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B16 cam gear bolts???

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by jgpoirier, Feb 26, 2011.

  1. jgpoirier

    jgpoirier New Member

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    For some reason the cam gear bolts that my local honda dealer ordered are to small for the cam. I cant remember the part number but from what I can remember it was a 10x30mm. Looked on GSR, Z6, Y8 and they all have the same part number for the bolt. Does anyone have any idea on which bolt I need?

    Thanks,

    Guy
     
  2. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    I don't know what you mean here - the bolt that holds the pulley onto the end of the camshaft? 10x30 sounds about right - or maybe it was 8x25.

    If it's that one, just goto Lowes or Home Depot and pick up a socket head cap screw (bolt) that fits it - better than the OEM crap anyway.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    How so?
     
  4. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    The socket head cap screw is much harder than the OEM bolt and as such, is essentially failure proof.

    I broke one off inside the camshaft last year- either it was a stressed bolt or perhaps I overtorqued it - the cap screw is way more robust than the OEM and not subject to such failure unless GROSSLY overtorqued.

    Additionally, Lowes and Home depot are open tomorrow and these bolts are in stock. No reason whatsoever to use the OEM bolt.

    The socket head cap screw also has a finish class closer to the internal threads in the camshaft. In other words the threads are closer to specification and the metallurgy is better - hardness and surface. Surface finish is smoother on the threads. Screw the cap screw into the camshaft 3/8" and wiggle it for fit and compare against the OEM. Night and day difference. The cap screw will have a much nicer fit and less play.

    The better part will also probably cost less than what the dealer peddles.

    There ya have it bro!
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  5. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    The OE bolts are designed to stretch(which help hold itself in). All of the load should be on the key. I had a friend use harder bolts and they pretty much walk out much easier from vibration(had to use threadlock).

    I have never had any play with the bolts at all. Specifically talking about the material of the socket cap bolts; they're much more prone to surface rust(though shouldn't be a problem if it's covered).

    Point being is the OEM bolts are far from crap; but rather application specific. Though, I'd say the valve cover studs on SOHCs really are crap(snapped them using a torque wrench).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  6. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    And that's why they use them in race motors - right? NOT. The torsional load is on the key, the axial load is on the bolt.

    OEM manufacturers use the lower grade OEM fasteners because of one simple reason - cost. They will used the cheaper fasteners every time - yes they work, never suggested they didn't. Fastener choice is always application specific in a proper manufacturing arena.

    I offered a cost effective solution that will save time and likely money. Cap screws work fine. OEM will also work fine.

    It's a weekend, dealer is closed - I'll use cap screws every time.

    The cap screws won't rust any sooner than will the key itself or the camshaft. The bolt used in the crankshaft to hold the harmonic balancer on is a hard one - more stress down there and certainly more prone to vibration than the camshaft. They work fine, yet I've seen cases where they back out too. I wouldn't attribute that to hard materials or the properties of such. Also the flywheel is held on with a much harder or higher grade of bolt. Same set of physics applies there.

    What works on the crank will work on the cam.

    When I installed the pulley on mine, as I recall I used white grease or anti-seize and not loctite. But, I may have put a dab of blue loctite on it. Don't think so though. Seems I went the way of proper torque and used a lubricant/rust preventative.

    Cheers dude!

    For the OP, I think in the D16A6 it takes 8 x 1.25 by 30mm.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  7. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    You think they're replacing those bolts on race motors? No. There's not much, if any, force pulling on that pulley bolt. Similar concept behind wrist retaining pins.

    And, I never said aftermarket was bad. I made my point; since you even contradicted yourself(point being the OEMs are far from crap). OE applications are designed with a specific stretch in mind. Assuming they actually cut cost where ever they can, you'd see a lot more of the same bolts on the car(buying bulk of a single item is much cheaper than buying different size/material).

    The crank bolt is torqued at a much higher level than the cam pulley bolt(same with the flywheel bolt; items directly connected to the crank are also prone to much higher vibrations). And, I know the socket cap screws are more prone to rust because I have used them too! Specifically on the seat in the car, where the bolt developed surface rust just from humidity.
     
  8. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    Snarl-Growl-Meow!
     
  9. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    When I say race motors, I'm talking 2000hp alcohol on up to and including blown fuel. Not implying they change out the cam pulley bolts on built up Honda motors.

    I change out fasteners routinely in maintenance or a full build. Doing a DOHC ZC right now for my hatch and may helicoil all the exhaust studs while it's apart. And upgrade whatever fasteners I pull from the engine - mostly bolts. It'll look pretty when done.

    Compare the socket head cap screw to the OEM fastener. The OEM is crap. Never did I suggest the OEM doesn't work just fine in that application. No contradiction in my comments. It's still a case of Honda using the LEAST EXPENSIVE SOLUTION they could find as does any manufacturer.

    More rust? That's true enough for the fastener type (socket head cap screw unless he chooses a stainless type). But probably not really a concern in this application as the internal threads in the cam look to be in terms of finish and Rockwell hardness pretty close to the socket head cap screw - the cam doesn't won't rust and neither will the cap screw in this useage.

    Yes, the crank is a more demanding application - my point there is they don't usually fall out - nor will the SHCS in the end of the cam.

    I wouldn't equate the cam pulley attaching format to a floating wrist pin with retainer clips. It would probably work fine, especially if the camshaft end were splined - it would float nicely and center up the belt nicely. That would cost money to produce and negate the cost savings of the cheap OEM bolt.

    Have a good day!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  10. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    :)

    You're right, this is ridiculous - it's probably me - I must be having a bad hair day! Cuz usually things are good with K2e2vin and now I'm sucker punching him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  11. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    Again, your reasoning behind why oe bolts are crap doesn't make sense. The cam bolts arent under much load, so the need for something harder or stronger is not needed. Specifically, I'm saying the oe bolts work very well since theyre designed to stretch at the given torque specs(which is how fasteners work).

    Manufactuers will of course use whats cheaper, as long as it fits the required specs. Doesn't mean its crap. When I worked in heavy machine(Caterpillar) we had bolts that were similar but had different properties depending on application. You can say(given your description) some fasteners we used are crap but compared to other hardware they won't snap or break like harder bolts.
     
  12. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    I thought the bolt stretches before it snaps?

    But in any event.....the key way and the fact the camshaft has the crevice to accept it makes me prefer OEM. That key has its place in the whole scheme of things. I can't remember (esp b/c its metric) but I believe the oem is around 6-8 grade in standard measurement.

    I am no Physics guru but, years ago, I took a few college Physics courses and it seems that the energy would spread to the outside of the cam gear and put the stress on the belt more than the bolt/key
     
  13. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    The bolt I suggested is available today. Probably cheaper than the dealer part. It is abosolutely an equal or better part in this application. Nowhere did I suggest the OEM part to be inadequate, nor did I suggest it need be upgraded. I recommended the SHCS as a viable substitute that is available at any hardware store at a price that is probably 1/4 or less than that of the dealer part.

    The OEM fastener, when compared to the SHCS are crap in my opinion.

    Again, the OE bolts work fine - however, the substitue part will also work fine and is available right now.

    I can appreciate your experience with heavy equipment and mechanical expertise overall. Please respect my experience.

    Cheers to you!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  14. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    I think the majority of the stress here resides on the thread and not the valve timing system.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  15. jgpoirier

    jgpoirier New Member

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    Wow a lot of talk I wasn't expecting! I'm going to run to Home Depot and pick two up to try them use my gut feeling to see if I'm happy. Usually I only run OEM hardware. The biggest issure I had was with the size. Is it then that it's a 8x25? Thanks,

    Guy
     
  16. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    As I recall it was 8mm x 1.25 pitch and 30mm long. I'll go out into the shop and see if I can find one and mic it for you. When buying these kind of parts, I generally pick up a handful at a time.

    BRB
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  17. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    Bolt part # 90031-PV0-003

    10X30 is the measurement I got

    Key part # 90741-657-000

    I bought these exact parts when I put CTR camshafts in my B16A head.
     
  18. jgpoirier

    jgpoirier New Member

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    Awesome thanks, I appreciate it.
     
  19. Dual-500

    Dual-500 Well-Known Member VIP

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    There was one sitting on the bench that measures 8 x 1.25 x 30mm long - that's the one.

    Probably get a size up and one down (length wise) from that to be sure. Don't want it to "Shank Out" or bottom in the cam because it's too long.

    You can ensure that by screwing it in without the washer and make sure it pulls in past where the washer would engage. Do this after pulling the pulley up snugly. Back the bolt out, remove washer and screw it in.

    Black or even a stainless version will work fine - they are both readily available.

    EDIT: The bolt I measured is from the camshaft in a D16A6. Yours could be a 10mm.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  20. jgpoirier

    jgpoirier New Member

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    Hey man, yea I think according to Honda's data base that should be the correct size and part number. That part number is the same as the two i bought yesterday. But idk i picked the cams off one of my really good buddies, I don't think he'd lie to me and he knows his shit. He said they came off a B16. For some reason the 10X30's that I have are way to small. They won't even grab one thread.

    Thanks,

    Guy
     
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