B16A2 head build....(prepare for some long wind)

[Luis998]

What is the difference in quality between Omni Power and PortFlow, Toda, Buddy Club, and JUN valve trains? I was also looking at different cams like Toda, Buddy Club , and JUN, trying to compare them to the Skunk2's I want and trying to figure out the difference between them. Sonofa...I feel like I want to learn too much at times.Also, any recommendations on valves and whether they should be oversized or not? If so, should they be .5 or 1.0 oversized?

 

[Luis998]

Teach him and "pass it forward", like the movie said.

Quite a few D-Series guys use Omni Power with good results. Of the valve trains you listed the only one I would stay away from is Buddy Club. A little too much like OBX for my tastes. I'd probably pass on Toda and Jun too, just because of the price points...I'm very thrifty.

With cams, I'd stay away from Buddy Club because they've been known to eat through rockers. When you're looking at the cam specs, it's important to keep in mind that not everyone uses the same standard of measurement. If you want to make a little more power off boost you'll want a cam with a little more duration. Looking for high boost numbers, you want a higher lifting cam. Given S2's new lobe design, I'd say it's definitely worth the shot. If all else fails you can sell them and get something else.

Over-sized valves really depend on what cam profile you're going to use. It's easy to run into valve/valve contact issues with aggressive cams and over-sized valves.

I'm really grateful for that article, Scott. Anytime you wish to post anymore information like that here, please feel free to do so. I try and save the information you pass to others and let me tell you, when it gets to the day when everything is completed, I'll definitely know how to break-in my engine properly.

There's nothing wrong in being thrifty. I'm the same way, that is why I ask questions about different makes. I also do not want to throw my money away in a bunch of crap (like an under drive pulley without a harmonic balancer) that I don't need, just looks cool or is, and I am so going to quote you here "blow your engine up." haha PortFlow seems like the best bang for my buck as far as valve train goes, though I may end up using Omni Power on my D build.

Knowing what you know about the S2's cam profile (which by the way, if you could define what cam profile is exactly, I would greatly appreciate it) would you suggest using over sized valves? If so, would they be .5 or 1.0 over size? Also, which valves would be able to handle what I would be putting out safely and won't snap like a twig? Do you think that there are "better" cams for my application as well? I'm going to re-read that article and see if by doing that and comparing different cams, if there are any better cams.

I'm also going to print my entire thread out (I know, it's kind of dorky) and read it at work. That way I can go over the things we have all covered in my head and when I get home, I can dive back into the realm, researching the hell out of everything. Thanks again.

 

[philyphreak2127]

what is wrong with obx valvetrain? a buddy of mine just had his set in his b16 head for his crv/vtec build. But personally I would rather go with Skunk2. But thanks for the mention of Omni Power being decent for d-series builds looks like I have another contender for when I replace my cam.

 

[philyphreak2127]

care to explain? don't have any experience with obx. is it basically like APC just for the internals of a motor?

 

[Luis998]

OBX makes pretty much everything Skunk2 makes, except they're cheap knockoffs. Not just knockoffs, which are fine, but cheap knockoffs. Things break on a very regular basis.

I've read the same thing about OBX. Whenever I get to the point of choosing, say my intake manifold, I will perhaps consider going with an ITR or perhaps an AEBS. That's something for another day though, as I am still figuring out everything else. Scott, have you heard anything about AEBS's manifolds? Or anyone else in fact. This isn't part of the head build, and I have been trying to stay away from talking about the block build, but I should be receiving a nice Walbro 255 fuel pump in a few days. That will complement whichever injectors I end up using on my build. I'm contemplating 440cc, but I am not that far yet. I ran into a "problem" and reading/research is going to be the most I will be able to do. However, I do have plenty of patience, so everything is okay there. I do not believe in rushing whatsoever. I'm still pondering on which valves I should use. As soon as I am using my own computer again (the cable company came by today and said something about the entire "system" being down) I will be able to upload some pre hot tanking head pictures. They're not going to be anything spectacular, as all B16 heads look the same. I think that's it for now. I'm kind of down because of the "road block" I was unfortunate enough to run into, but never the less, I will use this time positively to learn more and do more research.

Here's something that I am not sure about at all. I know that my head is OBD2. With that said, is it possible to use an OBD1 distributor instead of an OBD2? My guess is that it will not fit. I had this conversation with a guy at school and he COMPLETELY screwed my mind up about it. I may end up putting this build in my EK when I'm done, which is OBD2, though the temptation will be there, I'm sure, to put it in my EG. However, the D will be nice too once it is done and will drop right in to the EG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philyphreak2127
what is wrong with obx valvetrain? a buddy of mine just had his set in his b16 head for his crv/vtec build. But personally I would rather go with Skunk2. But thanks for the mention of Omni Power being decent for d-series builds looks like I have another contender for when I replace my cam.

If anyone can find the link for Omni Power D-series valve train, please let me know. I have only been able to locate B-series thus far.

By the way, Scott, my "noodle" has been wrapped around every link you have posted so far. Thanks once again and keep the information coming.

 

[Luis998]

The AEBS IM is pretty bad-ass.

Yep, you can convert the head to OBDI. I'm not quite sure about that conversion though since I've never had anything OBDII or a reason to learn about it.

Right on, these are the times that make my happy to help out.

Awesome man. Now I just have to re-find the site where I found the AEBS for sale for the lowest price. It's a really sweet looking manifold, seeing how, if I remember correctly, all the hoses are on the bottom side, making it look clean on top.

Guess what, Scott? Now it's time for me to spend more time doing something at least you know I love to do, reading and researching about an OBD2 to OBD1 head conversion. I wonder if it is going to be as simple as switching out the distributor. It's a good thing I don't rush into things, because if I did, I would have already bought the matching OBD2 distributor and never had the chance to give this a shot. It was being sold for a good price but eh, I have the patience and don't mind taking my time in looking for other options. OBD1 is my final goal overall. I wonder if a P28 would work with this set up or whether a P72 would be better called for. The reason being is that when I bought another Z6 swap this past weekend to work on, the guy that sold it to me included the P28 with the swap. Needless to say spending a total of $200 dollars on everything seemed like a steal. Hell, I just wanted the head. haha

Man, I'm telling you, I can't express my gratitude enough to you. If I win the lottery, you'll know about my gratitude because it will materialize itself in your drive way. haha People at work keep on asking me about the things I print and read and I just tell them that it's all "classified information from Blanco on Honda Swap." Yes, I do get weird looks, then I explain that it's information someone has been kind enough to point me towards, which I am taking full advantage of. Keep it coming!

 

[Luis998]

Hahaha. Rock on.

Yeah, a chipped P28 will work perfectly.

You know, I could just go for convenience and get an OBD2 to OBD1 harness and be done with it, but then I wouldn't learn anything new and be able to teach someone else something they might be pondering about. We'll see what time and money allows.

I'm so glad I got that P28, as I will be using a P28 in both of my builds. I'm getting the first one installed in my EG tomorrow. It's chipped with a basic map burned to it. I must confess that I have YET to know what VTEC feels like in my car, as I have NEVER had an ECU with VTEC capabilities in it yet. *bows head in shame* It's also another shame that my Z6 doesn't have the proper tranny bolted to it yet. The first swap done to my EG was engine only, meaning that I kept the stock tranny in it. However, I did get a '95 Si tranny for it, which will get installed in the near future. Amen for proper transmissions. haha

*takes a deep breath* This has been quite an exciting and overwhelming learning experience thus far, and I have yet to even crack the tip of the iceberg. I'll tell you what though, both the D and B swaps (I still haven't gotten a tranny for the B, but that's for later on in the thread) look really pretty sitting here. haha The other D I speak of is a Z6 swap that will most likely end up in my EK.

 

[Luis998]

I did my OBD0-OBDI conversion with an ECU jumper harness.

On the engine side there shouldn't be much to it. But building your own jumper harness is a royal pain in the ass.

You know, for ease of things I most like would keep the engines with their respective OBD's. Otherwise you'll have to do OBD conversion for both swaps.

So what you're really saying is to completely disregard your advice, hack up my harness, match it up with an incompatible distributor and pray to God it doesn't blow up, after wiring backwards, and repeat the process on my other engine? Okay, SWEET! I'll do that right now!

Realistically, I'm thinking the OBD2 to OBD1 conversion harness will be the easiest and most economical way to go. That and I have only run into fifty GAZILLION OBD2 distributors as of late, so saying that they're hard to find would be an overstatement.

I'm really considering building up the D and putting it in the EG to keep things simple, then put the B in the EK. The beauty of it all is that I don't have to come to that decision until everything is finished...something that is going to be quite a challenge because of the recent "bump" in the road I have run in to. Then again, looking at it from the perspective of my completion goal and time, everything should work out just fine. I could always sell my ass in the corner, but I just don't think I could deal with the rejection, or the fact that people would pay me to put it back on.

 

[Luis998]

Now that I've decided to go with Skunk2's stage 2 turbo cams, which valves would work best with that cam profile? I'm still debating on what part to order first too. I've thought about ordering the cams first, which I believe these are the ones I want for my build, but am wondering if I should get the valves and valve train first. Suggestions as to what would be, if there truly is, the smartest part to start with?

 

[Luis998]

Valves are pretty much valves and don't need to be geared towards a specific cam profile. Valve springs on the other hand are very important.

*in his best Chinese accent* Oh, so sorry masta. What I should have asked is what we were talking about before, which is over sized valves. That's where you told me I might have issues. How would I be able to tell what I can use with my S2's?

 

[Luis998]

I've never taken those measurements so I honestly don't know. You'll be fine with the stock size for your power goal, though.

Your word is good enough for me. Let me ask you then, at what horsepower would it matter if you had over sized valves? Say if, God help me in the middle of things I felt like achieving 400hp at the wheels, would I worry about over sized valves then or still stick with stock?

I feel like I am going to stick with PortFlow, as far as my valve train goes. Now I have to find a purty set of valves to make the head go vrooom. If the head could really go vrooom that is.

 

[Luis998]

I've been pondering on whether or not to do this for a while, but here goes a parts list of everything I have acquired thus far. Mind you, I never expected to be this far in acquiring pieces for my build so soon. I'll include some prices as well, just to give anyone else looking to start a build like this an idea of what you could "possibly" pay for parts.

B16A2 head off a 99 Si - $350 I might have found a better deal had I waited a little longer, but I did not want to be without a starting point. This purchase was, believe it or not, a cockblock of sorts, as the guy selling the head called me the day I was supposed to come pick it up and told me someone else was coming to pick it up before me. I got in my car, raced over there and yes, the other guy. haha Like I said, I wanted a starting point.

JDM B16 block with Eagle Rods - $400 This purchase I did not expect to get so early in the build. I had been inquiring about a GSR block originally and a B16 block here and there. When the guy that sold me my Z6 called me up and told me that his friend, a reliable source of parts, was selling this block for this price, WITH Eagle Rods, (after posting on here and getting a nod from Blanco as well) I HAD to jump all over it. The rods alone go for $300. The block is complete except for the alternator.

As I just stated, this is what I have collected thus far for my build. The tranny is going to wait, as I would like to start the work on the head first and complete it, unless a good price should pop-up all of a sudden, as was the case with the block. Something did happen which unfortunately put a halt on my acquiring more parts, but as I said at the beginning of the thread, I do have patience and am willing to take a year on this build. After all, I do want to do it right the first time around.

I have to remember to get the head thermal coated whenever I have work done on it. This, I just found out, will help "make more horsepower" as kindly pointed out by Blanco.

 

[Luis998]

Thermal coating works well on pistons, too. And you can even cryo-dip parts, transmission gears are common, for added strength.

You know, I could have sworn that I had seen that done to pistons before. I'd better make like Santa Claus before I go to the machine shop, make a list, check it twice, and figure out what questions I want to ask and what things I would like to get done. Winning half the lottery at this point wouldn't hurt things either. haha

How else would thermal coating the pistons help out, Scott? And cryo-dipping is something I have never heard of. Wow...so much more to learn. I love it. Must...soak up...knowledge...and...not...blow up...engine...all your base are belong to us...

 

[newb]

Blanco, what kind of shops do cryo dipping? Is it typically shops that do other things like ceramic coating?

 

[Luis998]

Blanco, what kind of shops do cryo dipping? Is it typically shops that do other things like ceramic coating?

I'm personally going to ask the machine shop as soon as I have the chance to go. However, any guidance on this would be greatly appreciate it.

 

[newb]

I myself cant give you any accurite guidance on it. The only reason I know about it is because the new 4G63 engine either comes with cryo-dipped rods, or thats the popular choice for big power engine builders as apposed to buying aftermarket internals. I guess what Im tryin to say is the first time I read about it, it was done to rods in a 4G63 and it was either stock or done as apposed to buyin aftermarket (my memory fails me now).

 

[Luis998]

Here's a place that does it; Performance Cryogenics, cryoguys, custom freezing treatment of machine tooling, engine parts, brake rotors, golf clubs, ball bats, rifle and gun barrels increasing thier life and performance.

Now there's food for thought. Should a process like this be done before or after having work done on, say the head, at a machine shop?

 

[newb]

Thats a great link, all kinds of info there. Thanks for posting that up.

 

[Luis998]

Thats a great link, all kinds of info there. Thanks for posting that up.

He's a good guy, Newb. Look up other posts in which he has given advice in. He will not steer you wrong. Just don't piss him off and blow off his advice. haha

 

[Luis998]

Valve my train

PortFlow valve train versus SuperTech. How would the two compare? Price wise they are both close and both offer Nitride coated valves. Which by the way, what is the advantage in having Nitride coated valves?
PortFlow .: Products :.

SuperTech Laskey Racing Online Store

PortFlow's price for the valve train which includes dual springs and titanium retainers is $320.

SuperTech's price for the valve train which includes the same is $310. Shipping is included.

PortFlow's Nitride coated valves are not showing on their site, ironically, which leads me to question if they do make valves?

SuperTech's Nitride coated valves are $250 for all, are available in flat or dish top (something I do not know which to choose) and offer oversized valves at no extra cost. (another thing I'm still confused about is whether or not to get oversized valves) Shipping is included.

PortFlow offers manganse-bronze valve guides for $6.00 each or $96 a set.

SuperTech offers a full set of Bronze valve guides for $95. Shipping is included.

PortFlow offers a full set of new seals for $24.

SuperTech offers all of this, minus the valve guides and seals for $525 with shipping included. All that would be left to purchase here would be the valve guides and seals.

Perhaps I'm looking too "deep" into all of this, but I do want to do this right the first time and not end up shelling out money for crap...something that from what I have read and been taught, PortFlow is not. If anyone knows anything about SuperTech, please feel free to share. I'm currently looking through different posts, seeing what kind of valve trains people have had success with and which ones, quite frankly, have bitten the dust. Skunk2's valve train is definitely out of the picture.

I pondered hard today as to what my next purchase should be, and I decided that it should be the valve train. Why? It would be like building from the inside out. I take my head to the shop, have it dismantled, port and polished, have the valve guides installed, seals...I can't forget to get new seals, valves, five angle valve job, retainers and springs, then finish off with the cams.

Whew! For a guy that barely has a brain, that sure did take a lot out of me. haha Feel free to chime in and let me know if anyone else would go about this a different way and why. Thanks again all.

By the way Scott, if you're around, you said before that guys have had success in running Omni Power in their D-series. What about B-series? Have you or anyone else heard about Omni Power in a B?

God bless you all for helping me out. *grins*