Extreme Haiti Bash

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95b16coupe

Well-Known Member
this guy said probably what a lot of people are thinking. but should he have? was he wrong in saying so?

Former NBAer criticizes Haitian relief efforts - NBA News - FOX Sports on MSN

Paul Shirley has probably become public enemy No. 1 in Haiti and elsewhere.

The former NBA player posted a long column online in response to the earthquake disaster in Haiti in which he criticized Haitian citizens and said he won't donate to relief efforts.

"I haven’t donated to the Haitian relief effort for the same reason that I don't give money to homeless men on the street," he wrote. "Based on past experiences, I don't think the guy with the sign that reads 'Need You're Help' is going to do anything constructive with the dollar I might give him. If I use history as my guide, I don't think the people of Haiti will do much with my money either."

And he didn't stop there, even writing a letter to the people of Haiti.

"Dear Haitians," he wrote, "First of all, kudos on developing the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Your commitment to human rights, infrastructure, and birth control should be applauded.

"As we prepare to assist you in this difficult time, a polite request: If it’s possible, could you not re-build your island home in the image of its predecessor? Could you not resort to the creation of flimsy shanty- and shack-towns? And could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?"

He also asked what's being done to prevent this tragedy from happening again, using New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina as an example.

"We did the same after Hurricane Katrina," he said. "We were quick to vilify humans who were too slow to respond to the needs of victims, forgetting that the victims had built and maintained a major city below sea level in a known target zone for hurricanes. Our response: Make the same mistake again. Rebuild a doomed city, putting aside logic as we did."

Shirley has been dropped as a freelance writer for ESPN for his comments on Haiti.
 
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I completely agree with that freelance writer.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with everything he said, and if he would have stopped after the first paragraph he would have been fine.
 
im quoting up his entire post here... because it was a pain in the ass to get to it (guessing the site is getting hammered)

if you rebuild it, they will come,


by paul shirley



I do not know if what I’m about to write makes me a monster. I do know that it makes me a part of a miniscule minority, if Internet trends and news stories of the past weeks are any guide.

“It”, is this:

I haven’t donated a cent to the Haitian relief effort. And I probably will not.

I haven’t donated to the Haitian relief effort for the same reason that I don’t give money to homeless men on the street. Based on past experiences, I don’t think the guy with the sign that reads “Need You’re Help” is going to do anything constructive with the dollar I might give him. If I use history as my guide, I don’t think the people of Haiti will do much with my money either.

In this belief I am, evidently, alone. It seems that everyone has jumped on the “Save Haiti” bandwagon. To question the impulse to donate, then, will probably be viewed as analogous with rooting for Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or the Spice Girls.

My wariness has much to do with the fact that the sympathy deployed to Haiti has been done so unconditionally. Very few have said, written, or even intimated the slightest admonishment of Haiti, the country, for putting itself into a position where so many would be killed by an earthquake.

I can’t help but wonder why questions have not been raised in the face of this outpouring of support. Questions like this one:

Shouldn’t much of the responsibility for the disaster lie with the victims of that disaster?

Before the reader reaches for his or her blood pressure medication, he should allow me to explain. I don’t mean in any way that the Haitians deserved their collective fate. And I understand that it is difficult to plan for the aftermath of an earthquake. However, it is not outside the realm of imagination to think that the citizens of a country might be able to: A) avoid putting themselves into a situation that might result in such catastrophic loss of life. And B) provide for their own aid, in the event of such a catastrophe.

Imagine that I’m a caveman. Imagine that I’ve chosen to build my house out of balsa wood, and that I’m building it next to a roaring river because I’ve decided it will make harvesting fish that much easier. Then, imagine that my hut is destroyed by a flood.

Imagining what would happen next is easier than imagining me carrying a caveman’s club. If I were lucky enough to survive the roaring waters that took my hut, my tribesmen would say, “Building next to the river was pretty dumb, wasn’t it?.” Or, if I weren’t so lucky, they’d say, “At least we don’t have to worry about that moron anymore.”

Sure, you think, but those are cavemen. We’re more civilized now – we help each other, even when we make mistakes.

True enough. But what about when people repeat their mistakes? And what about when they do things that obviously act against their own self-interests?

In the case of mistakes and warnings as applied to Haiti, I don’t mean to indict those who ignored actual warnings against earthquakes, of which there were many before the recent one. Although it would have been prudent to pay heed to those, I suppose.

Instead, I’m referring to the circumstances in which people lived. While the earthquake was, obviously, unavoidable, the way in which many of the people of Haiti lived was not. Regrettably, some Haitians would have died regardless of the conditions in that country. But the fact that so many people lived in such abject poverty exacerbated the extent of the crisis.

How could humans do this to themselves? And what’s being done to stop it from happening again?

After the tsunami of 2004, the citizens of the world wailed and donated and volunteered for cleanup, rarely asking the important – and, I think, obvious – question: What were all those people doing there in the first place? Just as important: If they move back to a place near the ocean that had just been destroyed by a giant wave, shouldn’t our instinct be to say, “Go ahead if you want, but you’re on your own now.”?

We did the same after Hurricane Katrina. We were quick to vilify humans who were too slow to respond to the needs of victims, forgetting that the victims had built and maintained a major city below sea level in a known target zone for hurricanes. Our response: Make the same mistake again. Rebuild a doomed city, putting aside logic as we did.

And now, faced with a similar situation, it seems likely that we will do the same.

Shouldn’t there be some discourse on how the millions of dollars that are being poured into Haiti will be spent? And at least a slight reprimand for the conditions prior to the earthquake? Some kind of inquisition? Something like this?:

Dear Haitians –

First of all, kudos on developing the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Your commitment to human rights, infrastructure, and birth control should be applauded.

As we prepare to assist you in this difficult time, a polite request: If it’s possible, could you not re-build your island home in the image of its predecessor? Could you not resort to the creation of flimsy shanty- and shack-towns? And could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?

Sincerely,

The Rest of the World

It shouldn’t be outlandish to hope that we might stop short of the reactionary word that is so often flung about after natural (and unnatural) disasters. That word: Rebuild. Thus, the tired, knee-jerk cycle of aid/assist/rebuild would be replaced by a new one: Aid/assist/let’s-stop-and-think-before-we-screw-this-up-again.

If forced to do so through logic-colored glasses, no one would look at Haiti and think, “You know what? It was a great idea to put 10 million people on half of an island. The place is routinely battered by hurricanes (in 2008, $900 million was lost/spent on recovery from them), it holds the aforementioned title of poorest nation in the Western hemisphere, and it happens to sit on a tectonic fault line.”

If it were apparent that Haiti would likely rebuild in an earthquake-resistant way, and if a cure could be found for hurricane abuse of island nations, then maybe one could imagine putting a sustained effort into rebuilding the place. But that would only be feasible if the country had shown any ability to manage its affairs in the past, which it has not done.

I can tell, based on my own reaction to that last sentence, that it might strike a nerve. The reader might be tempted to think, “We can’t blame the people of Haiti for their problems. Surely it’s someone else’s fault.” A similar sentiment can be found in this quote, from article on the geology behind the quake:

“Unfortunately, [Haiti]’s government was not in a position to really do much to prepare for the inevitable large earthquake, leaving tens of thousands to suffer the consequences.”

The sentiment expressed is one of outrage at the government. But, ultimately, the people in a country have control over their government. One could argue that in totalitarian regimes, they do not have much control, but in the end, it is their government. And therefore, their responsibility. If the government is not doing enough for the people, it is the people’s responsibility to change the government. Not the other way around.

Additionally, some responsibility for the individual lies with that individual.

A Haitian woman, days after the earthquake:

“We need so much. Food, clothes, we need everything. I don’t know whose responsibility it is, but they need to give us something soon,” said Sophia Eltime, a mother of two who has been living under a bed sheet with seven members of her extended family. (From an AP report.)

Obviously, a set of circumstances such as the one in which Ms. Eltime was living is a heart-wrenching one. And for that, anyone would be sympathetic. Until she says, “I don’t know whose responsibility it is.” I don’t know whose responsibility it is, either. What I do know is that it is not the responsibility of the outside world to provide help. It’s nice if we do, but it is not a requirement, especially when people choose to influence their own existences negatively, whether by having too many children when they can’t afford them or by failing to recognize that living in a concrete bunker might not be the best way to protect one’s family, whether an earthquake happens or not.

Ms. Eltime’s reaction helps define what is the crux of my problem with the reaction to this and to other humanitarian crises. I recoil at the notion that I’m SUPPOSED to do something. I would like to help, but only if I feel that my assistance is deserved and justified. If I perceive that I am being told to feel a certain way, and if I can point to a pattern of mistakes made in similar situations, I lose interest.

When I was young, the great humanitarian crisis facing our world – as portrayed by the media, anyway – was the starving masses in Africa. The solution found, of course, was to send bag after bag of food to those people, forgetting the long-understood maxim that giving more food to poor people allows them to create more poor people. (Admittedly, it’s a harsh truth.) At the time, my classmates and I, young and naïve as we were, thought we had come up with a better solution. “They should just go somewhere else,” we said. Our teacher grimaced, saying, “It’s not that simple.”

It still isn’t. And I’m not as naïve as I once was – I don’t think the people of Haiti have the option of moving. But I do think that our assistance should be restricted, like it should be in cases of starvation. It simply does not work to give, unconditionally. What might work is to teach. In the case of famine-stricken segments of Africa, teaching meant making people understand that a population of people needs a certain amount of food, and that the creation of that food has to be self-sustaining for the system to work. In the case of earthquake-stricken Haiti, teaching might mean limited help, but help that is accompanied by criticism of the circumstances that made that help necessary.

In the case of the Haitian earthquake, it’s heartening to see people caring about the fates of their fellow men. What is alarming, I think, is the sometimes illogical frenzy toward casting those affected by the earthquake as helpless, innocent souls who were placed on the island of Hispaniola by an invisible force. In the case of some, this analogy might well be accurate; children cannot very well control their destinies. And as far as sympathy goes, much of it should go to those children.

But children are brought into the world by their parents. Those parents have a responsibility – to themselves and to their kids – to provide. They have a responsibility to look around – before an earthquake happens – and say, “I need to improve this situation, because if a catastrophe were to happen, we’d be in bad shape.”

The people of whom I write are adults. Functional, human adults with functional, human adult brains. It is not too much to ask that they behave as such. That they stand up and say, “Yes, we screwed this up the first time. We are forever indebted to you. Now show us how we can do it right. So that, next time, we won’t need your help.”


i absolutely agree with everything he said there
it is a well written opinion piece that i am willing to bet mirrors many peoples feelings completely

i dont think he should be punished for this in any way
 
if that guy was on the board i would rep him.
 
Haiti has and probably always will be a shit hole. Why? Because of the Haitians that live there. Tourists in the Dominican Republic are told to steer clear of Haiti.

Look at the Dominican Republic. They are a travel destination that I can't afford. They bring revenue into their country hand over foot. They export how many baseball players every year?

Name one Haitian resort. Name one Haitian baseball player. It's the same fucking island. You have exactly what the other side of the island has. It's your own damn fault you haven't done shit with it.
 
not related to haiti.....but related to life in general.

I've lived in NM, grew up there, and got a job. And survived.

I've joined the Air Force...worked there, lived and went thru the training program...and went where they wanted me to go...

I've lived in Japan... worked with the AF, then sepperated...and stayed there...still had a job doing things..making money...surviving.... I was 10 miles away from the Kobe earthquake... scared the crap out of me...but I didn't get get a dime for it.

Moved to Florida...got an education, lived there, and survived.

Moved to CT...got a job, and I'm still surviving..... Hell...I make more money than most people I know....and I don't work as hard....



I only donate to the MS society and the humane society..... and I pay my taxes..... I'm pretty sure my $14,000 a year that I pay to my federal tax collector will get some of my money to the lame, jobless, disaster ridden lazy fucks that has no brain cells to fend for themselves.....
 
Wow...I don't really know what to say.

I'm surprised by what people are saying about something that they seems to know so little about.

There is a small bit of truth in Shirley's letter, but his tone makes him basically come off as an arrogant prick. How is the current generantion of Haiti supposed to fix a problem of being poor that has plagued the nation for over 100 years. The average daily wage in Haiti for an adult is $2. Also, Haiti's overpopulation has nothing to do with this disaster and frankly is a world wide problem not just Haiti.

I don't know enough to go into great detail on the subject, but Haiti being poor is a lot more complicated than the people being lazy. What I do know is that Haiti claimed independence from France only after France required Haiti to pay initially 150 million francs, reduced to 90 million francs, as reparations from slave trading. As far as I know that debt is still not entirely paid due to interest.

That alone had massive ramifications on the country. An article in the Times of London said by the year 1900, Haiti was spending 80% of its national budget on repayments. That doesn't leave much left to do things like build the infrastructure of a country.

At that time Haiti's main export was sugar from growing sugar cane, but by the late 1800s and early 1900s the sugar beets began to put a dent in the sugar cane industry because beets could be grown in places other then tropical climates.

Something else thats plagued the nation is that of corrupt politicians who have basically stolen a lot of the countries money over the years to line their own pockets.

In regards to the Dominican Republic...by land size the DR is almost twice the size of Haiti, add to that the fact that Haiti's north and south peninsulas are basically mountain ranges, that drastically reduces the land area for growing crops.
 
Yes its mostly true what he said about Haiti, but it cost him his job. Now who's stupid?

this will give him more publicity than simply writing for ESPN. he will probably make more money now after being known as the "haiti hating nba player" than as "Paul shirley, columnist".
 
I applaud this guy for saying what many of us are thinking, and I agree with him wholeheartedly.

I am sick and tired of hearing about "the plight of Haiti" when there is so much wrong in our own country. Politics loves distractions like this because Americans' need to feel charitable refocuses their attention off of how terribly mismanaged our own country is.
 
How is the current generantion of Haiti supposed to fix a problem of being poor that has plagued the nation for over 100 years.

why is this OUR problem??
but oh yeah we've been giving them tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in aid every year for YEARS... just for being poor
and thats just from the US... that doesnt count all of the aid money they get from other countries.... again, just for being poor


The average daily wage in Haiti for an adult is $2.

and their GDP is about $7 Billion... their cost of living is also SIGNIFICANTLY lower... drawing comparisons to US income levels is pointless and misleading

Also, Haiti's overpopulation has nothing to do with this disaster and frankly is a world wide problem not just Haiti.

i beg to differ... hoards of poor people crowded into poorly built shanty towns with little or no safety standards has a LOT to do with this disaster... and while this scene can be found throughout many "3rd world" countries, i would not say that it is a "world wide problem"


I don't know enough to go into great detail on the subject, but Haiti being poor is a lot more complicated than the people being lazy. What I do know is that Haiti claimed independence from France only after France required Haiti to pay initially 150 million francs, reduced to 90 million francs, as reparations from slave trading. As far as I know that debt is still not entirely paid due to interest.

it was paid off in 1947 (63 years ago)
they were also in line to receive $22Billion from France as reparations for this wrongful and illegal charge.... unfortunately for them, their fucked up corrupt government had an uprising, and the new leaders screwed the whole deal up by renouncing Haiti's claims for the restitution/reparations money...
once again... not OUR problem... pretty much France and Haiti's problem


That alone had massive ramifications on the country. An article in the Times of London said by the year 1900, Haiti was spending 80% of its national budget on repayments. That doesn't leave much left to do things like build the infrastructure of a country.


see above section
blah blah blah 63 years
blah blah blah supposed to get $22Billion but they fucked it up
blah blah blah not our problem


At that time Haiti's main export was sugar from growing sugar cane, but by the late 1800s and early 1900s the sugar beets began to put a dent in the sugar cane industry because beets could be grown in places other then tropical climates.

so in 100 years they have not been able to figure out another form of income? thats just irresponsible... fishing, tourism, tobacco, textiles, drugs... but why bother reinventing yourself as a country when people will just give you money... the whole damn country is on global welfare


Something else thats plagued the nation is that of corrupt politicians who have basically stolen a lot of the countries money over the years to line their own pockets.

corrupt politicians is not a new or exclusive concept... how you deal with them determines whether or not you will live under their boot heel or not
dont like the government?? get rid of them... vote them out or rise up against them...
once again not our problem


In regards to the Dominican Republic...by land size the DR is almost twice the size of Haiti, add to that the fact that Haiti's north and south peninsulas are basically mountain ranges, that drastically reduces the land area for growing crops.

crops are not the only way to make a living in the Caribbean... if they cleaned up their act they could be a tourist trap and make fucking BANK... i already went into this so im not going to bother saying much more
 
Rough National Debt per capita:

Haiti - $463
USA - $40,000



They are in better shape than WE are.....
 
I've said it from day one, for their government this is the BEST THING to ever happen to Haiti.

I'm very sad for what happened to the people, they were born there and have no choice. With that being said, if the people running the country ever did anything right, they would have slowly moved up over the last 100 years but no, they're very poor and have very few things if anything at all setup in case of a disaster like what just happened.

Linh was born in Vietnam and every few weeks we receive stuff in the mail to donate to Vietnam to help the poor people, if anyone doesn't know, Vietnam is a pretty poor country run by a very screwed up government. Linh told me to throw them out and never ever donate to them, why? because anything that gets sent over there is robbed from the people by the government and used by the rich.

How much money is getting pumped into Haiti? How much of that money will be seen on a per person level? Will the people who are hurt and in need see 5% of the total items donated? not just money but shirts, shoes, pants. Anything.....

chances are....


Edit, Just wanted to say that if anyone wants to donate, make sure its with redcross, people who are going over there with supplies and giving it directly to people are helping temporally until they leave. Once outside people stop overseeing things first hand, it will all go to chit.
 
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I agree with Jeffie, and I think that is my big thing with my previous post, without all the other information. I feel sorry for the people of Haiti born there with no way of getting out. The government has been corrupt for a long time, Haiti has had several Coups in their history. But the U.S. government is corrupt as well, why should this stop us from trying to help them if we can do so without giving a bunch of money to the government.

You can't just blame them and say "Not my problem"...that's like watching a car accident and then just walking away without seeing if people are alright.

The U.S. aid figures have been released which show that for each dollar the U.S. uses less than $.01 will go to the government. I hope that is the same for all aid from this disaster so the government gets minimal funds.
 
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