another school shooting!!!

[totalburnout]

if you want proof that banning guns will not decrease gun crime and will actually INCREASE gun crimes due to the general law abiding population not being able to defend themselves you dont need to look any further than our nations capital, Washington DC

guns are flat out illegal there... you can not get a permit to carry... yet for some odd reason they consistantly have one ofthe higest rates of gun crimes in the country

Correlation does not equal causation.

Welcome to 9th grade.

 

[DarkHand]

I'm so far liberal on so many issues, yet so far conservative (true conservative, not wacko-gop conservative) on other issues, like gun control. My family calls me a 'neo-hippy'.

 

[get_nick]

The need for alternative schools is due to the fact that each student is unique in terms of the way they learn. You are correct for a vast majority of students the traditional model of school suits them just fine. They go to class everyday for four years and at the end of that four years they receive their diploma. There is however a group of learners that do not or cannot utilize this model of school whether it is due to phisical, mental or other factors.

In its most basic sense an alternative school is any school that does not follow the traditional model. There are a wide variety of these in the US today. I gave a few examples of them before. There are academies for sports, music, the arts and even technology and science. Julliard would be a great example of this. It allows students to focus on the arts along with focusing on their history and english. You can't get that in a traditional school model.

Going back to my student that is attending a ski academy out east. His daily schedule will consist of working with tutors for completing my schools graduation reqirements, along with taking coursework there, along with having blocks of time during the day to practice and take advantage of the weather. His main link will be email and a laptop. Aside from his skills in downhill skiiing he is no different than anyother kid in terms of learning capability. He would not be able to exist and train in a traditional school model.

Next I have a buddy who has a daughter that is totally blind. He is sending her to a school that specializes in children with vision disabilities. The school is totally normal in terms of curriculum but also infuses cane training and brail with their every day activities. Likewise his daugter is "normal" in terms of her abilities except she cannot see. Actually I would be able to go out on a limb and say she has above average intelligence. Once again would not be able to exist in a traditional school model.

You mentioned a phrase before - "special needs" - that I think gets really misused by people outside of education. I honestly believe that there are some people both parents and students alike that abuse and mislabel themselves all the time. I would love to get rid of this term all together but there ARE certain students who benifit from special education. LD, EBD, CD kids are in our schools and have every right to be there by law and no one can deny that they need special services to co exist with mainstream kids.

Another thing to think about is the fact that home schooling, charter schools, online schools, GED programs, and any of the other programs out there are all by defintion alternative schools. You cannot tell me that all of the students in these programs are prime examples of the labels you used before.

From the sounds of it the district you went to had a seperate school where they sent students that needed more attention, a "safer environment", or better services than what could be offered at you individual high school. I honestly believe that this is a great idea. Why wouldn't you group this portion of a high school population together to better serve them? I saves on money for the district by centralizing it, gives the students more access to people trained to teach them and it allows for a better chance at success. Most of theses types of schools have strict admission requirements for enrollment usually requiring testing and an experts referal. We don't look at a student from a Julliard type school in a negative light do we? It's the same concept

If we did not have these schools I am willing to bet we would have alot more of these incidents and drop out rates would be higher than they already are. To label these kids in a negative light is both dangerous and adding to the problem. My district is currently looking at starting one of these so that we can better serve our students. If the school districts can see these as a positive why can't the rest of us.

I am not sure how well I answered your question but I hope that if you have any more you feel free to ask. Further more I would maybe suggest taking some time out of your schedule to maybe look into these types of schools in your area and maybe volunteer there. I bet it would be very rewarding or at least educational as to what may be going on in those schools.

Here is a good link to a report on Alternative Education in America:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411283_alternative_education.pdf

well put. but i have a few thoughts.

1) ski school should not count. i'm sure his parents spend a rediculous amount to make that an option. by no means is that an alternative school.

2) special needs are special needs. if you are blind, deaf, or handicapped, you are allowed to interact and learn with students that are "normal". I also don't see these as alternative schools. These are a requirement and are definitely subsidized by the government.

as I think about this more, I ask a simple question. Why would we spend more money on alternative schools for kids who need more attention and safer environments rather than the over achievers who WILL be more productive in society?

I excelled in school. I received the same education as everyone else though. There were many like me who breezed through school. Why didn't we have other options? We are the ones making a positive impact on society. We are the ones who contribute. We are the ones who can give back. But yet we spend money on these derelects so they can get an alternative school diploma then go on to work at Mcdonalds. In my eyes, it's a horrible, horrible return on investment.

 

[chestercheeto48]

I understand where you are coming from but your definition of "alternative school" seems flawed. Just because you do not consider it one does not mean that it isn't. You cannot pick and choose what counts and what does not count in terms of an alternative school. All of the schools I mentioned are by definition an alternative school as they do not follow a traditional school model. There is simply no arguement to defeat the definition. Alternate - Serving or used in place of another; substitute: an alternate plan.

Secondly no where does it say that an alternative school has to be "free" because as we all know no school is free. We are in a sense paying tuition for every student either through a public school subsidized "tuition"- taxes or through an actual tuition.

To get back to your last questions there is no easy answer.

"Why would we spend more money on alternative schools for kids who need more attention and safer environments rather than the over achievers who WILL be more productive in society?"

To my knowledge there is no research to prove that "over achievers" produce more in society that is an assumption that parallels trying to define the word normal - you simply cannot do so due to the variables involved.

Secondly we have to recognize that there are places for students with above average skills to shine. Every highschool is mandated to offer classes to its students even if it requires them to pay for classes at a community college or university to do so. There are countless examples of kids so intelligent that they breeze through their schools requirements by the time they are juniors/seniors that when they graduate they already have multiple college credits on their transcript. I recall a kid that used this to get part of his MIT tuition taken care of by his high school. I will try and find that.

I see in your sig that you are roughly my age. It could very well be that in the ten or so years that we have graduated high school these programs have emerged or become more prevelant. It could also be that your district did not have the funds to offer these programs to you. Furthermore it could have been that the district, administration, guidance department, teachers, your parents and you failed to realize/communicate your desire to be put into an alternative program so that you can be challanged. I cannot say as I do not know what district you went to or your acedemic history.

I am sorry that you view these alternative progams in such a negative light and from your last two sentences I am starting to realize that I am most likely talking to a person that holds a very strong and opposing view on this matter. Like always I enjoy a good debate and I thank you for keeping this civil.

One parting question - what would happen to these kids - our society without these alternative programs that are actually helping kids get through school? Where would we be sitting as a nation in terms of homeless rate, unemployment, crime and poverty? Are you really going to say that it is a bad return on investment?

 

[Cashizslick]

And your going to be in a situation one day where you have it, a bad guy will do something threatening towards you, and you've never been trained to actually pull the trigger to inflict harm towards a person...and your brain is going to freeze...and he's just going to grab the gun right out of your hand and use it on you....

or your going to use it on them due to a rush of adrenalin, and he was prolly a guy just wanting to bum a cig...and now your a murderer.

Well, Clayton - i doubt anybody is advocating just handing out guns to everybody. To properly use a gun (or your fists) you need to train and prepare for a situation that might arise.

The same thing happends in street fights.

In my first street fight, my brain didnt even register that I was in danger or should be fending for my life - things happened so quickly that I didnt even have time to think . . .
. . . so what happened?

. . The 5 years of MMA i had under my belt (at that time) kicked in naturally - all the training and preparation forced my body to react in a way that both defended myself, and beat the f___k out of someone.

The same would be true of a trained gun user when in the exact same situation. Why do you think rookie cop's can still shoot to kill when they need to? Why can troops in the come out of boot camp having never killed anybody, and then raep the shit out of those god damn terrorists in Iraq?

Its all about training. You have to train.

 

[get_nick]

I also enjoy a good and civilized debate.

One parting question - what would happen to these kids - our society without these alternative programs that are actually helping kids get through school? Where would we be sitting as a nation in terms of homeless rate, unemployment, crime and poverty? Are you really going to say that it is a bad return on investment?

i'll admit, i'm a cold and cruel, heartless asshole.

at this point in my life, read: probably immature and irrational, that life is survival of the fittest. Is our school system so dysfunctional that it can not accomodate all types of students? Does our government neet to improve? I believe if you need special attention, then you can't cut it. move on, work in a factory, have some welfare babies. if you end up in prison, well, you suck and would probably go to prison even if you had a college degree or no high school diploma. We need to save our money and resources who can comply. High school is so fucking simple. All you need to do is show up. 98% of the people who fail at school neither try nor do they attend regularly. I firmly believe achievement levels are directly proportionate to attendance rates.

I totally agree that every student should have equal opportunity. All too often though are alternative schools utilized to help those who CHOOSE not to comply or go with regulations.

When I was in high school, there were not opportunities for upper level alternatives. It was a small school with no colleges local. It just wasn't feasible. But we did have 2 alternative schools. how does that seem to work?

To my knowledge there is no research to prove that "over achievers" produce more in society that is an assumption that parallels trying to define the word normal - you simply cannot do so due to the variables involved.

to say that this isn't true is totally unreasonable. although i cannot find statistics, it's rediculous to believe that the higher g.p.a. vs atlernative school grads are more constructive with education, involvement in society, and contribution to existence. and you know this, you have to be able to admit it.

 

[chestercheeto48]

I also enjoy a good and civilized debate.

to say that this isn't true is totally unreasonable. although i cannot find statistics, it's rediculous to believe that the higher g.p.a. vs atlernative school grads are more constructive with education, involvement in society, and contribution to existence. and you know this, you have to be able to admit it.

In order to admit anything you would need to define the following terms:

Constructive with education

Involved in society

Contributing to existance

Until you can tell me exactly what you mean by those three phrases I cannot form an opinion. I do know this - I have met just as many masters grads and PHD's working in low to moderately skilled jobs as I have students with GED's and alt. school diplomas.

 

[get_nick]

In order to admit anything you would need to define the following terms:

Constructive with education

Involved in society

Contributing to existance

Until you can tell me exactly what you mean by those three phrases I cannot form an opinion. I do know this - I have met just as many masters grads and PHD's working in low to moderately skilled jobs as I have students with GED's and alt. school diplomas.

how about this.

amount of community service, public leaders and contributors, school teachers, governors, mayors, monetary donations, contributions to science/education/civil advancement.

 

[BodyDroppedNikes]

Mom charged with buying Pa. teen weapons - Yahoo! News

saw this on Yahoo....

 

[dacheat]

Mom charged with buying Pa. teen weapons - Yahoo! News

saw this on Yahoo....

hell....yes. that is psycho parenting technique. building self esteem is one thing. turning your kid into a weapon-happy misfit is something else altogether. she could have opted to get him into a martial arts or self defense class. she could have gotten him into counseling...but no.

 

[Cashizslick]

hell....yes. that is psycho parenting technique. building self esteem is one thing. turning your kid into a weapon-happy misfit is something else altogether. she could have opted to get him into a martial arts or self defense class. she could have gotten him into counseling...but no.

This story brings us back to the reason we even have school shootings. . .. its the parents.

If parents were doing their jobs instead of deferring on the state & the television to raise their kids, these things wouldnt happen.

 

[E_SolSi]

it also has to do with the fact that kids are simply evil little fuckers... and find joy and humor in degrading and torturing others that don't fit into their idea of "cool"

but i guess that lack of accepting others can also be stemmed back to piss poor parenting

 

[Cashizslick]

it also has to do with the fact that kids are simply evil little fuckers... and find joy and humor in degrading and torturing others that don't fit into their idea of "cool"

but i guess that lack of accepting others can also be stemmed back to piss poor parenting

Well, boys will always be boys. . . but thats why parents need to always be parents.

 

[E_SolSi]