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b16 swap idle issue

Discussion in 'Civic and CRX - EF' started by EF_muse, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    Normally I'm all about the searching and FAQ's but I've not got the time, deadline for this car working is next Wednesday! Road trip to V-fest in Calgary and I still need to break in the new engine.

    The car: 1990 crx si, b16a swap, running PW0 (OBD0) ecu, engine has been completely disassembled and rebuilt including all bits and pieces on the IM and head, new vtec solenoid filters... disassembled and cleaned up IACV... etc. timing is perfect cam wise,couldn't set distributor timing because of idle issue ,2p service connector has no effect on idle either.

    The problem: Started it for the first time last night, started fine, ran up to temp with no issues, 2000-2200 rpm cold idle. Then once it got up to temp idle dropped to 800 then kept surging back and forth 800 to 2000... 800 to 2000, no cel though??? And it doesn't miss it just keeps loping. I let it cool down and started it again and same thing... :confused:

    I didn't have my factory service manual with me at the shop so I didn't check anything... I'm bringing it tomorrow so I'll just start troubleshooting after work.

    Just wondering if anyone could save me the time of going through all the components if anyones had the same problem, what should I check first?

    thanks for any thoughts.
     
  2. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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  3. YBLEGAL

    YBLEGAL Regular Member w/ Cheese

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    Yup, you've gotta bleed the coolant. Air bubbles are disrupting the FITV.

    Should be just that simple. Let me know :)
     
  4. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    video link and pics

    I put a video up on you tube, at first it starts out with engine somewhat cold then you can here the idle surging. All I'm doing is opening the bleed screw to bleed air from the cooling system, then just before the idle changes and starts surging I check the back of the IM since I just fixed a leaky coolant line, the hose I removed towards the end was the map sensor vacuum source.

    YouTube - b16 idle problems, no cel?


    A couple pics of my vacuum lines and IM (didn't resize the pics so that the vacuum lines show up clearly

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    orange arrow is purge cut off goes to tee blue arrow, then one line to pres. reg. green arrow the other line off the tee to the back of the IM for vac source

    [​IMG]
    pretty sure that's right

    [​IMG]
    I've never seen this one mentioned in any swaps??? What is it and where does it go? Currently the vacuum line is plugged.

    Ant insight
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  5. YBLEGAL

    YBLEGAL Regular Member w/ Cheese

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    Well it said video is no longer available.

    You mention the bleeding of the coolant, but I'm not sure you read my post above yours above this one lol (post #3). Is the coolant fully bled? Bubbles in the coolant cause the FITV to open and close and make the idle surge after it warms up...
     
  6. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    thanks YBLEGAL!

    vid should work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U78ZOSFlwbY

    As for the bleeding... Well I'm not sure how you might go about it so I started with the bleed screw on the return side (post rad) going into the head. Opened a crack till no bubbles came out, closed and waited then opened again till no bubbles came out, did this about four times, then disconnected return side hose on FITV and bled until no air came thru. All this while warming up so ~2000rpm. Should that be enough or do I need to do this differently?

    Btw I read your post this morning and since I was up decided to drive out to the shop and try it out at 4am just to see if it would work.

    thanks for the input, any idea what the extra valve is for in the pics I put up...
    this one???
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  7. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    I'm going to try again with more bleeding this time.... maybe I should take the FITV out and see if there's anything blocking the flow? I'll run thru the FITV flowchart in the service manual,I saw one for the IACV there must be one for the FITV too.
     
  8. hondacivicguy05

    hondacivicguy05 New Member

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    i watched the vid sounds like you need to take that airline that goes to the back of the intake cap it then where you got the t at the fire wall take it out and run one straight line from the map to your throttle body my car done the same thing when i hooked it up like that but i got the stovk d15 in my civic try it and see what it does i may be wrong never hurts to try though
     
  9. YBLEGAL

    YBLEGAL Regular Member w/ Cheese

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    It depends on the map sensor used, but that could be your issue. If your using a normally throttle body mounted map, then you dont want the T. If your using the firewall mount map, you need a T connecter, and a small section of line with a plug at the end off one side, and the other to the map.

    Or you could have a faulty map. Or one not for your car? Wrong OBD possibly? I forget the differences between maps, but I believe there are differences. Maybe someone else can shed some light on that.
     
  10. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    YBLEGAL, The map is the same one that came with the crx originally, it was hooked up to the d series motor that came factory. I've never heard of anyone mentioning needing a different map to complete the b series swap, also the car originally ran a PM6 ecu which is OBD0 and the current PW0 ecu is also OBD0. Seeing that the map sensor was originally run by an OBD0 ecu I'd say it's the right OBD...

    As for the vac lines, this is what I have now....

    Map to tee, tee to cap and tee to throttle body (right side vac source)

    Bottom of Purge cut solonoid to tee, tee to back of IM vac source, tee to fuel press reg

    Top of Purge cut solonoid to charcoal canister
    Center vac source on TB to charcoal canister

    Dashpot above main throttle linkage to intake pipe(pre throttle body) via one way valve
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  11. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    hondacivicguy05, Let me get this straight your saying I should run the purge cut line and tee it into the map line, and then take the regulator line and run that to the back of the IM or also to the intake pipe?
     
  12. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    found this pic of a JDM integra XSi which is what my engine came from... looks like my vac set-up is wrong, I'm gonna switch it to match this... we'll see what happens

    [​IMG]
     
  13. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    Anyone got an idea of what could be happening? I've bled the FITV, took the IACV off and cleaned it up put it back in and bled it... no change! Replaced all the vac lines and tried different vac set ups... no change!

    New vid from start up to idle problem... Just watch the last 40 seconds or so you'll hear the same idle problem only not so high anymore... Also hooked up my wideband you can see it idle at ~10 then it goes to 7???? What's going on ???:confused: Seems way too high at 10 for idle on stock injectors, could I have bad injectors that aren't closing? Any way I can test them?


    YouTube - b16 idle problems, no cel, wideband in last 30 sec


    I'm lost here any ideas at all??? Looks like I'll be taking the old toyota to Calgary and with gas prices the way they are 20 mpg in that truck is gonna cost me :(

    Just found a good write up on tightening up the FITV internals I'll try that tomorrow! Hope it works...
     
  14. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    So I pulled the FITV valve out to tighten the white slotted ring inside as I heard this could be causing the surging idle... it was tight so I decided to make a block off plate and remove the FITV valve completely. The cold idle is no longer 2500rpm, it's down to a normal 1300-1500rpm.

    Here's a little write up on dissasembling the FITV since every one I found didn't have pics...

    View of FITV valve below throttle body
    [​IMG]

    Once the three bolts(10mm) are removed you can flip it up
    [​IMG]

    Remove both 8mm bolts and you'll see the white slotted ring that needs to be screwed in. Mine was tight already.
    [​IMG]

    This is the valve removed from the intake manifold
    [​IMG]


    This is the backside showing the internal mechanism of the valve
    [​IMG]

    Here is the other end opened up
    [​IMG]

    Showing the area I'm going to block off on the intake manifold
    [​IMG]

    Finished plate, just put some sealant around the o-rings and tighten it down. I chose to just block off the hose ends leading into the FITV valve I guess you could put a fitting in to connect them or pull the hoses off and install a longer hose... I'm in a hurry so I just thru some bolts in and a couple hose clamps... done!
    [​IMG]


    These are the IACV valves... Left one is off the b16a right one is off the original D series. I swapped them since I know the D series one worked when I pulled the engine out. The D looks bigger but it fits the same... not sure if the settings would be right but it made no difference on mine.
    [​IMG]

    So I still have a surging idle, the cold idle is good now but still the same surging once it's up to temperature. I pulled the injector rail and I'll get the injectors tested since I can't think of anything else to try... could it be a fueling issue?? The car sat for three years but I dumped the old fuel and filled it with some premium and a a bottle of injector cleaner. Also put a new fuel filter in...

    Also checked the map sensor and it's good, holds vacuum and has proper voltages. Could it be the TPS?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2008
  15. efhondakid

    efhondakid My name is Byron. VIP

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    You have to switch the wires did you do that?
     
  16. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    Switch the wires??? What wires exactly? If your talking about the additional wires for the swap it's been done,vtec solenoid, vtec pressure switch, 2nd 02 sensor and knock sensor all wired up intgrated into the main harness and triple checked the ecu connections! It still bothers me that I don't get any cel's ?? I wish I had a cel so I would just know what to fix or at least where to start!
     
  17. efhondakid

    efhondakid My name is Byron. VIP

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    The two outside wires on the TPS need to be switched when you do the DPFI to MPFI swap.
     
  18. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    It's not a DPFI to MPFI swap just a B16 into an EF... the old D was MPFI, it's a 1990 si.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2008
  19. efhondakid

    efhondakid My name is Byron. VIP

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    I wasnt sure if it started life as a dual point, that is the only thing I can think of that would be giving you trouble at this point.
     
  20. EF_muse

    EF_muse New Member

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    Hey I appreciate the help anyways!! When you said switch the wires I was hoping I had missed something... I really would love a quick fix at this point. Thanks for trying though.
     
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