Celerity

Nothing I say is PC. And I do suggest doing it. (Destroying the area)

But 20 years isn't enough for those goatfuckers. Today they are like 340 A.D. 20 years ago they were like 320 A.D. Big deal. They never forget shit - they are still upset at the US for that whole Barbery War thing.

igotnothin

well i kind of agreee with ya.....i belive a world war is coming, wether it starts because of korea, egypt....idk but i think one is coming....

you cant just pull out of iraq, it will only have made shit worse, and leave us open for more atacks, but by staying there we only infuriate those who live by the Jehiad. It is a lose lose situation for us right now, and honestly the consequences of both leaving and staying need to be wayed verry carefully. and what ever option comes out with less american casualties needs to be used...in my opinon that is staying in iraq, and continue to capture, kill, and pin down terorist... Like some one said above a war is being fought wether we leave or not...do you really want to bring the fight over here...are soldiers inlist in the military for one reason...to die for there country..that is your job..despite what people think...its not cheap means to get college paid for, and now the majority of the public has been reminded of that. I belive when "and i mean when" we allow the war to come back to american soil we have lost... it will disrupt the "american way" wich is the reason why are soldiers inlist and put there lives on the line...they want to protect the american way, our freedom...

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Sabz5150

I'm quite aware of this. However personally, if I were in a dark room full of jumpy, trigger happy people with shotguns... the last thing I'd do is turn on a flashlight.

Silverchild79

but you aren't you're in your mom's basement taking shots at our government in between shifts at 7-11 J/K

seriously their culture respects power and might, even if we don't agree with their beliefs. A far better metaphor is that we're in a cell block and the other people we're doing time with have mistaken our kindness for weakness (Bin Laden's comments back up my statement of Muslims seeing America as weak)

we should show them the difference

Celerity

How can people say we're in a lose-lose situation ?! American Deaths ? It's safer to be an American in Baghdad than it is in Detroit !

Costs ? Katrina squandered away more money in fixing up 8 blocks of bars and strip clubs than we could accept in Iraq!

Who cares if it benefits the US. Not even taking into account that it keeps Terrorists out of the US. Don't care. We freed a previously oppressed people - and now the only oppression they face are their neighbors and their stupid religion. We gave them that.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran is next. We are watching students walk in Iran for freedom and liberty - And we'll be there to help them too. Then it's on to North Korea, then China. When that's over it's on to Africa, Saudi Arabia, and shit pits like the Philippines.

We do this because the human race can't move forward, in evolution, while these numbnuts religions and idiots still walk around beating women, murdering others and training 8 year old soldiers.

Forget the oil. Forget the land. Forget the religion if you must - Look what we've done, and how important it is that we continue doing it !

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Silverchild79

*Standing Ovation*

there will always be deceivers in DC, because we keep voting them in. Regardless it is never a lost cause to overthrow genocidal dictators and provide the common person worldwide with the opportunity for political freedom. And when we undertake these tasks it is our responsibility as neighbors to ensure we see the job done. Leaving Iraq because we don't want to loose any more soldiers is at this point in time a selfish desire.

klyph

So have we actually come to a concensus that this is a religious war? Have we *gasp* AGREED on something?

Silverchild79

not a religious war because America is mostly Christian and partially everything else. And Israel is Jewish

it's a war based on Ideals

Theirs: Allah should rule the world

Ours: We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL men (that includes those not living in America) are created equal and entitled to certain inalienable rights. Among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness

Celerity

Oh yeah, I've said that for a LONG time. It's a religious war, and we need to look at it that way. A religion has declared war on our way of life - and they want Me, Celerity, dead - and They want Sabz dead. And they want alaskans like Klyph dead.

I'll tell you that most of the muslims out there would make a GREAT addition to the future of mankind. Even the loving and loyalty aspects of Islam are right on the money - but the majority of them are all full of hatred and ignorance.

Silverchild79

that's my point everyone says we need to end the war and leave Iraq but that won't end the war because they are at war with us regardelss of what we do, we must fight, this war was declared on us

Celerity

Well, lemme rephrase. They are shouting for Dhimmitude - which is not necessarily "Kill everyone". They believe that everyone should be Sharia Muslim. Those that aren't serve a great purpose washing dishes, working fields, and getting raped.

I saw Syriana lately - which I meant to tell you folks about. And I did really like that movie. It wasn't anti-american at all. I think it told a great story about how oppressed Muslims are. And I also think, and I may be alone on this, that the movie points out that they are oppressed not because of America, Bush, or anything else that Clooney hates - They are oppressed because of other Muslims.

I always wondered about places like the UAE. It's the richest area on the planet. Yet, they never show who builds this shit, mines the oil fields, or does the manual labor. They import all of their labor from other Muslim countries - make them live in shanty towns in the desert and then kick their ass out when they stop producing. Most of what happens in the Arab / Muslim world is no fault of the US at all - it's just a really shitty way to live.

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lsvtec

You are so, so wrong. The only groups clamoring for Sharia are funded by and based in places that are our allies (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan). With the exception of possibly Syria (I haven't seen solid documentation of Syrian support of al Qaeda or any other Wahabi group).

There really is a lot of mis-information here and I don't think that I can catch it all in one go.

First, don't confuse Israeli, Zionist, and Jewish. They are distinct terms and distinct groups of people. Zionists support the foundation of Israel regardless of the cost, Israelis are citizens of Israel, and Jews follow the religion brought by Moses. There are people that fit in one, two, or three of these categories, but the categories themselves are not synonymous.

The next is that somewhere someone started using Jewish as a culture or ethnicity (as in the requirements for Israeli citizenship). It isn't an ethnicity, it is a faith and it cannot be passed merely by birth.

Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. Many Arabs that I know make the same mistake as some "Jews" (see above point) in claiming that being Muslim is passed by birth (again not true as above). The biggest problems within Islam today, you have mentioned a few above, are caused mainly by the people that believe in passing Islam by birth. These people are responsible for fusing Arab culture into Islam. The Qur'an does not mandate any of the things mentioned above, they bring pieces of local culture (the subjugation of women, enforcing hijab or veiling, etc.)into the religion and use the religion as a means of enforcing cultural standards. Go to the second Surah (chapter) of the Qur'an and read verse 256. The English translations I have read agree that it clearly states, "There is no compulsion in religion."

I am not trying to enter into this debate, rather to get folks on both sides to try and stay away from the propaganda machine and listen more to the facts of the situation.

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Celerity

Nope, not all arabs are muslim. You know how you can tell if an Arab isn't muslim ?

They're dangling by their necks in the town square.

lsvtec

See this isn't the case either, until the rise of the Wahabi, people of any religious persuasion had to be treated as equals in a Muslim society. Justice is one of the overarching themes in the Qur'an, it has been perverted to mean supremacy but again, these are cultural influences.

Seriously, quote spouting crap when you cannot back it up.

Celerity

The koran is unchanged though. It's not like there is a King James version.

lsvtec

Exactly, show me in the Qur'an where it calls to kill all non-Muslims (before you cherry pick the two verses that have come up here before realize that they were historical references to a specific group that had broken a treaty with the Muslims in Medina...). Infact, while you are at it make sure you find the verses that require a Muslim to deal justly with the "People of the Book" (Christians) and I cannot remember the name for the Jews, but the same requirement is made.

Silverchild79

1. Cel hasn't grouped all those people together, radical Islam has

2. As I understand it (from my friend who's Jewish), a child born of a Jewish mother is a Jew and it is an ethnicity, anyone with a decent pair of eyes can see a pattern of genetic traits. I have even heard use of the Ethnicity "Jewish" by Jewish people

please elaborate

klyph

Jewish = ethnicity
Judaism = religion

Jew describes both.

Silverchild79

exactly, you might wanna head back to the ol drawing board LS, sorry

lsvtec

I am not sure what you mean by "Radical Islam" here but each Muslim scholar I have heard is very clear that their problem is with the Zionists, those that would remove a people that had been living in the area now called Israel for more than 1000 years to establish a "Jewish" (in the ethnic, not religious sense) state. I don't know about the rest of the Middle East, but Jews (now in the religious sense) were treated well in Iran before they all left for Israel (before you jump on that, many Jews left New York at the same time...). The Qur'an mandates that Muslims treat religious Jews as brothers and sisters in faith because Moses is recognized as a Prophet. The only people I have ever heard use "Jewish" as an ethnicity are Zionists, most of the religious Jews I have heard/read don't agree with Zionism (at least the part about removing all non- ethnic Jews from the area).

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lsvtec

So how does one separate Jewish the ethnicity from those that practice Judaism.

If that is truly the meaning of the word (and I think a dictionary would disagree) then why does the US support such a racist state?

Celerity

What, do you get AlJazeera delivered to your door ?

Celerity

And everywhere in the world is racist as hell. I would say the only people that are less than us is the UK. The Japanese, Germans, French, Mexicans, even Canadians (Ask THEM about middle easterners and Indians) and everyone else is so goddam racist it's insane.

lsvtec

Actually, if this definition is correct then only Israel uses ethnicity as a requirement for citizenship...

Interesting that as per usual, you comments attempt to attack me and the sources I may or may not use rather than the idea. This is typical Celerity.

Silverchild79

and you speak untruth's and claim your only trying to give the facts, typical leftie