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B16A2 head build....(prepare for some long wind)

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by Luis998, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    Wow! *takes deep breath* I've been trying not to really bother anyone by posting a thread, but rather, by researching the hell out of what I need. With that said, here goes...

    After ten long years, I FINALLY have the means to start my build. At first I wanted a full B16, but now, if people would quit flaking on me, I may go with a B16 head and B18C block combo. I'm giving myself a year to finish the build, as web sites are the only place it seems I am able to get any information from. (yes, sadly I don't know anyone around my area that's into cars) Anywho, this is what I have thus far...*insert drum roll here* a B16A2 head that came off a '99 Civic. I'm wondering what my starting point should be. Currently I'm talking with EvasiveMotorsports and having them put together a package that includes Skunk2 stage 2 turbo cams, Skunk2 cam gears, and an entire valve train. Now then, my ponderance lies as to what I should do first. I've already talked with a machine shop to get the head completely dismantled, hot tanked and port and polished. I'm wondering though if this is all a good idea before I decide what block I'm going to end up with. My horse power goals are 330 and it will be built for forced induction of course, as the cams point out. I'm trying to think the other questions that guys like Blanco, YBLegal or Calesta would ask from the people building anything on here, but I'm drawing a blank. Feel free to drill me, grill me, but most important of all, teach me. The million dollar question stands....

    Where the heck do I start on the head? Thanks for your help in advance. :D

    P.S. Forgive my stupid ass if I posted this in the wrong place. Engine building seemed appropriate for a build of any kind.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2008
  2. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    It seems like you have a good start, and I'd go ahead and have the shop clean that sucker up and do some work to it. A good PnP can't really hurt. You can use the B18C block which is known to be pretty damn strong, or if you want to go the cheaper route you can always go LS-VTEC or B20VTEC, the choice depends on your budget there.

    The most important thing is to not get in a hurry. Take your time, buy quality parts and do it right the first time, that way you only have to do it once.

    Good luck :)
     
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  3. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    I figured the best start would be to have the shop take the rest of it apart, hot tank it and then PnP. I'm not sure how much of a PnP I should have done as there seems to be different "levels" if you will, of PnP. My guess is that I would want a PnP that would be good for both street and hopefully some day track, if there is such a type of PnP like that. I considered going LS/VTEC for a while as I seem to be running into B18's all the time. Realistically though I want to stick with a straight up VTEC swap, meaning either a straight up B16 or B16 head/GSR combo. Trust me when I say that I am more than willing to take my time on this build and be patient. I have a lot to learn and do NOT want to just throw money away.

    On a side note, my side project just took a turn for the better. I just found a complete Z6 swap and will probably be working on that at the same time as well. Five bucks says that gets finished before the B. haha :D
     
  4. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    Thanks, Scott. I spoke with the machine shop and they gave me a $50 price to have it hot tanked and dismantled completely. I am going to check with another reputable shop this week and compare prices. I'm thinking that the prices may be close between them. The only difference will be distance and I'm willing to drive for good service. The shop told me that they usually include a valve job along with the port and polish. I'm thinking that bronze valve guides will probably be a good idea as well. To me it makes sense to switch to the bronze valve guides.
     
  5. LS_VTEC

    LS_VTEC you get the BRAKE

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    Clean up the head. replace all seals, valvetrain components and so forth. Your question should be what components you need to buy. Skunk2 has failed under 20+psi on numerous hondas out of my tuners shop. They recommend Ferrea. Dual valve springs, titanium retainers, oversized valves (since your getting a valve job done anyway). No need for flat faced valves. Good luck.
     
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  6. LS_VTEC

    LS_VTEC you get the BRAKE

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    Oh yea.... there is no need for the skunk2 cams if your looking to make 400whp. I've made 500+ with gsr cams. They seemed to work best in my turbo setup, even over the itr's.
     
  7. philyphreak2127

    philyphreak2127 Back in the Game

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    You are very smart to start from the head and work your way down. As for your post I am glad to see someone who has a basis to start on rather than diving in and asking stupid ass questions. I would say let that shop do everything you stated except for a couple things. First of all I know some shops charge less if you take the cams out yourself. I would suggest that. Save yourself some money by taking 20 minutes of your day, to remove these. Also I would say take it from LS_Vtec and go with some gsr cams instead of skunk2 cams, save yourself even more money right there. I would say instead of the b18 bottom end I would go with the b20 bottom end. There is this saying there is no replacement for displacement, I disagree but if you don't have the block yet I would suggest going with that. Also depending on how many psi you plan on pushin I would suggest some eagle rods, and forged pistons, a thicker head gasket, and arp head studs. Trust me all of these items have the potential of handling more power, and will save you money in the end. Also the thicker head gasket will lower compression a bit, which will be good with your turbo. Which turbo do you plan on running?
     
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  8. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    The Skunk2 valvetrain has failed? Seeing on how I'm still trying to find more information on my build, this is new to me. I have seen a lot of people going with Ferrera valves, but just can't find a place to read up on them as to why they would. I figured purchasing the entire valvetrain from the same company (in this case Skunk2) would be a smart choice since all components would work harmoniously with each other and were made to work together. I know that I will be getting dual valve springs and titanium retainers. I was looking for the bronze valve guide link that I have but can't find it. Eh, more googling/research time. haha How does one determine the oversize of the valves and what is the difference between a three and five angle valve job?

    Thank you. I figured a good, solid starting point would be a smart way to go. I didn't just want to "dive in" and tackle everything all at once. That and finding what I want has been difficult enough. The good thing is that the cams, springs, and retainers are already out. As far as the block goes, I did contemplate going the LS/VTEC route, but ended up thinking that it may be a really difficult project for me to take on while I'm still learning and figuring out some of the basics. You nailed the head right on the block (instead of you hit the nail right on the head analogy) when you talked about the block components. Eagle rods, CP pistons, etc., will be used on the bottom end build. We just can't get ahead of ourselves, since I am just working on the head and still don't know which block I will end up with. haha ARP everything WILL be included in this build. Piece of mind and just doing things right are two of the reasons why I'll be using their studs, bolts, etc. etc. I've been playing with the compression calculator lately in trying to figure out the thickness of the head gasket. Can't do much of that now since, again, no block yet. As far as the turbo goes, I'm contemplating building my own kit, so to speak. That way I will get every component I want. Without going into too much detail (since, again, I don't have the block yet) I could guess on a T3/T4 set up. Again, that is just a guess.

    Do you see any downside in using the Skunk2 components I mentioned, Scott? I figured they would be the best way to go but am not sure at all if they will help the engine make enough power so that the turbo can sit back, relax, and take a break here and there. haha Nothing is set in stone yet, as I could change around the entire valvetrain and cams. This is the beautiful part of research and learning...you can edit the hell out of your set up until you get it right...then buy, buy, buy! :D
     
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  9. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    By the way, if anyone has links to where I may be able to purchase bronze valve guides and find information on Fererra I would greatly appreciate it.
     
  10. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    I will take everyones word then and go with a different valvetrain. Ferrea sounds like the obvious choice here. I just have to find their site. haha Higher quality is not only good quality to me, but also peace of mind.

    You know, I remember numerous hours playing Mario Bros. on NES, then on SNES. I KNEW that there was a correlation between the NES vs. SNES's graphics and valve jobs. haha I really liked playing Wrestlemania Challenge on NES and using either the Ultimate Warrior or Brutus the Barber Beefcake. Ahh, the memories. Thank you for clearing that up. At least that's one more thing that I now know to do, a five angle versus a three angle valve job. Which would be a better choice, regular sized or over sized valves and which brand has a good reputation?

    Now to find the valvetrain!

    Would it be safe to stick with the Skunk2 cams that I chose and go with a different valvetrain or should I venture to a different set of cams?



    I found the PortFlow site, Scott, and noticed they have both PortFlow and Ferrea valvetrain packages. The question is, which of the two to go with. I figured the price would be way more than what is advertised, so that's a good thing. Now that the price is out of the way, I'll have to decide between the two. I'm not into skimping out on anything and from what you have said, both seem to be very good products. I wonder, in comparing the two, would it be like comparing apples to oranges? Decisions, decisions, decisions.

    I'm going to have to let Evasive down easily, as they just sent me the quote for the valvetrain package.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  11. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    I figured someone would enjoy my analogies. :D

    Now then, about the valvetrain, around these parts we LOVE apples. Some are more expensive than the others, while some taste better than the others. With that said, if both the "Granny Smith" (Ferrea valvetrain) which is a bit more expensive and the "Red Delicious" (PortFlow valvetrain) apple are just about the same, for the price, I'm somewhat inclined to go with the "Red Delicious" so I can better use the rest of the funds elsewhere. Perhaps on a crap ton of Honda stickers that add FIVE HORSEPOWER PER STICKER!!!

    Whew! I'm glad I have a better idea of what direction I'm going now as far as the valvetrain and Cams go. If I could only tell my left from my right nowadays I'd be set. :eek: GPS anyone? haha
     
  12. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    Oh! I know what I forgot to post...pictures of the quasi-dismantled head! It looks ever so beautiful. :rolleyes: I'd like to take this time to thank God for the impending hot tank bath that my head will be receiving very soon. THANK YOU SWEET JESUS! I'll do my best to pre "bath" and post "bath" pics soon. That's the head of my engine build for your perverts out there. :w00t:
     
  13. LS_VTEC

    LS_VTEC you get the BRAKE

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    damnit, Blanco answered the question before me ;x
     
  14. LS_VTEC

    LS_VTEC you get the BRAKE

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    Port Flow does GREAT head work. They're turn-around time isn't so delightful but the work was well worth the wait.
     
  15. philyphreak2127

    philyphreak2127 Back in the Game

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    The t3/t4 turbo is an awesome pick for your application. As for your power goals....building the head and going with even the b18 block with the t3/t4 pushing about 10 psi will probably put you up at 330. You will have decent power with just the built head. But when you say ls/vtec seems too complicated you do realize you have a vtec head already right? Not to be an ass just making sure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2008
  16. LS_VTEC

    LS_VTEC you get the BRAKE

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    I would go bigger for his build. 60-1 is my all time fav'.
     
  17. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    The "I's" have it. PortFlow valve train for one thousand it is, Alex. :D

    He's just cool like that. :p
    I know someone else who does great "head" wor...err, wrong thread.

    I've talked to two shops around here about doing the head work. They seem reliable and dependable. I know a lot of Chevy and overall, American cars at work that have used them to build their engines and they come highly recommended.

    Whenever I get to the point of picking out a turbo, that seems like the logical choice. I'm not terribly worried right now, seeing how I have time to read up more on different turbo's and don't have to come to my final decision any time soon. I love learning. *grins*

    YOU ASSHOL....err, I mean, I feel you on having the VTEC head already, :D but it just seems that building an LS/VTEC might be a tad complicated for me to put together. I won't be doing most of the work myself, and right now I feel more comfortable going with "parts that were meant for each other" so to speak. If I end up with a B16 block, then voila! They were made for each other. If I end up with a GSR block, I'm sure I might have to learn more about it, but it would not be as difficult, or so I believe, to mate the two together. (*in Butthead's voice* I said mate.) Besides, I WANT OIL SQUIRTERS! Hmm, that sounds a tad on the freaky sexual side. Eh, maybe it's just me.

    *raises hand* Question! What the heck is a 60-1? Are you giving people odds against my completing my build? haha I may venture to guess (not assume, 'cause you know what happens when you ASSume things) that you're talking about a different turbo? If so, do tell.

    Oh, question about the cams. I was thinking about it today (yes, I do think once in a while as long as my fire extinguisher is within reach) that there could perhaps be better cams out there that I do not know about which might work better towards my build. That is, other than the Skunk2, stage 2, turbo cams. I like these, Blanco likes these, anyone else have any suggestions? They seem like the way to go to me, but I am still learning about lift, lobes, duration.....lobster bisque and everything else in between.
     
  18. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    Sonofa...I forgot to ask too, what about KMS? They offer a complete valve train package with Dual Racing Springs, Titanium Retainers ,Stainless Steel Racing Valves, Valve Guide seals, and a blockguard and a bag of tootsie rolls with every purchase. How would they compare to PortFlow or Ferrea? Would it be like the whole Peaches to Plums comparison again? Or Apples to monkeys? I don't know, I just got home from work and am really out of it. I'm sure it's not obvious at all. :D
     
  19. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    Reverse psychology by Blanco and a B16 block with Eagle Rods...

    So what you're really saying is that they're great, my engine won't blow up if I use their parts, and I should buy two of everything? I knew there was something about you and reverse psychology, Scott. :D

    (note to self: do not get head from KMS, they scrape with their teeth)

    On a non-sarcastic note...haha...my friend just called me and told me that he found an almost complete block for me. All that he thinks is missing is the alternator and the timing belt bracket? I don't know, I just woke up. Anywho, the guy wants $400 for it and it comes with a very special gift....Eagle Rods. *smirks* To buy or not to buy, THAT is the question.

    Lets recap on the slight "block talk" we've had lately. Here it goes...I couldn't decide whether to get a B16 block or a GSR. Suggestions? Comments? Ideas? Scott? Ultimately it doesn't matter a pile of heaving monkey crap what everyone else says, as it is my decision, haha...but I would like to get your opinions. With that said...GO!!!!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2008
  20. Luis998

    Luis998 Honda Enthusiast

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    Sonofa...I forgot to mention that before. *smacks self* It's a JDM B16 block. From what I know everything that I said before is correct and I believe everything is in good shape as far as the cylinder walls go. He did say that the crank is in great shape.
     
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