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D16z6
This is a discussion on D16z6 in the HYBRID -> EG-EK / DC forum
HondaMoCo lol...
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This is a discussion on D16z6 in the HYBRID -> EG-EK / DC forum
HondaMoCo lol...
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01-08-2003, 03:01 PM
| #51 |
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Posts: 963
|   HondaMoCo lol |
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01-09-2003, 12:16 AM
| #52 |
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Posts: 322
| V-AFC (vtec air fuel controller) is a small device that lets you control your air fuel ratio in 500 rpm increments by +/- 50%, distorted is correct in the stand alone system, that would definately be your best option. Buuuuut they are a little on the pricey side Distorted- Yea, i hear the Z6 Gaskets are pretty strong, im glad to hear that you are doing good with it, i was just exagerating with the 30lbs of boost statement, but i think ya caught that one  , i totally agree with you that it is not completely neccesary that the block must be sleeved, i just highly recommend it. Ive just blown enough motors to prefer to go the full way when building them you know. If you havnt seen it allready, Summit sells a stackable Gasket kit, made by i think "Mr Gasket Company", it looks kinda cool, it caught my eye.Gary |
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01-09-2003, 01:38 AM
| #53 |
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Posts: 4,571
| Do any of you know what vtec is or how it works? Before you state how great it is first know how it works, it is a higher lift longer duration lobe on the intake cam and more overlap on some exhaust cams depending on year of engine etc. You get the same effect from new cams for the d thats right your new are like driving in vtec all the time if you dont mind the rough idle it works just fine the d is a great engine the 89 tegra cam in a doch form not the zc but just as good. Rods can be purchased from eagle as well as a lot of other manufactures phone theme up and the will have them they just dont list because there not as popular as the jump on the band wagon b series builders. The sleeves are just fine for 20 psi of boost the rods will go long before the sleeves ever do and yes the d is an open deck aluminum block. The best solution for you low budgeters is to get your rods, pistons and knuckles Cryogenic tempered this is a process that can increases the strength of stock materials and durability buy up to 300% this process is very reasonable in price and only takes two weeks turn around time. onecyro The d will work just fine but the bottom line is an 11 sec car is not very street able you need slicks and usually the exhaust is to loud to meet local regs. A turbo and the cryo process will set you back less than 500 bucks if you shop around and do the work your self the cryo will set you back less than 100 bucks so that leaves 400 for turbo parts if you go to the local bone yard you can find all the needed parts for that. |
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01-09-2003, 03:14 AM
| #54 | |
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01-09-2003, 11:02 AM
| #55 |
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Posts: 322
| Vtec, of course we know what Vtec is, it stands for Very Tempermental Engine Control, doesnt it work by shooting a 50 shot of nos in your cylinders when you hit 5000 rpms or something like that. The D16A1, and the ZC blow, the design of the motor is very weak Rods dont go from Boost, they go from detonation, and idiots that dont tune there cars, cylinders and head gaskets go from Boost cryogenic freezing is for suckers, i have never heard any succesfull stories with it out of all the people i have know to go with it. I got an Idea, why dont you go out and actuall try and build some motors, before you come in here and question everyones intellegence. ohh yea before i forget, Vtec is an oil operated system in which as the RPM band gets higher the oil pressure builds up and is and blocked by the vtec solenoid, when the designated RPM is hit the ecu sends a 12V + source to the vtec solenoid releasing the oil in which then travels through the cam cap crown down into the rocker arm assembly which in turn locks up the two rocker arm assemblies and alowing the center rocker arm which is then powered by the Vtec lobe to take over untill the rpms drop(Shift Gears)and the 12v + source is cut off from the solenoid. Gary |
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01-09-2003, 11:06 AM
| #56 | |
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01-09-2003, 11:37 AM
| #57 | |
Posts: 5,453
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2. There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim that freezing you rods/pistons will do anything expect make them really really cold for an hour or two before you install them. Your link is bunk. | |
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01-09-2003, 12:08 PM
| #58 |
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Posts: 53
| LMAO!!!!!!!!!this is just too good. It is funny watching you guys rip people a new asshole. |
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01-09-2003, 12:17 PM
| #59 |
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Posts: 84
| The idea of freezing your rods for strength seems like an easy way out. HondaMotorCo and evreyone else who says you should build your engine is right. I completely agree, I'm building my engine - excluding the sleves - and think there is no other safe or smart way to go about it. As for an 11's car, definetly slicks...the 12.6 ran by our car was on slicks(though it did have full interior, kinda badass). As for that gasket, I like the sound of it. Ill check it out little later when i get back on the boards. Im just skeptical from watching expensive "High performance" headgaskets blow while the stock one still out performs em, but hey...could just be chance. Good 'ol Vtec HondaMotorCo Posted on Jan 9 2003, 12:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vtec, of course we know what Vtec is, it stands for Very Tempermental Engine Control, doesnt it work by shooting a 50 shot of nos in your cylinders when you hit 5000 rpms or something like that. Honestly, i think all that needed to be said in this post was said right in that quote. Ah well, i need to go buy some tire flies and a Turbo Noise simulator(yes they exist, check summit). Rob
__________________ SOHC turbo. Does the body good. |
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01-09-2003, 04:02 PM
| #60 |
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Posts: 4,571
| Well now if it is for suckers why is it used buy multi million dollar Winston cup teams? Are they stupid? Maybe be if you had the most basic knowledge of chem. you would understand how it works!! The dont just freeze the parts the are first heated then frozen Its not freezing that makes a difference it is the temp drop that causes a difference NHRA Allen Johnson - Pro Stock Brian Hough - Alcohol Funny 1997 Division 6 Winner Kurt Johnson - Pro Stock Hyland Racing - Alcohol Funny Rhonda Hartman - Top Fuel Paul Romine - Top Fuel Larry Morgan - Pro Stock Tom Martino - Pro Stock Bruce Allen - Pro Stock Reher-Morrison Racing Engines Danny Coffman - Pro Stock CTS Racing - Pro Stock Bike Larry Cambron - Pro Stock NASCAR BUSH Quarterly Motorsports Pease Motorsports Sheba Racing Mystic River Racing NHRA NASCAR - Busch NASCAR - Winston Cup Formula One APBA Boat Racing Formula Atlantic Hooter's Cup Late Model Stock Car Jet Ski CART Indy Snowmobile Monster Truck WoO IDBA KART USRRC Go Karting Legends AMA SCCA ARCA Formula Ford 2000 AMA Motocross Super Bikes ARL ATV ProStar IHRA PCA IMSA All these sports use it So before you talk about engine building first stop to think has he and yes I have I have built wankel and Hondas and mopars since I could hold an fn wrench The D series have a smaller bottom end that is weaker but with one cyro it can be made to handle the boost he is talking about. Cyro is tested and effective I have used it on my 350 and it has lasted over two years in the truck (I thought it would last two days it is driven buy the little sister?). I have a d series block set to run 14 psi and the only mods are a new ecu (Aftermarket for tune ability) and new injectors but I got the engine cyrod first. The link is here try it again One Cyro |
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01-09-2003, 04:43 PM
| #61 | |
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Posts: 5,453
| How about you show us your never ending knowledge of chemistry. I am not a chem major, but the chem that I have taken suggests freezing these parts is not going to increase their strength much, if any, above heat treating alone. That site gives a lot of market hype, but their true info content is 0. They partially quote the National Bureau of Standards in a statement that says heat treating steel helps form a stronger lattice, but nowhere in this quote does the NBS say anything about the benifits of further cooling the heat treated steel. Then the site goes on, and I quote: Quote:
Next you provide a list of teams from their website that "use" this process. What you do not tell us is how many of those teams actually pay for this process and how many get it as part of a sponsorship deal. Anyone running a race team knows that the conpanies that sponsor you give you the cash you need to win. Duh. So if some company comes along and says "We want to sponsor your team as long as you let us do X to your engine parts and you say good things about our product." The team manager then says to himself "We get extra money from a company that wants to do X to our engine parts. I don't konw if it will help, but I know it won't hurt." The answer is, of course, YES. If I was running a race team and some company told me they wanted to dip my pistons in donkey piss before I installed them and I knew it wouldn't hurt anything, I'd let them do what ever they wanted for that sponsor money. Last you claim personal experience. Have you used parts that were only heat treated as opposed to heat treated and then frozen and had the heat treated parts fail where the forzen parts did not? Keep in mind that you cannot say that freezing works better than just heat treating unless you have experienced this more than once with the exact same parts. Otherwise it would be attributed to a mis-cast or other unfortunate error. I want scientific proof, not second reguritation of hyped up market mumbo jumbo. Thank you, please drive through.
__________________ v3sw7+9Chw6ln3pr7Ock4ma9w3TXm3l7GDFi7Ce6+8t4MNb8Oen6g6RAOa26s5MRp6 hackerkey.com | |
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01-09-2003, 04:51 PM
| #62 |
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Posts: 4,571
| The cyro process is a step beyond heat treating the heat treat the parts but rather than stopping at 0 it goes down to -400 So to continue the process further the way heat treating works is not the heating but the cooling that adds strength I have talked to them on the phone the only sponsor a few teams most actually pay for this service they are not the only company that does it |
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01-09-2003, 04:54 PM
| #63 |
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Posts: 5,453
| Great, you can give us the same info that their site does + tell us that some teams pay for it. You still can't prove that it actually does anything over simply heat treating. It doesn't matter how many companies do it, if 18234 different companines made the same crap that APC sells I still wouldn't buy it. |
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01-09-2003, 04:58 PM
| #64 |
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Posts: 4,571
| I have used both heat treated and cyrod parts the cyrod are heat treated at the same time so the are just as strong I have used heat treated parts and non I have only ever broke one rod ( went trough block ) It was a non heat treated part I have never had a problem with a cyrod part but the main thing to remember is tuning if you tune it right it will last |
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01-09-2003, 05:00 PM
| #65 |
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Posts: 4,571
| As it is heated then cooled unused carbon is expended so as to creat an stronger metal |
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01-09-2003, 05:00 PM
| #66 |
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Posts: 5,453
| That was never part of the argument. Tuning is the key to anything making good and reliable power figures. The argument was does freezing parts after heat treating them make a significant difference above just heat treating them to be worth paying for. I say no and your evidence supports that claim. |
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01-09-2003, 05:02 PM
| #67 | |
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01-09-2003, 05:04 PM
| #68 |
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Posts: 4,571
| ok the one cyro proces is fairley cheap almost the same as most heat treating places so what extra are you paying for ? and kes it does scientificaly work it takes like 15 formulas to prove and so much extra work I am not going to start I gave him somthing to try to save him money short of buying new rods it is the cheapest way to add strength. Phone up One Cyro toll free and talk to a tech the will explaine it to you if you still dont believe it works than ok |
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01-09-2003, 05:05 PM
| #69 |
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Posts: 4,571
| the freezing is part of the heat procces the heat treat but rather than quinch with H2O the quinch with liquid nitrogen so to make the procces more effective |
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01-09-2003, 05:10 PM
| #70 | |
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01-09-2003, 05:17 PM
| #71 |
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Posts: 4,571
| If you want I will post tommorrow I have to go get the outa the text books but I am not doing that tonight I have seen enough of them for one day |
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01-09-2003, 05:23 PM
| #72 |
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Posts: 53
| Well I thnik Im Going to stick my pistons in my Freezer befoer i put them in My engine. Might be a little cold though. |
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01-09-2003, 05:25 PM
| #73 |
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Posts: 4,571
| the cyro process is 400 degreees below zero and it is done at the same time as heat treating before you talk why dont you all phone them up and let them explaine ti to you |
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01-09-2003, 05:36 PM
| #74 |
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Posts: 84
| Dear lord. This is not supposed to be an arguement over what works, whats better, etc. Way off topic now, but ill have some fun with it. First of, Cryo treatment would (in theory) work. I have no interest in typing out all the detailed chemistry involved, so ill break it down super simple. heat causes expansion, cold causes contraction. So say you heat up a rod, this would cause extreme expansion based on temperature and the composition of the rod. Now. When you expand the rods composition, "bad" elements have a chance to more towards the surface(i know there are terms for this, but its not key to the arguement). When you cool the rod, it will force these elements into new positions, or it could completely expell them from the rods composition, thats what makes Heat treating/tempering work. Now you say -400 as a temp. -400 what? Celsius, Kelvin, Fahrenheit. Doing things like that to stock rods could be potentially dangerous. Liquid Nitorgen is nothing to take lightly. You could easily shatter a rod in the procces if its seen signifigant use or extreme wear. Those teams that use this process are not doing this to OEM engine parts. Everything - for the most part - is custom made, or preforged for strength. Im trying to knock your idea. It has merit. Im just saying i'd put money on forged products over Cryo treatment any day. Now, cryo treated preforged products, thats probably even better. It seems like a very cost effective way to get results. hcivic.com Posted on Jan 9 2003, 05:07 PM I have a d series block set to run 14 psi and the only mods are a new ecu (Aftermarket for tune ability) and new injectors but I got the engine cyrod first. This worries me. Have you done this before? I can tell you from experience its not going to end up being very reliable unless you have one amazing tuner(maybe this is you) and even then, its risky. we've tried it, and Im about to do it again on my D series setup. You'll need a fuel pump, possibly a rising rate system depending on the injector size you choose and if you want to raise the boost in the future. Thats all ill say right now until I either get flamed or someone posts something else interesting. Good luck on your Cryo'd Engine, Im going to look into it myself to see if it might be worth testing. Rob
__________________ SOHC turbo. Does the body good. |
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01-09-2003, 05:54 PM
| #75 |
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Posts: 4,571
| thank you he asked what he can do for little money and I told him for about 100 they will do all his parts I have had stock prts treated before without a problem you have to inspect to ensure there is no cracks harilines etc first they don't tend to screw up they have benn doing it long enough now that they know what they are doing |
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