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drbelanger73

drbelanger73

Beer is good for you.
Before I begin, I broke the cardinal rule of copy your post before you preview it. Now I have to write this all again...

I am going to post this here in the members lounge since this is still in the theoretical stage. If B is gonna slap my pee pee and move it elsewhere so be it, I've been away a while so my posting rule memory has decayed accordingly...

Summary: I want to run my Acura down the salt flats at Bonneville. Why? Because my time and money are valuable to me and I want the opportunity to hop on the gas without being arrested and losing my car whilst having some sort of proof to take home at the end of the day. Also, because it is fun... They have 130, 150, and the coveted 200mph club categories. Here is a link for the former two:

130 - 150 club

I suggest you view it for the technical data of the 130 and 150 clubs, if only to note that "No riding lawnmowers." is actually a stipulation in the 130 category. Naturally, I am inclined to wonder if they ARE allowed at 150 and 200, but I digress...

My limitations:

1: Silly as it may seem, I don't see the point of owning a car that sits in the garage. I want to be able to drive around town with my lap times in my glove box. That said, I want to be able to listen to my music as I blast down the salt flats. Preferably Jesus Built My Hotrod by Ministry, but I am open to suggestions. I only weigh about 135lbs soaking wet, so I can safely add about 45lbs of stereo gear to reach the 180 mark. I have to be able to hear my music through the helmet...

2: Factory air bags must be retained in any vehical built after 1989, thus the factory dash and steering wheel must be left in place. Door panels make it easier to mount door speakers, so those too should remain. OEM belt restraints must also be left onboard, if only as decoration. 1994 vintage vehicals need not pass emissions in the state of MA, though they must retain a catalytic converter.

3: Chassis should be a 1994 DC2 Integra, because this is what I own. That said, if a viable option can be presented, I am not above aquiring a new chassis to build. It is likely that I will obtain a second, bare bones, DC2 specifically for this project. Engine options are open, though they should be scaleable. Building a B20 Frankie and then swaping for a K series later is going to break my budget. One engine, with increasing refinement is preferable. I have a spare B18 head so I am inclined to lean towards a B series application.

4: Given the streetable requirement, power steering is nice and I would like to retain it. Air conditioning I suppose I could be foreced to forbear, though grudgingly...

5: If your reply is go buy Car X, you are welcome to make out a check payable to Derek R Belanger for the balance, which I will happily accept...

Any thoughts?
 
Turbocharge the B18C. You'll make more than enough power to smash through 130mph without any problems.
 
panel under the car to the rear bumper, fold in mirrors, and possibly damming the front bumper should help with aerodynamics.
 
Calesta said:
Turbocharge the B18C. You'll make more than enough power to smash through 130mph without any problems.
Click to expand...

I am often torn between a supercharger and a turbo charger. Supercharger will fill in some of the low end torque issues nicely, but a turbo seems to be the high end choice.

When you say turbo, do you mean high comp/low boost, med/med, or low comp/high boost?

Has anyone ever built a turbo/supercharged B18? Jackson racing makes a nice supercharger kit. I'm just not sure how the math works out. I would think six pounds of boost off a SC and another 6 off a turbo would make 12, but I majored in English, so ya...
 
K2e2vin said:
panel under the car to the rear bumper, fold in mirrors, and possibly damming the front bumper should help with aerodynamics.
Click to expand...

I had wondered how high off the salt I needed to be. I believe there is a 1-2 inch restriction when it comes to lowering a vehical for the street in MA. I suppose that would mean I would have to purchase adjustable coilovers...
 
drbelanger73 said:
I am often torn between a supercharger and a turbo charger. Supercharger will fill in some of the low end torque issues nicely, but a turbo seems to be the high end choice.

When you say turbo, do you mean high comp/low boost, med/med, or low comp/high boost?

Has anyone ever built a turbo/supercharged B18? Jackson racing makes a nice supercharger kit. I'm just not sure how the math works out. I would think six pounds of boost off a SC and another 6 off a turbo would make 12, but I majored in English, so ya...
Click to expand...

It all depends on the sizing of the turbocharger- you can go with a small one that will behave just like a supercharger, or you can go with a larger one that will leave you with a bit of a hole in the bottom end in terms of torque but really come on strong up top for tons of higher revving power. It's all up to you on the sizing.

For a 130mph goal with a 2 mile run to get to the speed range, I really don't think you need to do anything inside the engine before you boost. It's not that hard to get to.
 
Calesta said:
It all depends on the sizing of the turbocharger- you can go with a small one that will behave just like a supercharger, or you can go with a larger one that will leave you with a bit of a hole in the bottom end in terms of torque but really come on strong up top for tons of higher revving power. It's all up to you on the sizing.

For a 130mph goal with a 2 mile run to get to the speed range, I really don't think you need to do anything inside the engine before you boost. It's not that hard to get to.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but the next year 150 would be the goal, and then 200...
 
BodyDroppedNikes said:
whats your budget should be the real question to ask first?
Click to expand...

True. Being that I fnally have my GS-R to drive, I think the engine would be the next concern. I have a spare B18C1 head, so aquiring a B20 bottom I think would be easier than attempting to land a whole B18C1. This way I could aquire a GS-R frame without an engine for a lot less money. The real thing for me would be one that was fairly rust free and hadn't had the quarterpannels jacked up. I'm going to have to learn how to fabricate metal and weld at some point, but I would rather practice in school than on the stuff I just aquired...

Jackson Racing's supercharger would be a minumum of 2500, turbo chargers probably more. A realistic budget would probably be 10,000, at least in the 130 range. 7500 I think would be the bare minumum.

As for building turbo systems, I must stress again that my training is as a technician. If anyone wants to mount a radio or an air search radar on their Honda, I'm your man. The splices in my stereo install will probably outlast the damn car. My knowledge of engines is theoretical. I've been far enough down in one to replace a timing chain and a head gasket, but turbo math makes me cringe; hell math in general makes me cringe. Intsalling the kit would not be an issue, selecting the constituants thereof woud be the challenge.

That said, I would be tempted to invest in Edelbrock's turbo charger system. The bolt on stock engine version wouldl likely serve the purpose for the 130 target and the system is readily scaleable; with support from Edelbrock. Throw in a Hondata and some real flexibility is availalbe, limited only by the enging internals.

All in all, what really makes me cringe is the thought of opening up my transmission case and installing a different final gear. That I have never done and the potential for massive exploratory destruction is considerable...

I'm probably rambling, just thinking out loud...
 
drbelanger73 said:
Agreed, but the next year 150 would be the goal, and then 200...
Click to expand...

Ah, then start big. :) Go for top end power, then go for taller gears (LS transmission from non-VTEC Integra) to support your high speed goals. Upgrade tire diameter to hit 200mph. I honestly wouldn't want to spend the money on a kit just to upgrade later- you might need a new manifold, and you would definitely have to upgrade the expensive bits like the turbocharger and the intercooler. You'd basically be building another complete turbo system from scratch when it came time to upgrade the Edelbrock.
 
IMO, your motor is the least to worry about at this point. You can break 130 mph fairly fast with a stock B18c1 and some nitrous.

I would focus more on getting a good suspension setup. Add some positive caster up front to give you more control over your vehicle. Get some light wheels and good tires. Find some wheels that are wide enough to give you good traction but not so wide that they will hinder your aerodynamics too much. And of course, tires rated for the proper speed.
 
B16RacerN2NR said:
IMO, your motor is the least to worry about at this point. You can break 130 mph fairly fast with a stock B18c1 and some nitrous.

I would focus more on getting a good suspension setup. Add some positive caster up front to give you more control over your vehicle. Get some light wheels and good tires. Find some wheels that are wide enough to give you good traction but not so wide that they will hinder your aerodynamics too much. And of course, tires rated for the proper speed.
Click to expand...

Nitrous is specifically disallowed, unfortunately. Tires are limited to no more than 10" unless they came OEM. "Demonstrable proof" of tires rated for speed are required as well. I would like to have a set of Gram Lites, but they are gonna take a chunk out of the budget.

As far as my suspension, my daily driven Integra only went as far as a set of Eibach springs. I read through some web links to get an idea of what positive caster is. How would this be accomplished exactly? Since I am on the topic, what do you think about adjustable coilovers?
 
Calesta said:
Ah, then start big. :) Go for top end power, then go for taller gears (LS transmission from non-VTEC Integra) to support your high speed goals. Upgrade tire diameter to hit 200mph. I honestly wouldn't want to spend the money on a kit just to upgrade later- you might need a new manifold, and you would definitely have to upgrade the expensive bits like the turbocharger and the intercooler. You'd basically be building another complete turbo system from scratch when it came time to upgrade the Edelbrock.
Click to expand...

Before I get started, how is the kid? I think the last time I was really on the forums you had just had one. That or I'm just old and confused...

Pursuant to starting big, what about the option of a B20 Frankie? There is the old expression that there is no substitution for displacement. Doesn't that bottom end get the 1.8 up to a 2.2? I also have the idea in my head it is diffucult to bore the B18 block as there is not a lot of material to work with.

Just how horrible is rebuilding a transmission anyway? Any LS tranny I would get from the junk yard is likely to be a hurtin unit. What about the final gear from the JDM B18 tranny, I had it in my mind that that was the longest final gear.
 
130 isn't really a problem. any bolt on kit will get you there
150 can be done... will need a lot more juice. might be tight in 2 miles.
200, is night and day. keep in mind, the corvette zr1 that Clarkson ran did 170. and he has 625 horsepower in a chassis FAR more areo dynamic than an integra.
 
drbelanger73 said:
Before I get started, how is the kid? I think the last time I was really on the forums you had just had one. That or I'm just old and confused...
Click to expand...

Yup, just had a kid. He's 2.5 now, and an absolute terror. I'm SO glad he's back in daycare right now. Ugh.

drbelanger73 said:
Pursuant to starting big, what about the option of a B20 Frankie? There is the old expression that there is no substitution for displacement. Doesn't that bottom end get the 1.8 up to a 2.2? I also have the idea in my head it is diffucult to bore the B18 block as there is not a lot of material to work with.
Click to expand...

You can run a resleeved bottom end to get your bore to 86mm and have a total displacement right under 2.2L, but you'll have so little room in between the cylinders that your head gasket will probably not hold any boost. If you're going to boost the engine, stay with the 84mm bore. Just for reference, here's my B18C block with an 85.5mm bore:

block_screwed_med_cyl2_04.jpg


I'd only run all motor with the spacing between the cylinders that tight. Imagine taking another 1mm from between the pistons- really not much left.

drbelanger73 said:
Just how horrible is rebuilding a transmission anyway? Any LS tranny I would get from the junk yard is likely to be a hurtin unit. What about the final gear from the JDM B18 tranny, I had it in my mind that that was the longest final gear.
Click to expand...

Not that bad- just a TON of parts to keep track of, and if you play with the differential, you might want to get a ton of shims to make sure everything lines back up when you're done. Read the service manual about reassembly procedures a good number of times before you dig in.

B said:
130 isn't really a problem. any bolt on kit will get you there
150 can be done... will need a lot more juice. might be tight in 2 miles.
200, is night and day. keep in mind, the corvette zr1 that Clarkson ran did 170. and he has 625 horsepower in a chassis FAR more areo dynamic than an integra.
Click to expand...

Yup. 130mph is a piece of cake. You don't need much for 150mph either- 190whp/160lbft got me there in a hurry. I'm pretty sure I was there in less than 2 miles since I was well over 100 in just a quarter mile and it only took another 20 seconds-ish to get to 150, but I was running a pretty shortly geared transmission and humming along at 8000rpm in 5th gear.

A bolt-on turbo kit with longer gears will generate a good bit more torque (well over 200lbft at 300hp+), so you should be able to top 150 easily within 2 miles and still not be running up against your redline as quickly.

200 is another story- just remember that to increase speed/amplitude by a factor of two, you have to increase power ten-fold. Accelerating up to 200mph will take at least 10 times as much power as accelerating up to 100mph. Quick dirty math (and I probably did it wrong, don't want to do all the math the right way so I took a guess) puts your power requirement around 400whp assuming you need exactly 190whp to get to 150mph. Then you still have to take into account aerodynamics, friction, tires blowing up etc... so it will probably be more.
 
Focus on keeping everything cool. It seems like everyone blows up their high strung build during long, high rpm pulls. Exactly what you are doing. Heat causes detonation. S/C would be out of the question as the eaton blower generates lots of heat. Make sure the cooling system is up to the task (thicker radiator), and get a good sized intercooler for the turbo setup. I would think you could sacrifice a little spooling time for more heat transfer. Also investigate water or meth injection.
 
Another key factor is the salt flats themselves... its NOT hard pack pavement. it's like driving on marbles. it has a ton more rolling resistance than smooth pavement and offers a ton less traction. Accelerating to 100 with a high powered car will be a challenge.... basically lighting up 1,2,3,4 like they are all first gear, and thus wasting acceleration time and distance. It might take you a full mile to do what you can do in the 1/4 on pavement.

Traction
 
Calesta said:
Just for reference, here's my B18C block with an 85.5mm bore:

block_screwed_med_cyl2_04.jpg


I'd only run all motor with the spacing between the cylinders that tight. Imagine taking another 1mm from between the pistons- really not much left.
Click to expand...

Wow, that really isn't much space at all. I am to assume you run all motor then?

I seem to infer that the B20 block might be a safer option under boost then? I'm back in Boston atm, so I can't look at my reference material...
 
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