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B16 build

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by usmcbugle85@hotmail.com, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    So I have a blown b16a2 from my 2000 si in my garage and Im thinking about just using that for my next endeavor instead of buying, ohhh lets say a B18C. I either want to go all motor with ITB's or build it for a jackson racing supercharger. Now, over the past couple months, I've been doing alot of research and asking alot of questions, which has resulted in me learning ALOT! BUT, there are still things that I am not completely sure about.

    For instance, lets start with bore. The b16 has a stock bore of ...? and buy boring it out to ... that does what? The word displacement comes to mind here. And by increasing the displacement I increase horsepower and torque, correct? What Im getting at is I want to bore it out to 1.8L. Boring it out to ...mm will make it a 1.8L engine? Now I know youre thinking "oh but wait! youre gonna make youre cylinder walls to thin." Dont fret, I already plan on getting the block completely sleeved.

    Now lets talk about stroke. Changing the crankshaft so it has a longer stroke does what? Increase displacement? By making the stroke longer you are physically moving the piston higher up and farther down in the cylinder? So this should also increase the compression ratio? Also, on a b16 do I even need to bother messing with the crank aside from replacing it with a stronger lighter one?

    Moving on... So lets say I go with the supercharger. Do I just run the supercharger on the stock compression ratio pistons or do I lower the compression? If I do need to lower the compression what compression ratio piston do I need? OR, can I actually run a slightly high compression piston with the supercharger? I dont know you tell me.Now keep in mind everything in this engine will be forged. So strength and durability wont be an issue.

    Now to the ITB's. Ive heard lots of different opinions and stories about these things. Great for mid-range and top end but not so great for low-end and drivability. Drivability im not terribly worried about because I dont plan on using the car as a daily driver but I do want to be able to drive it on the weekends without it stalling out on me and just generally taking a shit on itself. So what do you guys know about ITB's. When they're good, when they're not good, and what kind of internal set-up you need to be running for these to be effective.

    I know this was a long post but I appreciate you taking the time out to help out a fellow enthusiast. Just remember you had to learn what you know at some point from someone. So, if youre gonna rag on me for being a "noob" and not being a master automotive technician then dont waste your time here. For those of you who want to help understand this...I am a Marine. In the Marine Corps we have a saying. Break it down Barney Style. So if you could break things down Barney style for me that would be much appreciated. Thanks alot guys.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  2. eg6sir

    eg6sir Supa Mod Moderator VIP

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    edit that into smaller paragraphs.. its too hard to read
     
  3. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    81mm.

    yes.

    85mm bore will give you an approx. 1.74L engine

    Good idea.

    yes

    In most cases this is true

    If you want a beast of an engine, id suggest replacing it with a stroker.

    Eagle makes a 84.5mm stroke crank that will bump you to 1.9L with an 85mm bore.

    With a normal JRSC, stock compression will be fine, if you cange the pulleys, it will increase the boost, and id recommend lowering compression then.

    I would recommend getting a fully tunable EMS like AEM, Crome, or Hondata to control the bigger injectors you will want to put on the engine.

    When it comes to ITBs, id recommend doing a lot of tuning, getting bigger injectors, and making sure you have a high compression engine (putting them on lower compression engines just seems like a waste of money).

    They are a $1,200 investment, so if you are going to buy them, id make sure you do everything right.

    No problem. Im not gonna rag on you for the questions, but in the future, break up your post into specific questions by pressing the enter key twice. That makes it easier to answer specific parts if someone doesnt know ALL the answers. Good Luck, and keep on asking questions.
     
  4. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    Wow! thanks that was exactly what I was looking for as far as a response. Sorry about the format. Ill do it better next time. Ok so I have a few more questions now about compression ratios.

    What is the stock b16 compression ratio?

    I would plan on going with the higher boost pulley if I went that way so where should I lower the compression ratio to?

    When I lower the compression ratio should I do it with lower compression pistons OR with stock compression pistons and a thicker head gasket?

    With ITB's what kind of "high" compression ratio are we looking at so that the ITB's can be effective yet I can still run 93 octane?

    Also, you said ITB's are a $1,200 investment. Im wondering where you can find them for that cheap cuz the cheapest ive seen was around like 2500?

    Can somebody tell me about rocker arms and where I can find lightweight ones? Im trying to keep everything lightweight to squeeze out as much horsepower as possible. I know that they wont produce horsepower they'll just release it by being lighter.

    Im trying to piece together this engine so I can get some sort of list to start pricing stuff. So far we have:

    B16 bored out to 85mm and sleeved
    84.5mm crank- where can I find a lightweight one?
    if supercharged I'll have stock CR pistons, if upgraded boost I'll have ... CR pistons
    eagle rods are a no brainer
    ACL bearings
    N/A with ITB's I'll have ...CR pistons?
    I have the head figured out already
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  5. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Here ya go.
     
  6. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    i got 1,200 cause thats how much my engine builder told me. i talked to him today, and it was 1,200 cause he was gonna buy three sets from TWM and they were gonna do buy 2 get one free.
     
  7. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  8. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    ferrea's VTEC Killers are also made for h22s...i thought about buying em.
     
  9. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    [/quote]I think your best bet would be to build a frankenstein motor like an LS/VTEC or a CR-VTEC using a B18 or B20 block and your B16 head. You should be able to sell the B16 block. You'll already have the displacement you want and it'll cost you about $300 instead of $3-4k. Or do you just want a fully built motor? Have you decided on a horsepower goal?[/quote]

    Originally I was planning on doing a fully built B20vtec. But then I thought, well if I already have a b16 block and im planning on putting together a fully built motor why dont I just spend that money on building the b16 that I already have. So yes I do want to fully build the motor.

    About the crank issue. You said that I should just get the stock one micropolished for hi revs. Should I do that for revs or get the bigger crank for more torque. Hmmmmm.....revs or torque? What about getting a lightweight crank that has a longer stroke? By the way if anybody has found one of those Id love to know about it.
     
  10. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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  11. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    wow thats exactly what ill be looking for when it comes time to buid this motor. That crank will give me the stroke that I will need for more torque yet be light enough to handle high revs?
     
  12. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    It's not just the light weight of the crank that makes it easier to rev, as the b16 cranks aren't lighter than ls cranks by much. It's the stroke length that kills the revs, As the crank radius would be much more of a factor than the mass of the crank in finding the moment of inertia of the rotating assembly. I believe the radius (stroke) is a cubed term in the equation, can't remember off the top of my head though. I do know that mass is only first order in the equation, and MOI is not nearly as sensitive to it.

    Short answer - you can rev an LS crank fine. I rev mine to 7500 with zero issues, but it takes more power to rev it than it does with the b16. I personally would leave the stroke alone. I guess it's just personal preference how you build it. Longer stroke will give you more torque over the entire powerband, Shorter stroke will give you a better top end. Plus, the b16 engine is slightly lighter than the b18. I should go weigh the blocks out my garage.
     
  13. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    If I put on ITB's I wont be too worried about the top end. Plus Im gonna be going with probably skunk2 stage 2 cams. So I think the top end will be fine. Ill probably go with the longer stroke to get more torque throughout. I also believe that an Eagle crank will be a little stronger than an OEM crank in that higher RPM range. Thank you very much though for your input. I really appreciate all of you guys helping me out.

    Somebody asked me earlier about hp goal. And I dont really have an answer for that. I think the better question is what kind of numbers have similar set-ups put up on the dyno. But, if I had to have a goal for this motor I would probably go with around 220-230
     
  14. 97CTR

    97CTR Senior Member

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    Don't by a crank only because it is stronger, I have never heard of a honda crank breaking. Especially all-motor. And stroking a motor will put much more strain on your clylinder walls and rod bolts. If you plan on running ITB's then you should not stroke it because you will want be able to rev high.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  15. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    I had no problems with 89mm stroke going to 9000rpm all the time. Just make sure your bearings are spec'd out perfectly, and that your head can breathe enough to support the airflow demand at speeds that high.
     
  16. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    hehe...we all know what happened to your build :) Isn't that why your rods are in my engine :) Sorry, harmless poke, I wasn't saying you couldn't rev a longer stroked crank, just that the inertial effects need to be coonsidered when you are building a motor. Piston dwell, pistoon speed, sideloading of the cylinder walls, they all need to be given a looksee when figuring out what you want to do.
     
  17. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yeah, I know :)

    But revving smoothly up to 9000rpm was never a problem- mechanical overrev was the problem. :)

    You can always bulletproof the engine to handle those extra revs wven with the unfavorable geometry- that way you can have your torque and horsepower too- you just have to pay the price on cost and tuning.
     
  18. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    ok, so lets say that I run the longer stroke with a fully built motor. i.e. forged everything and a sleeved block. would the stresses that the longer crank would put on the motor be able to be handled by the higher strength parts? also, if I run the 84.5mm crank will there be any issues with the tops of the pistons hitting the valves?

    I understand that I want a smaller lighter crank to get the engine rev'ed up quicker and utilize the ITB's at the top end, but I also want to be able to have some of the low-end torque so I have some muscle to move the car from a dead stop. The way I see it is, that if I have enough torque to get the car rolling pretty quickly then when those wheels start turning the engine is gonna be able to rev up quicker anyways and then get to the higher RPM's. Am I right or am I way off?
     
  19. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yes, your standard off the shelf forged pistons and rods can handle the extra stress of high revs and long stroke. Just stick with decent quality pistons (Wiseco, CP) and rods (Eagle, Crower, Probe) and you'll be fine.

    How much money do you really have to spend on all this? For all the parts you're looking at to build up your B16, you could have a GSR block and rods/pistons without having to worry about buying a custom size crankshaft and rods. You would have more torque because of the longer stroke, and have an engine with geometry proven to rev to 9000 without any problems. I honestly don't think that a B16 with a one-off crankshaft and ITBs is worth the money, especially when you can spend the cash somewhere else and make more power.

    As for running the 84.5mm crank and hitting valves- that's all up to your valve reliefs and your cam timing. If you're running the correct rods and pistons, you shouldn't have any problems with the valves hitting. If you increase the stroke without shortening the rods, you're going to slam the pistons into the head. By the way- a GSR engine will rev more smoothly than an 84.5mm stroke setup living in a B16. You have to shorten the rods too much in the B16 to make room for the 84.5mm crank.

    Crank mass: the stroke isn't going to change the mass of the crankshaft enough for you to want to go with a shorter stroke. The longer stroke will make substantially more torque than the mass savings will on the shorter crank.

    Getting the car rolling to get into the upper revs is all dependent on your tuning. There are tons of 87.2mm (GSR) and 89mm (B20, B18A/B) stroke B series engines that carry their power curves well into the 8-9k range without losing too much torque down low.
     
  20. usmcbugle85@hotmail.com

    usmcbugle85@hotmail.com Member

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    So I could buy a GSR block have it sleeved put in forged everything and still be under the cost of the B16 block that I already have and would put in all of that? I understand what youre saying but the reason I asked that question is because Im trying to figure out if I can use the b16 block that I have and achieve that kind of GSR power with putting in the same forged parts I would put in the GSR. No matter where I go I am dropping the cash on strong parts because I learned my lesson with buying cheap shit and Im done with it. I will only buy the strongest that there is for everything, because it will save you money in the long run.
     
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