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newb · 09-16-2008, 11:16 AM

Your still missing the fact that when you shift without the clutch, you let off the gas. This in turn slows the input shaft without using the syncro, meaning less wear. To a point anyways.

caboose · 09-16-2008, 11:41 AM

Sure the engine slow it down, but the syncro is still going to try and match the speed EXACTLY. But the problem is now the syncro is fighting the engine and flywheel and input shaft, as apposed to just the inertia of the input shaft. Therefore you are going to have more wear.

Quote:

Additionally, it can be abused by exposure to the momentum and power of the engine itself, which is what happens when attempts are made to select a gear without fully disengaging the clutch. This causes extra wear on the rings and sleeves, reducing their service life.

K2e2vin · 09-16-2008, 12:26 PM

Key word, "can".

caboose · 09-16-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

Key word, "can".

Alright wise guy, go ahead and clutchless shift your tranny all you want. I'm on my third tranny thanks to some dipshit who though that his second gear syncro was indestructable.

Sure you can get away with doing it a few times, and who knows, maybe you will never have a problem, but I've seen WAY WAY to many transmissions with gear and syncro problems (hondas included). Have you ever price out replacing a syncro? Not cheap (BTW, I believe syncro price goes up as gears go down).

Honda designed the syncro to only be used to syncronize the input shaft with the output shaft, not the input shaft + engine+flywheel. If you use them correctly, then they probably last forever, becasue knowing Honda, they have done rediculous testing on them. But they were never intended to take that kind of abuse for extended periods of time.

So if you feel like replacing your sycros or swaping out you trans at some point, be my guest.

PS! Notice that raceing gear boxes and truck gear boxes are designed differently to be used for clutchless shifting. Think about it.

K2e2vin · 09-16-2008, 01:07 PM

Do you know how many transmission I've taken apart? Of all the transmissions I've taken apart, only one of them had a worn synchro, and it honestly wasn't that bad nor was it caused by clutchless shifting(the teeth were slightly worn on the 4th gear synchro on my Accord...car was stock/never raced).

Even dog-box transmission can be used with the clutch. The only way you'd damage a synchronized transmission is if you gas it or jam it into gear(actually forcing the synchronizers to "synchronize"). When you do it right, the synchro's never grind or anything...it just "pops" into gear. If you knew how to rev match the synchros would NOT work against the engine/flywheel/inertia. This is why you rev match in the first place.

newb · 09-16-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

If you knew how to rev match the synchros would NOT work against the engine/flywheel/inertia. This is why you rev match in the first place.

Exactly what I was tryin to say.

caboose · 09-16-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newb

Exactly what I was tryin to say.

Yes, theoretically if the rpm of both were exactly the same, then you would be ok, but they are hardly ever EXACTLY the same. They may be close, which will make it go in smoothly, but there is wear.

Plus, when you clutchless shift, don't you apply pressure agianst the next gear until it pops in? What are you loading up agianst until it pops into the next gear?

And if you can rev match like that, then why not use the clutch anyways, because then there would be no wear on that if you engage it at the EXACT same time the flywheel and trans are spinning at the same speed.

But to each his own. I'll just never buy a trans or car from either of you.

newb · 09-16-2008, 01:24 PM

Is this not how a constant mesh tranny works? All gear constantly turning to minimize wear when switching gears?

P.S. I couldnt give less of a fuck if you ever buy a car from me.

K2e2vin · 09-16-2008, 01:31 PM

I'm assuming you've never even tried it?

That's how a synchro works; the RPM does not have to be exactly the same; but once one ring catches it'll "match" the assembly allowing it to engage easily. The rev matching comes from the revs falling. As newb stated, all the gears are already turning. It's not like you're having to accelerate the shafts to match and what not.

You apply light pressure; you're not actually pushing it in. Once the revs match, it'll fall into place by itself. If you ever open the transmission, you'd see that doing that would just push the selector on the collar. Not enough to force it in but rather has the synchro pretty much sliding "at the edge of engagement"..the blocker ring will prevent it from actually engaging until it's synchronized.

The point of this was not using the clutch, but if clutchless shifting harms your transmission. If had to clutchless shift a couple of times due to clutch issues(either no clutch due to hydrualic issue, or simply too stiff of a clutch/harsh engagement).

You don't have to buy a transmission from me, shipping would be killer anyways

Plus, I wouldn't sell my transmission...consists of a few hard to find parts.

caboose · 09-16-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newb

All gear constantly turning to minimize wear when switching gears?

Yes, all gears are turning.

I don't think you know the difference between Syncromeshed and Constantmesh. You can have a Constantmesh transmission that isn't synchronized.

newb · 09-16-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caboose

I don't think you know the difference between Syncromeshed and Constantmesh. You can have a Constantmesh transmission that isn't synchronized.

I guess your right. I thought "syncromesh" was another name for the same thing. So your sayin Hondas are "syncromesh" and not constant mesh?

K2e2vin · 09-16-2008, 01:40 PM

Pretty much all modern car transmissions are constant mesh with synchromesh locking mechanism.

newb · 09-16-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

Pretty much all modern car transmissions are constant mesh with synchromesh locking mechanism.

I know this, I was just trying to bait him into givin me an ignorant answer.

caboose · 09-16-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newb

I know this, I was just trying to bait him into givin me an ignorant answer.

...SUUUURE LMMFAO!! You really think that I was going to say that honda transmissions didnt have syncromesh? You can't destroy syncro's if they don't exist.

I'm conviced that you have no idea what you are talking about. Earlier you thought that constant mesh meant that the syncros were always trying to align the gears 100% of the time.

And yes, you can have a Constant mesh transmission without synromesh. I believe that's what they use in motorcycles

@ K2e2vin

I have clutchless shifted, and I can do it relativly smoothly without grinding. I use the same method that you described.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

That's how a synchro works; the RPM does not have to be exactly the same; but once one ring catches it'll "match" the assembly allowing it to engage easily. The rev matching comes from the revs falling. As newb stated, all the gears are already turning. It's not like you're having to accelerate the shafts to match and what not.

Synros try to match the speed of the shaft to the speed of the gear, whearther the shaft is spinning slower (down shift) or faster (up shift). The goal of the syncro IS to try and match the speed of the shaft and dog teeth exactly, so any time they are moving at different speeds when you move the shifter into a gear, they are working at trying to match them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

You apply light pressure; you're not actually pushing it in.

In this step, are you not applying pressure against the syncro? What's happening is the syncro is attempting to slow down the input shaft, but it cannot because the input shaft is being driven by the engine. The syncro finally let's it "pop" into gear once the shaft and gear match speed, but until this time, the synro is getting worn.

If this amount of wear doen't worry you, then go ahead and do it. I would rather be easy on my syncros considering both my cars have well over 200k on them.

K2e2vin · 09-17-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caboose

.
And yes, you can have a Constant mesh transmission without synromesh. I believe that's what they use in motorcycles

@ K2e2vin

No one said you couldn't have a constant mesh without synchro's. What does this have to do with your statement about the difference between constant mesh and synchromesh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by caboose

.
Synros try to match the speed of the shaft to the speed of the gear, whearther the shaft is spinning slower (down shift) or faster (up shift). The goal of the syncro IS to try and match the speed of the shaft and dog teeth exactly, so any time they are moving at different speeds when you move the shifter into a gear, they are working at trying to match them.

Whether clutch in or clutch out; it's doing the exact same thing(the cones don't make contact until the blocker ring is relieved. So, these negates your argument about it wearing the synchro's faster. Rev matching with the clutch in would probably cause the least amount of wear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caboose

.

In this step, are you not applying pressure against the syncro? What's happening is the syncro is attempting to slow down the input shaft, but it cannot because the input shaft is being driven by the engine. The syncro finally let's it "pop" into gear once the shaft and gear match speed, but until this time, the synro is getting worn.

The synchros aren't actually engaging. What you're actually doing is pressing it against the blocker ring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caboose

.

If this amount of wear doen't worry you, then go ahead and do it. I would rather be easy on my syncros considering both my cars have well over 200k on them.

Simple, don't drive or drive on the highway only. As stated before, most every transmission I took apart had synchro's that were still good...minus my old Accord which wasn't beaten on at all. If anything, you're more likely to have bearings go bad than to fry a synchro; whether using the clutch or not.

YBLEGAL · 09-17-2008, 04:24 AM

No one is going to win this argument; each of you should just walk away knowing that your knowledge is 'correct'... call it a day, go work on something productive

newb · 09-17-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caboose

I'm conviced that you have no idea what you are talking about. Earlier you thought that constant mesh meant that the syncros were always trying to align the gears 100% of the time.

Oh man what was I thinkin? You are prally right. I mean it does say you know everything in your user title. Is that how you got banned the first 2 times? By being right 100% of the time?

caboose · 09-17-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newb

Oh man what was I thinkin? You are prally right. I mean it does say you know everything in your user title. Is that how you got banned the first 2 times? By being right 100% of the time?

Actually I didn't get banned for anything I said on this site, and the second time was a mistake.

I'm just going to ignore your comments, considering that you tried to tell me that a constant mesh means constant syncronized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2e2vin

No one said you couldn't have a constant mesh without synchro's. What does this have to do with your statement about the difference between constant mesh and synchromesh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by newb

Wrong. Syncros work 100% of the time. In a constant mesh tranny, the syncro turns the next gear at the appropriate speed to shift without grinding, rather the clutch is engadged or not.

Here's what I was talking about. Newb talked about how a constant mesh tranny spins the next gear at the appropriate speed. That's wrong.

A constant mesh does spin all the gears, but not at the correct speed all of the time. That's why I was saying that you could have a constant mesh that doesn't syncronize the gears at all

Quote:

The synchronizer ring (#7) in the diagram is what is normally called a synchro ring - it's the part that usually wears out. The synchronizer sleeve of the synchronizer (#1) slides back and forth on the synchronizer hub (#3), which is the part that is attached to the output shaft by he barely visible splines on the inner diameter. The synchro ring (#7) "rides" on the conical shaped part (#6) of the gear (# 5). When you shift into a gear, the synchronizer sleeve (#1) is moved toward the gear (#5). As it moves, the small teeth (#9) engage the teeth (#4) on the synchro ring, which causes the synchro ring to rotate at the same rate as the synchronizer assembly (#1 & #3) which are splined to each other as well as the output shaft. As synchronizer sleeve (#1) continues to move toward the gear, the inside of the synchro ring (#7) is pressed up against the conical shaped part of the gear. This causes the gear to match speed with the synchronizer, and once the speeds are matched, the synchronizer sleeve continues to slide toward the gear, engaging the teeth on the side of the gear.

So when you are loading up against the blocker (#7), you are forcing the blocker ring against the cone (#6), thus wearing down the surface of #6 & #7. Granted you are applying minimal pressure, so you are reducing the wear as much as possible, but wear is still there.

newb · 09-17-2008, 12:22 PM

Thats funny, considering I corrected myself shortly after I said syncros work 100% of the time and you agreed with me.

K2e2vin · 09-17-2008, 02:59 PM

Technically there's no wear, at least on the teeth(that's what "wears out"). If you look at a worn synchro, you'll see that it's the top and edges of the "house" that are rounded out. Loading it wouldn't cause these parts to wear, but actual engagement. Slamming it into gear, either clutch in our clutch out, just generally "beating" on the transmission will wear it out.

Yes it rubs, but the fluid should keep that area lubricated.

efhondakid · 09-17-2008, 09:55 PM

Ok, so we have all come to the conclusion that rev matching/clutchless shifts don wear out anyting.

caboose · 09-17-2008, 10:05 PM

I think that we both agree as to what's going on.

As to the wear issue.. I don't think that either one will ever come out the winner, lol.

B16RacerN2NR · 09-18-2008, 04:35 AM

I don't know, I just don't see how clutchless shifting wouldn't wear out anything. If that were the case, why even have a clutch pedal

It's just like an ls/vtec. Sure it has it's pro's but if it were really that great, Honda would of made it from the factory. That being said, IMO, if there is no wear with clutchless shifting, then why even give the car a clutch pedal...

Not saying you guys are wrong but i'll never understand it...

budda · 09-18-2008, 10:06 AM

That's why they now have autosticks.

K2e2vin · 09-18-2008, 12:33 PM

Easy, because you can't always use clutchless shifting; rev matching is more time consuming and some people would not be able to figure out clutchless shifting and jam it into gear. Plus, you need the clutch for stop lights/taking off.

09-16-2008, 12:26 PM	#53
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	Key word, "can". __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

09-16-2008, 01:07 PM	#55
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	Do you know how many transmission I've taken apart? Of all the transmissions I've taken apart, only one of them had a worn synchro, and it honestly wasn't that bad nor was it caused by clutchless shifting(the teeth were slightly worn on the 4th gear synchro on my Accord...car was stock/never raced). Even dog-box transmission can be used with the clutch. The only way you'd damage a synchronized transmission is if you gas it or jam it into gear(actually forcing the synchronizers to "synchronize"). When you do it right, the synchro's never grind or anything...it just "pops" into gear. If you knew how to rev match the synchros would NOT work against the engine/flywheel/inertia. This is why you rev match in the first place. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

09-16-2008, 01:31 PM	#59
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	I'm assuming you've never even tried it? That's how a synchro works; the RPM does not have to be exactly the same; but once one ring catches it'll "match" the assembly allowing it to engage easily. The rev matching comes from the revs falling. As newb stated, all the gears are already turning. It's not like you're having to accelerate the shafts to match and what not. You apply light pressure; you're not actually pushing it in. Once the revs match, it'll fall into place by itself. If you ever open the transmission, you'd see that doing that would just push the selector on the collar. Not enough to force it in but rather has the synchro pretty much sliding "at the edge of engagement"..the blocker ring will prevent it from actually engaging until it's synchronized. The point of this was not using the clutch, but if clutchless shifting harms your transmission. If had to clutchless shift a couple of times due to clutch issues(either no clutch due to hydrualic issue, or simply too stiff of a clutch/harsh engagement). You don't have to buy a transmission from me, shipping would be killer anyways Plus, I wouldn't sell my transmission...consists of a few hard to find parts. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006 Last edited by K2e2vin; 09-16-2008 at 01:38 PM.

09-16-2008, 01:40 PM	#62
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	Pretty much all modern car transmissions are constant mesh with synchromesh locking mechanism. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

09-17-2008, 04:24 AM	#66
YBLEGAL Regular Member w/ Cheese Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 2,746 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2000 EJ8 w/ SiR-II Rep Power: 72	No one is going to win this argument; each of you should just walk away knowing that your knowledge is 'correct'... call it a day, go work on something productive __________________ YBLEGAL.NET → Profile • Projects • Parts For Sale → Steel Braided Brake Lines • Front Camber Kit (Price Drop) • Manual Brake Pedal


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09-17-2008, 02:59 PM	#70
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	Technically there's no wear, at least on the teeth(that's what "wears out"). If you look at a worn synchro, you'll see that it's the top and edges of the "house" that are rounded out. Loading it wouldn't cause these parts to wear, but actual engagement. Slamming it into gear, either clutch in our clutch out, just generally "beating" on the transmission will wear it out. Yes it rubs, but the fluid should keep that area lubricated. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

09-17-2008, 09:55 PM	#71
efhondakid My name is Byron. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Akron-Canton, Ohio Age: 20 Posts: 5,424 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 89' DX Hatch w/B16 Rep Power: 222	Ok, so we have all come to the conclusion that rev matching/clutchless shifts don wear out anyting. __________________ ^ (dont listen) Dont PM me with tech questions. I will not answer them. There is a hidden message here. *"Motor swaps, turbo kit installs, diagnostics, minor repairs, minor fab and bodywork. Located in Akron-Canton area PM me for more details."* "In the dice game of life who gets the last roll?"

09-17-2008, 10:05 PM	#72
caboose I still know everything Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Hamilton, MI Age: 21 Posts: 414 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 89 CRX HF, 96 Accord EX, 88 Dodge Daytona Shelbyz T-tops Rep Power: 18	I think that we both agree as to what's going on. As to the wear issue.. I don't think that either one will ever come out the winner, lol. __________________ Formerly the.original.kermit Back from the dead... twice I NEED PARTS!!! http://hondaswap.com/parts-sale-trade-wanted/wtb-1989-crx-parts-161172/#post1079066 Check out my progress... http://hondaswap.com/auto-multi-media/my-1989-crx-project-144941/

09-18-2008, 04:35 AM	#73
B16RacerN2NR I'll be back... Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rancho Cucamonga - UTI Age: 26 Posts: 5,079 iTrader: 1 / 100% Ride: 06 Mazda 5, 91 Civic DX Rep Power: 156	I don't know, I just don't see how clutchless shifting wouldn't wear out anything. If that were the case, why even have a clutch pedal It's just like an ls/vtec. Sure it has it's pro's but if it were really that great, Honda would of made it from the factory. That being said, IMO, if there is no wear with clutchless shifting, then why even give the car a clutch pedal... Not saying you guys are wrong but i'll never understand it... __________________ Real Eyes Realize Real Lies

09-18-2008, 12:33 PM	#75
K2e2vin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 22 Posts: 6,358 iTrader: 2 / 100% Ride: 88 Honda Civic HB Rep Power: 150	Easy, because you can't always use clutchless shifting; rev matching is more time consuming and some people would not be able to figure out clutchless shifting and jam it into gear. Plus, you need the clutch for stop lights/taking off. __________________ 1988 Honda Civic Standard-more mods than I want to list 1992 Honda Accord LX 1996 Toyota Avalon-Spun bearing, for sale. Terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination. RIP Jon Eban Nie, August 31, 1991 - May 7, 2006 Y-Daniel Siu Eban, September 7, 1986 - May 7, 2006

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