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13sec rex?

Discussion in 'HYBRID -> EG-EK / DC' started by mrblk, Dec 30, 2002.

  1. mrblk

    mrblk Member

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    I am a big fan of honda's clean engineering, but i know its also very expensive to get a truly fast honda.

    that being said, i want to build a daily driven crx that can run mid 13s, and be reliable

    this may very well rule out turbo, which would make it harder to get higher power levels

    anyway, looking at a 90-91 si chassis (i want the aw disk brakes), but the si also comes with alot of extra weight, i dont care about AC, but PS would be nice, so if i can get all wheel disk brakes in another model, i would get that, because the si would obviosly be the most expensive option in the crx family.

    as for the motor i have been debebating between a b16xx or a b18xx, the h22 though well priced, is far too much weight, i want this car to be able to handle as well as it goes straight :)

    cost is a factor, so when i build the motor, i will be upgrading the internals with as many oem parts as possible, from other higher end engines (ie type r valvesprings, cams, pistons,) but im not sure what parts would give me the best payoffs, and highest revving potential.

    my goal in this car is to have full factory interior (no stripped down business :) ) and be able to run 13 second quarters, while not spending a horrible amount of money, im know its not going to be cheap, and i do plan on doing it right, but im hoping to get some good ideas from you guys
     
  2. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Non-turbo and mid-13s with nothing stripped? Leave the AC in there, and drop in a B18C (GSR) engine. Upgrade your pistons to Civic Type-R units to raise compression to 12.0:1, then drop in some more aggressive cams like CTR or Skunk2 units. Tune and be happy. Get a JDM GSR transmission with an LSD or a Type-R transmission if you can. You should run 13s with this setup without too many problems.

    If you want to go lighter than the Si, you can always get any of the other 4G hatches or 2G CRXs, then convert the rear brakes to the Si discs. The HF aluminum drums are lighter than the discs though, and perform just as well. They're a lot less work to install than an entire rear disc setup too!
     
  3. asmallsol

    asmallsol Super Moderator

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    with a b18c with upgraded internals will put you pretty close to the 13 sec mark. Removing stuff like ac will get you closer. One way to get a little bit lower would be to put light small wheels on (15 is normally the best pick and try to buy about 10-15lbs per wheel) You can also do other weight reductions with stuff like a cf hood, removing sound material and stuff like that. If you are going to be upgrading the internals, look at some other reputable companys for things like cams. Skunk2 makes a great set of cams that will yeild in more hp than itr or ctr.
     
  4. asmallsol

    asmallsol Super Moderator

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    Calesta, you beat me too it
     
  5. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    :D

    Sorry man. More aggressive cams like Skunk2 units may have clearance problems with CTR pistons in a GSR engine though. You'll have to clay to check no matter what though...
     
  6. asmallsol

    asmallsol Super Moderator

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    i did not think that you could put ctr's in a b18c i thought that the itr's could only go in the b18c and the ctr's could only go in the b16a?
     
  7. mrblk

    mrblk Member

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    interesting,

    i had planned on an lsd, as most places that sell clips,also offer the lsd for about $300 more, which is better pricing than a quaife or kaaz unit

    the gsr seemed like a tempting choice, but because of the b16s generally cost less, i was hoping it would be a contender.

    also, what do you mean by 'clay to check' , just a method to check cylinder clearances?

    is there any websites that have more info on the HF drum conversion, it seems like a tempting option, while not as 'pretty' as disks if it works, it works.

    thats alot of good info, im hoping to bore out the motor and get it resleaved to arounf 84mm? to get 2L displacement for torque, just because with most vtec motors nothing fun starts happening untill around 5k or so, and i want to get a bit more action off the line.

    and if i were shooting for a 2.0 would a cr/vtec be a good option, i havent seen any pricing for the b20 bottom ends, but if that were a compairable price to a b18 than i might go that route.

    also, with trannys, how can i find out which trannys will mate with what blocks, like a itr or ctr tranny to a b20/18/16 etc, or is it b series universal?
     
  8. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Whoops. I think you're right on that one. Wait- the B16B shares the same block as the B18C/C1/C5, so they should work.
     
  9. mrblk

    mrblk Member

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    ps, hooray for skunk2, heh helped a fellow board member install a skunk2 intake manifold this weekend, it gave him about 500-1000 more usable revs (stock was choking him at high revs), thats one thing i will be doing when i build mine,i was impressed
     
  10. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    mrblk-

    The OEM Honda LSD unit is great for NA applications. It's not as strong as the Quaiffe unit (my preference)- you'll want to run the Quaiffe if you want to runs tons of boost. I have the Honda LSD in my transmission, and it's held up quite nicely to all the abuse over the last 42k miles.

    The B16 can definitely be made to run 13s in a lightweight 4G chassis- the B18C is just a nicer choice. Raise the compression in the B16, pair it with a really short ratio transmission, drop in some CTR cams, then tune and be happy. That should place you into the 13s with good driving as well. Slicks might help too.

    "Clay to check" is a method to check valve to piston clearances in your engine. When you install higher lift/duration cams, you always want to check your clearances- you don't want your valves slamming into your pistons.

    I don't know off hand what sites have info on the drum conversion... but I really do think it's as simple as just getting the HF drums and bolting them up to your stock rear drum setup. I'm not sure- search on Google. I'm pretty sure though.

    :)

    Resleeve, not resleave. :D

    Boring to 2.0L is a great way to get more power- but it's not cheap. If you bore a B16A to 84mm, you'll only get 1.7L. Taking a B18C to 84mm will get you 1.93L, and boring the B18A/B to 84mm will get you 1.97L. Keep that in mind.

    Building a CRVTEC (B20/VTEC is what I like to call it) is a very potent option... it's not cheap though. I have a B20/VTEC setup in my Civic, and I love it. Tons of torque because of the displacement and high compression (I'm running 12.6:1)- I roll around town in 5th gear from 2000rpm on up. If you decide to go the B20/VTEC route, don't cheap out. If you cut corners, the engine geometry can come back to haunt you. That said, my engine has handled constant revving to 8000-8500 pretty much every day for the past year, and has only had a problem in the last few days because its owner did something really stupid.

    You can click on the link in my sig to read more about my setup.
     
  11. asmallsol

    asmallsol Super Moderator

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    I'll answer your questions in order

    1. Well the kaaz is going to be a much more aggressive than an oem one that is in the some swaps.

    2. b16 is cheaper because it has a cable tranny (the one that you need) it is older, and the b16 is a torqueless wonder.

    3. Checking with clay is just a way to see if there is any clearance issues (rather find out before you try to start it)

    4. I dont really see the point in puting the HF drums in there, too much work, you might as well just do a full brake swap (correct me if i am wrong, just never heard of it.)

    5. Calesta has a crVTEC but trust me, it takes alot of work (although it sounds like you are willing to do it)
     
  12. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    http://www.geocities.com/chipman_13/clippings.html

    Go down about halfway...

    I've seen it in quite a few other places as well- I just can't find all the links. It makes sense... the drums will stop just as well as the discs (the fronts do most of the braking anyway), but they just fade a little faster than discs would. If you're not autocrossing and road racing, it won't be an issue. Aluminum also rejects heat faster than cast iron- but its heat capacity isn't as great... your real advantage here is weight and rotating mass.
     
  13. mrblk

    mrblk Member

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    hmm, alot to think about, more importantly, alot more reading to do on my part:)

    it looks like i am down to

    b18 bored and resleeved, not resleaved :)
    b18 not bored
    b20/vtec

    i think i have elimated the b16, because of the lack of torque, and fairly low base HP

    it is going to come down to a cost in money and work Vs: payoffs, i dont really know the cost of a resleeve, if anyone has done it, or knows some pricing i would be glad to hear it .

    if a b18 unsleeved can do the job, than i would be happy to go with that, i would like the extra torque, but it may not be worth all the extra money.

    i looked over the crvtec you had built, it looks good, should be nice after you get it tuned also.

    if the price was right i may go turbo, at low psi because i think if i built the block up right it would still be reliable, but its usually around 3k or more to get a good intercooled turbo setup, and that would take away from engine money, so unless a ZC or something can get me running that quick i doubt i will get the turbo (i would sure like to get that pssshhh blowoff though, heh esp out of a car that will always look pretty stock. )
     
  14. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    A B18A will probably get the job done without resleeving... it's a pretty strong block to begin with. You can install one of those with a short ratio transmission (will still be cheaper than B16) and throw a nitrous kit on top. A ZEX 55-75 shot dry system on a B18A would definitely put you into the 13s, and be very cheap Estimate about $500-600 for a ZEX kit. You just have to worry about refilling the bottle...

    The B18A can probably get you into 13s on its own with a good transmission and good driving though, and good air temperature/density.

    :D

    You can always get a B18A, drop in some higher compression pistons, then spray on top of that- it wouldn't cost too much, and you would definitely reach your goals of breaking 13s in the quarter.

    The price to bore and resleeve through Golden Eagle (good place) a B18 to 2.0L is approximately $1000 or so, most likely a little more. They charge about $800 just for resleeving- the bore is extra.

    The B20/VTEC is tuned ok- the writeup on that page is pretty old. Go read some of my stories in the "Racing" forum- you'll see just how much fun I've been having with this engine.

    If you want to go turbo, the B18A/B block is a great choice. It can handle a pretty good amount of boost without internal modification, and can break 240whp easy. You're right though- it's still expensive.
     
  15. mrblk

    mrblk Member

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    turbo is still so tempting, or rather, the abusive power it represents is tempting :) i have heard that vtec and turbo was a bad combo, and that a ls turbo would be a better option, and ls motors are a dime a dozen, everone tosses those to get a vtec motor, has anyone else heard about vtec problems involving turbo motors?

    heh "dude your getting nawz" :)

    i would prefer not to shoot, but not a bad way to go, because i dont really 'need' the extra power all the time, just for a few seconds here and there :) and it could save me quite a bit of money on buildup, building a fast NA motor seems to be fairly difficult(by which i mean expensive)
     
  16. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yes, turbo is tempting. I stayed on the NA route though... plus it puts me in a lower class at the drag race events.

    :D

    VTEC and turbo is NOT a bad option- it's just harder to tune because of valve overlap. There's more overlap between the intake and exhaust events on an NA engine, so you have to either tune around it, or get some cams specially designed to minimize overlap while still maintaining the flow characteristics and advantages of VTEC. A turbo VTEC setup will still make awesome power.

    Nawwwwwwwwwwwzzz :lol:

    Spraying nitrous is an excellent way to go for short jaunts at the drag strip (or the street races if you prefer)... it's temporary, you can turn it off, and it's cheap. Yes- building a fast NA engine gets expensive, especially when you're trying to match the power output of boosted setups. NA engines' advantages typically lie with instant throttle response, no boost lag, and usually lightweight chassis and closely spaced transmission gear ratios.
     
  17. asmallsol

    asmallsol Super Moderator

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    just remember you are in a CRX, = light as hell. Plus 13's is not a totally distant #, if you said 11's with only 3k to spend then i would just laugh in your face but 13's is not that hard. I have always wanted to stick with natural asperating for cost issues. With the stuff you have been talking about doing, 13s are not far at all
     
  18. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yup. Jerome Soh (Sohfast racing) claimed to run mid-high 13s in a 5G hatch with only a non-VTEC B18 setup pushing 160hp. The CRX is about the same weight as a 5G hatch, so you would probably be able to achieve similar results with a B18 and not too many modifications.
     
  19. mrblk

    mrblk Member

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    lol, 11 seconds in a daily driven honda....I wouldnt put that much money in a car, (well... maybe if i got a better job)

    I figure 13 is a pretty aproachable number, not too too expensive, and it will allow me to eat the average rice-boys lunch. would be good to show all the fellas rocking out with 'tezzas they spent their money on the wrong end of the car :)

    all that aside, its a good project to get on.something i can build with my own little hands.

    also, any recomendations for exhaust, kinda off topic, but i had been looking at greddy, because i know it isnt too loud, i dont want to hear obnoxious noise while i am driving around.
     
  20. asmallsol

    asmallsol Super Moderator

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