another school shooting

[totalburnout]

This discussion is fucking ridiculous.

Thousands of years of world history show that society as a whole was more polite when everyone walked around armed and trained to use their weapons. I'm not talking one specific time, place, or people. I'm talking about a time when people would pull out a sword and kill you on the spot for disrespect. Questions of honor were settled at the point of a blade. Violent criminals weren't just yelled and cried at, they were dealt with by trained and armed men who has the balls to put their money where their mouth was.

Hahahahhaha!

Someone years of barbarism in our past and lawlessness constitutes a "more polite" society.

Also, get your head out of movies and into reality. Society never resembled this image you spew forth. Vikings raping and pillaging, pirates commandeering ships, revolutions, genocide, holy wars, events that date back to before the record of time.

 

[totalburnout]

E, your argument completely misses the mark.

Statistically those incidents are minimal and pale in comparison to violent crimes with guns.

Do you see someone blowing up a building with powdered sugar every day? On a rare occasion this may occur.

Do you see someone being shot, robbed, or threatened at gunpoint every day? Absolutely.

Also the point was unless you know someone's intentions what in the hell does a background check tell you? The answer is nothing. Do you know anyone's history when they turn 18 and have a clean record? You don't, so you can't use the argument of prior behavior and history as being an accurate method of evaluating someone.

Its the small group that ruins everything for the masses. I'm glad you think that guns are the solution, but as we already pointed out they were one of the facilitators of a major problem.

" i guaran-fuckin-tee there is a hell of a lot more gun crime committed by people who own them illegally
to which i say if they are already breaking the law to get their gun... what the hell are more laws and restrictions going to do"

And how did they receive those guns? A gun manufacturer somewhere was allowed to produce guns that were sold off to someone or guns "fell off the back of the truck", or hell even stores sold guns on the black market to make a tidy profit. The issue isn't how did they obtain the gun, but rather the chose weapon in crimes is guns.

As I said, the system is clearly failing. There's no clear cut answer as to a viable solution, but you portray the current solution which is clearly flawed as the ultimate one. I don't know how any more narrow minded that could possibly be... Try to think outside of the box here.

I don't believe I ever said I had a problem with responsible gun owners but there's truly no way to gauge without actual trial and error or the impossibility of knowing one's thoughts, who will be responsible with a firearm

 

[Drake]

I see that my argument was completely over looked so I will go down another path.

We all enjoy cars do we not? Thats the reason we all joined this site. Now what if I where to say that we should not allow cars to be driven except by the police. Think about it, some guy in the shitty part of town is low on crack. So he decides hey Im gonna go hit that gated community 7 miles away. So he hops in his car and kicks in a door steals a bunch of cash, some jewelry and other stuff. Pawns it / trades it. Now that car allowed him to travel the 7 miles in a matter of minutes instead of an hour or so. So are we not making it easier for criminals to get to our homes and places of work?

What about having parking lots in bars? What if we get rid of parking lots and make people walk through metal detectors and swipe any keys and say come back tomorrow when you are sober, or process there BAC before they leave? That way I dont have to die when I am coming home from the concert and some drunk ass thinks he is okay to drive.

We never know anyones intentions. I know deep down in side that I can carry this burden of responsibility. And guess what it isnt for everyone. I know what the risks are, I know what the price can be for saving my self or others. But you know, I am okay with that. I know it is hard for some to understand but I dont carry just for my self, I carry for you. I carry for your loved ones.

What if you where in a groccery store and some guy has a 12gauge sawed off to the back of your head. Would you ask for gun control when a legally armed citizen removes that threat?

I am sorry, I cannot by the whole, if we get rid of guns everyone would be okay. How are you going to get rid of all of the guns? Who is going to inforce it? Thats right, martial law would be declared. And we would all have our houses searched. But do you know who would still have the power? Criminals.

If you have time read this:
Calgunlaws.com - FBI Confirms It: Criminals Ignore Gun Laws

(bare in mind you probably will not see this in the main stream media)

 

[klyph]

It usually boils down to this:
Proponents of individual responsibility are pro gun rights.
Those who want someone else to take care of them (socialists and people generally lacking a pair) are anti gun rights.

The anti-gun people completely fail to realize how impossible it is to disarm ALL the criminals. Sure, it would be nice, but it will never happen. All the law abiders would give up their guns leaving criminals and government officials the only ones armed. I have the same amount of trust/respect for both parties.

 

[nootrac22]

so basically if i understand the anti-gun arguement guns are bad cause they hurt people. So maybe we should live in a world made of NERF and ride My Little Ponys around. Lets be real people humanity as a whole is fucked up and likes to kill one another. Take it back as far as you want in history, people kill people, always have always will. Maybe we should ban religion, organised religion has more blood on it's hands than any other thing in society. Sadly even then, even with out religion or guns, people would still find a way to kill one another. Life is tough grow a sack get a gun and defend yours. nothing is guarenteed, not tomorrow, not even today

 

[E_SolSi]

E, your argument completely misses the mark.

Statistically those incidents are minimal and pale in comparison to violent crimes with guns.

Do you see someone blowing up a building with powdered sugar every day? On a rare occasion this may occur.

my point was that it is ridiculous to limit people based on "not knowing their intentions"

Do you see someone being shot, robbed, or threatened at gunpoint every day? Absolutely.

and most often the person who is being shot, robed, or threatened at gunpoint is unable to defend themselves because they are unarmed... usually due to some delusional belief that the police and or government will save them from any harm or wrong doing

Also the point was unless you know someone's intentions what in the hell does a background check tell you? The answer is nothing. Do you know anyone's history when they turn 18 and have a clean record? You don't, so you can't use the argument of prior behavior and history as being an accurate method of evaluating someone.

generally you need to be 21 or older to carry a concealed handgun
often you must supply character witnesses
you almost always have to go for 2 or more interviews with the chief/captain of your local police department... one of which is sometimes at your home
by the time they are done and decide that they will allow you to exercise your second amendment right, they know plenty about you

Its the small group that ruins everything for the masses. I'm glad you think that guns are the solution, but as we already pointed out they were one of the facilitators of a major problem.

i don't think that guns are THE answer... they are MY answer... as ive said several times already guns are not for everyone... but if a criminals are going to carry guns, then i am going to carry a gun to level the field... YOU dont have to carry a gun... no one is going to force you to

" i guaran-fuckin-tee there is a hell of a lot more gun crime committed by people who own them illegally
to which i say if they are already breaking the law to get their gun... what the hell are more laws and restrictions going to do"

And how did they receive those guns? A gun manufacturer somewhere was allowed to produce guns that were sold off to someone or guns "fell off the back of the truck", or hell even stores sold guns on the black market to make a tidy profit. The issue isn't how did they obtain the gun, but rather the chose weapon in crimes is guns.

how they got their gun is not of my concern
it is the fact that they have them that concerns me
sure it would be all kinds of fairy tale beautiful if we could go back in time and erase the gun from history... then, i would carry a sword... actually id probably opt for a dagger (better concealment)... the point is, it doesnt matter what the weapon is... if criminals are going to use them, i will use them to legally defend myself

As I said, the system is clearly failing. There's no clear cut answer as to a viable solution, but you portray the current solution which is clearly flawed as the ultimate one. I don't know how any more narrow minded that could possibly be... Try to think outside of the box here.

i really dont see where you are coming from here with this "the system is failing" stuff... what system???
guns exist
criminals have them
usually illegally
criminals use them to overpower an unarmed populous that is unable to fight back
you can either bow to the criminals demands... or you can fight back... fighting back successfully means you must even out the odds... so either become a ninja, or fight fire(arms) with fire(arms)
is it the ultimate answer? no
but given the circumstances and lack of ninjas... it is an option

I don't believe I ever said I had a problem with responsible gun owners but there's truly no way to gauge without actual trial and error or the impossibility of knowing one's thoughts, who will be responsible with a firearm

indeed, you can not know someones thoughts... but as i said if someone is going to go through the virtual cavity search required in most places to receive a CCW permit... they are likely to be more responsible and law abiding than the person who gets their guns illegally, seeing that their finger prints and sometimes the ballistic signatures of the weapon are already on file... making it somewhat hard to get away with much

 

[Drake]

E has hit the nail on the head over and over. So what do those of you who oppose firearms propose we do? I my self have not see one viable solution to any problem related to firearms. All you ever see is "Ban Guns" "Ban Bullets" tax this tax that. That does nothing. If you read the link that I posted then you will see that these rules do nothing. Criminals do not go through legal channels to buy firearms. I know that from now on the police/government has my name rank and serial number all tied to my finger prints. So obviously I have nothing to hide form anyone, why would you want to take away my RIGHT to self defense, my RIGHT to go trap shooting, my RIGHT to hunt? Some lose sight of the fact that guns are used for sport as well.

 

[E_SolSi]

It usually boils down to this:
Proponents of individual responsibility are pro gun rights.
Those who want someone else to take care of them (socialists and people generally lacking a pair) are anti gun rights.

The anti-gun people completely fail to realize how impossible it is to disarm ALL the criminals. Sure, it would be nice, but it will never happen. All the law abiders would give up their guns leaving criminals and government officials the only ones armed. I have the same amount of trust/respect for both parties.

especially with the last part

so basically if i understand the anti-gun arguement guns are bad cause they hurt people. So maybe we should live in a world made of NERF and ride My Little Ponys around. Lets be real people humanity as a whole is fucked up and likes to kill one another. Take it back as far as you want in history, people kill people, always have always will. Maybe we should ban religion, organised religion has more blood on it's hands than any other thing in society. Sadly even then, even with out religion or guns, people would still find a way to kill one another. Life is tough grow a sack get a gun and defend yours. nothing is guarenteed, not tomorrow, not even today

a bit harsh and unrefined...but you get a as well

 

[E_SolSi]

E has hit the nail on the head over and over. So what do those of you who oppose firearms propose we do? I my self have not see one viable solution to any problem related to firearms. All you ever see is "Ban Guns" "Ban Bullets" tax this tax that. That does nothing. If you read the link that I posted then you will see that these rules do nothing. Criminals do not go through legal channels to buy firearms. I know that from now on the police/government has my name rank and serial number all tied to my finger prints. So obviously I have nothing to hide form anyone, why would you want to take away my RIGHT to self defense, my RIGHT to go trap shooting, my RIGHT to hunt? Some lose sight of the fact that guns are used for sport as well.

havent been able to focus much in this thread on the fact that target shooting / plinking is a hell of a lot of fun... and a great stress reliever

 

[totalburnout]

It usually boils down to this:
Proponents of individual responsibility are pro gun rights.
Those who want someone else to take care of them (socialists and people generally lacking a pair) are anti gun rights.

The anti-gun people completely fail to realize how impossible it is to disarm ALL the criminals. Sure, it would be nice, but it will never happen. All the law abiders would give up their guns leaving criminals and government officials the only ones armed. I have the same amount of trust/respect for both parties.

In much the same way that the gun activists have completely failed to realize how impossible it is to ensure 100% responsible use of guns.

Nice how it works like that, right? You set that one up perfectly.

 

[totalburnout]

I'm playing the devil's advocate here.

I really don't know where I stand on the issue other than the fact that I don't like uneducated, unsavory people who are in possession of firearms.

Its all so scary how many of you talk like you understand all the ramifications of the situation and you have the perfect answer.

 

[Drake]

I'm playing the devil's advocate here.

I really don't know where I stand on the issue other than the fact that I don't like uneducated, unsavory people who are in possession of firearms.

Its all so scary how many of you talk like you understand all the ramifications of the situation and you have the perfect answer.

This is why I read as much as I can about such things. This is why I go to the range, watch videos and plan on attending some sort of formal schooling. This is why I ask my self on a daily bases if I could what needs to be done. There is no perfect answer. But my answer, the only thing that matters to me. Is that during my course of action, no matter what it is or how it plays out. If I know deep inside that it was the only option, well then... I am okay with that.

As far as talking about responsibility and ramifications. Well it is scary for all of us when anyone of us makes a decision. I understand and realize how much responsibility it is to own a firearm. I train with it as much as possible. Now what about all the kids out there that turn 16 mommy and daddy buy them a new car and they go on a road trip? Decide that doing 80 in a 60 is no big deal. What about those ramifications? We all have choices, I choose to carry a firearm. It is a choice, a choice this great country allows me to make.

I have never said, and will never say that I know the answer to every scenario. I would be a fool to think of such a thing. No one is an expert on any thing. We all make choices and to many it seems insane. Driving a race car to some is stupid and unnecessary. So why do it? I guess the part that gets me so fired up about this that DUI's kill more people then handguns, yet we still have cars. And no one wants to ban booze.... Oh I guess they tried that once already.

My biggest problem is peoples haste to ban guns will only lead to the ban of the rest of OUR rights. Not mine, or yours, but everyones. Ive said that about three times but no one will look at that issue. You flush one, you flush them all. Thank about it. I mean really think about it. This country may end up ensuring our own fate to a tyrannical government. It is our duty and responsibility to this country to defend all of our freedoms. No matter what some dickhead crack smokin junkie decides to do. I will not give up my rights because of a minoritys shitty decisions. And you shouldnt have to either.

 

[E_SolSi]

This is why I read as much as I can about such things. This is why I go to the range, watch videos and plan on attending some sort of formal schooling. This is why I ask my self on a daily bases if I could what needs to be done. There is no perfect answer. But my answer, the only thing that matters to me. Is that during my course of action, no matter what it is or how it plays out. If I know deep inside that it was the only option, well then... I am okay with that.

As far as talking about responsibility and ramifications. Well it is scary for all of us when anyone of us makes a decision. I understand and realize how much responsibility it is to own a firearm. I train with it as much as possible. Now what about all the kids out there that turn 16 mommy and daddy buy them a new car and they go on a road trip? Decide that doing 80 in a 60 is no big deal. What about those ramifications? We all have choices, I choose to carry a firearm. It is a choice, a choice this great country allows me to make.

I have never said, and will never say that I know the answer to every scenario. I would be a fool to think of such a thing. No one is an expert on any thing. We all make choices and to many it seems insane. Driving a race car to some is stupid and unnecessary. So why do it? I guess the part that gets me so fired up about this that DUI's kill more people then handguns, yet we still have cars. And no one wants to ban booze.... Oh I guess they tried that once already.

My biggest problem is peoples haste to ban guns will only lead to the ban of the rest of OUR rights. Not mine, or yours, but everyones. Ive said that about three times but no one will look at that issue. You flush one, you flush them all. Thank about it. I mean really think about it. This country may end up ensuring our own fate to a tyrannical government. It is our duty and responsibility to this country to defend all of our freedoms. No matter what some dickhead crack smokin junkie decides to do. I will not give up my rights because of a minoritys shitty decisions. And you shouldnt have to either.

well said
100%

 

[klyph]

In much the same way that the gun activists have completely failed to realize how impossible it is to ensure 100% responsible use of guns.

Nice how it works like that, right? You set that one up perfectly.

Ok, so we've established that it is impossible to disarm criminals, and at the same time established that these criminals will not use them responsibly :roll:

You got me.

 

[totalburnout]

Ok, so we've established that it is impossible to disarm criminals, and at the same time established that these criminals will not use them responsibly :roll:

You got me.

Right, because twisting statements is an honest form of validation, correct?

This is what gets me with you guys and arguing your stance. I clearly just challenged you and showed you as valid of point as the one you made, but because I challenged you and brought up an opposing point you spin it the other way.

Its complete bullshit.

I don't know where I stand on the issue, but its sure as hell not blissfully ignorant which is the stance that you've taken.

 

[klyph]

You said that you cannot guarantee 100% that these guns will be used responsibly.
News flash: irresponsible use of firearms is illegal. Hence the irresponsible users are criminals. I'm not twisting your words, I'm repeating what you said.
I don't think you even understand what you're saying.

 

[totalburnout]

You said that you cannot guarantee 100% that these guns will be used responsibly.
News flash: irresponsible use of firearms is illegal. Hence the irresponsible users are criminals. I'm not twisting your words, I'm repeating what you said.
I don't think you even understand what you're saying.

100% twisted. Feel better about yourself.

Clearly thats not what I said, but I'll let you have your small hollow victory because you're too thickheaded to read what I wrote and the spirit of the sentiments that I made.

Congratulations.

 

[E_SolSi]

In much the same way that the gun activists have completely failed to realize how impossible it is to ensure 100% responsible use of guns.

Nice how it works like that, right? You set that one up perfectly.

"gun activists" have not failed to realize that poeple will use guns irresponsibly or with criminal intent... in fact realizing that fact right there is what in many instances makes them choose to protect themselves with firearms... if i thought that people with guns would use them responsibly and would not use them against the public with criminal intentions, i would not be as inclined to protect myself with one

you say they have "failed to realize"
fact of the matter is... most are fully aware, if not counting on it

 

[klyph]

100% twisted. Feel better about yourself.

Clearly thats not what I said, but I'll let you have your small hollow victory because you're too thickheaded to read what I wrote and the spirit of the sentiments that I made.

Congratulations.

Tell me how I twisted your words.

E said it before I had a chance.

you say they have "failed to realize"
fact of the matter is... most are fully aware, if not counting on it

 

[Drake]

I completely understand that bad people do bad things with firearms. But they are the ones making that tool do something. It isn't the guns fault. Just like it isn't the cars fault when some 16 year old thinks he has the world by the balls and T Bones a minivan full of nuns.

But really, if anyone can offer a good reason and I mean a really good reason to disarm everyone and how to go about it I would love to hear it. But I cant accept that no guns equals no crime.