pissedoffsol RETIRED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Retirement Home Age: 29 Posts: 49,951 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: Electric Scooter Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 531	the bolt holes to the pwr steering bracket do not puncture into the "wet" part of the block, so its not probable.

09-06-2006, 10:47 PM	#23
Alans97 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boca Raton,Florida Age: 53 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: Harley Electra Glide Rep Power: 7	Oil leak is fixed!!! Turns out the mechanic who did the timing belt used non-Honda cam and crank seals and they were the problem. The Jap Shop in Boca Raton,Fl took the thing apart and found the problem and used Honda seals and now there is no leak. We are going to change the oil pan gasket next week just for good measure. Thank you for all your responses. Alan

09-07-2006, 09:48 PM	#24
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth, TX Age: 32 Posts: 24,525 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 291	I've been following this thread since you started it, but never posted.. I'm glad that you're getting the information you're looking for on our site. Keep up the good work on the car! __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

09-18-2006, 08:37 PM	#25
97hatch ? Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anderson IN Age: 26 Posts: 1,589 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: i have 14 cars i drive my sohc turbo ef Rep Power: 34	as almost every one on here will tell you if you want to keep honda reliablty only use OEM parts for repairs __________________ SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

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