B18B build up

We may earn a small commission from affiliate links and paid advertisements. Terms

posol

RETIRED
if you don't have to bore, don't...especially boosting the stock sleeves. a nice quick hone job to clean it up is all that is necessary. the power gain from .020 vs the holding potential of the stock sleeve is a push/shove relationship.

you can run the turbo cams on an na motor- they have a good amount of lift, but just don't have the high-revving duration that all motor cams do- which is fine, its an ls. you aren't going to make power above 7000 anyway. buying 2 cams is a waste of time and cash IMO.

GSR and ITR's have the same 4.40 final. only the JDM itr FDR is larger at 4.785. my thought is, just run a gsr. its plenty, and 5th won't kill you.
tranny work is a bitch- and far from cheap. you're looking at a $3000 tranny the way you describe it.
 
my first thought was with B, don't bother on the overbore. If your not sleeving the block, your only making the build more dangerous, and it's benefit is negligable compared to what you could get from a little more boost on a stronger cylinder.

My suggestion would be to stick with a gsr tranny, the 5th isn't too bad. It's the ITR tranny which really works better with the ls 5th, especially for a daily driver. With the money you can save by having just a gsr (and a quaife if you really, really want it), and only buying one set of cams, you could spend the 1k and have the block iron sleeved. It's overkill for 300hp, but then again you get the peace of mind that you will never put a hole in your block. I'd even go so far as to say combined with the internals that you have listed, at 300hp you would probably never have to worry about blowing the engine under 7,000rpm.
 
Block bored 20 over and honed - I say thats fine, just look into block posting
Wiseco 9.3:1 pistons - Why not go higher? 10:1 is going to give you more off boost power. Not to mention the increase in power will create more exhaust gases, and more exhaust gases means quicker spool time

Crower Stage 2 turbo cams
Crower valve train

Wouldn't bother on these. I have yet to see a car make worthwhile gains on the crower turbo cams unless they were pushing stupid amounts of boost. Oddly enough I have seen worthwhile gains with the 403's on the nonvtecs and turbo.

Obviously you would want to dial out some of the overlap to keep the pressure ratio where you want it.
 
WILD BILL was built all motor.

jdm p30 pistons yielding about 11:1, portflow re-worked head, crower 403's, and put just under 150 whp untuned, un cam geared, on a stock ls ecu.

you don't want to go that route if you're boosting.
 
according to titan motorsports <i was there yeterday talkin to em about my car and their drag civic> they've seen a stock LS hold 23psi before "having" to be touched. tuning, they said, is the key. their car is a 2L GSR with somethin like 625whp and thats not at full boost and its 9:1 CR. perhaps thats all "secret" but i dont think it is. somewhere on this site, pissedoffsol posted what parts have to be upgraded at what power levels. or should be. also, someone mentioned high CR, and more power off boost. higher CR means more delicate tuning in comparison to lower CR.

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong guys.
 
You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo style engine. One of my friends built his block with plans for 600whp, and he made 170hp/140lbft at the wheels before boost.

The setup:

84mm Golden Eagle sleeve in a B20 block
89mm stroke
B16A head
9.3:1 compression
Web cams
Endyn P&P head
Hondata S200 for tuning

You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo build as long as you tune it properly.
 
Originally posted by StyleTEG@Jun 17 2004, 01:22 PM
Wiseco 9.3:1 pistons - Why not go higher? 10:1 is going to give you more off boost power. Not to mention the increase in power will create more exhaust gases, and more exhaust gases means quicker spool time

I would suggest a CR below 10, considering your probably going to be in boost more often than not, especially with the turbo you have picked out. It's only going to make your life easier in the long run. Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder. I don't know where you heard that. Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".


I would also suggest leaning on the side of saftey, and not the side of "I heard a stock LS block can handle xx psi or xxx hp." Usually the people who make those cars have deep pockets and an alternate vehicle :)

Tuning is the key though. Have it tuned properly once, and it will be the best thing you ever did for the lifespan (and quality) of the build.
 
Originally posted by Blanco+Jun 17 2004, 04:39 PM-->
@Jun 17 2004, 04:18 PM
according to titan motorsports <i was there yeterday talkin to em about my car and their drag civic> they've seen a stock LS hold 23psi before "having" to be touched. tuning, they said, is the key. their car is a 2L GSR with somethin like 625whp and thats not at full boost and its 9:1 CR. perhaps thats all "secret" but i dont think it is. somewhere on this site, pissedoffsol posted what parts have to be upgraded at what power levels. or should be. also, someone mentioned high CR, and more power off boost. higher CR means more delicate tuning in comparison to lower CR.

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong guys.

Yeah, I know it should be able to hold 300hp stock. Not only would it be nice to have a zero miles engine and the experience, I also want more power from the motor off and pre boost. I chose the GT28RS because it fits my power goal and spools really fast, so off boost isn't really a concern...once it's boosted. If I can get close to 180bhp, pre-boost, I'll be happy and won't have to boost as high when I get there.

Keep it coming guys, this is great. :)

Hey Blanco.

I think that turbo might be too small for your goals. Its really small. Go to a T3/4E with a small A/R stage 3, it will spool fast too. and make a grip more horsepower.

:)

Jeff
 
:concur: btw, i wasn't claiming anything about the LS from me, that just what titan motorsports told me. and the prior statement about deep pockets is very very true. you've probably seen their crazy ass supra. good luck man.
 
Originally posted by liquid00meth@Jun 17 2004, 09:40 PM
I would suggest a CR below 10, considering your probably going to be in boost more often than not, especially with the turbo you have picked out. It's only going to make your life easier in the long run.

The old "you need low CR for boost" is wrong and played out.

There is an article here on effective compression, its worth reading.

Moderate CR is VERY effective for boost. If you can achieve the same effective compression with a higher CR and less boost, you will have more off boost power. The only drawback is its harder to tune. If you have a good tuner in your area, you are set.

Unless you are planning on running a bar, don't lower the compression. Its not worth it. There are people running on boost on stock ITR slugs with out trouble.

Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder. I don't know where you heard that. Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".


If you burn more of the air/fuel mix is it NOT going to create more exhaust? :blink:

Not to mention a higher CR pistons creates a stronger vacuum under the intake stroke, so more air is drawn into the cylinders (ie: increases volumetric efficiency).

I can go into this further if needed, but I shouldn't have too .
 
A GT28RS will certainly give you enough airflow for 300WHP. I personally would not want a turbo that spooled that fast. A slighltly larger turbo like a .63AR T3/T4, Holset HY35, etc. would probably make the car a little more streetable in addition to giving you more room to grow.

I have a gutted 91 CRX HF w/ B18B, SSAC Manifold, 50trim .48AR T3 from a Saab, Starion IC, pushing 7psi. Stock motor, budget turbo setup. Nothing special. Turbo spools fast... Almost too fast. First, second are part throttle gears. Doing a 5mph roll -> pull in 3rd gear will make it to about 35-40mph and then break the tires loose. Doing a pull in 4th gear has traction until the head really starts flowing 4400-4500 RPMish. Have Dunlop Sport SP4000 205/50/R15 on 15x7 Rotas. Have somewhat proper suspension (GCs + AGXs. AGX full still rear, one notch down front) and a ST rear bar, in the middle of its adjustment range. The car is a fucking annoyance to drive with the least bit of water on the road. I wouldn't even think about starting it in ice or snow.

Point being: 4G chassis are relatively light. You will have nasty nasty wheelspin with a small, fast spooling turbo. A larger turbo (or at least one with a higher A/R) will really help keep your car from being a pain in the ass to drive. The instant boost of a small turbo can be a lot of fun, but it also makes the car incredibly touchy. I'm not sure I like it. I'll find out when my Holset HY35, ported head, RM L21 cams, RM rods and CP pistons go in. I'm going to compare the rebuilt motor with the T3 to the rebuilt motor with the HY35...
 
Look at compressor maps.

Guessing almost never yeilds the best setup or the best results.
 
Originally posted by StyleTEG@Jun 17 2004, 11:47 PM
The old "you need low CR for boost" is wrong and played out.

There is an article here on effective compression, its worth reading.
Moderate CR is VERY effective for boost. If you can achieve the same effective compression with a higher CR and less boost, you will have more off boost power. The only drawback is its harder to tune. If you have a good tuner in your area, you are set.
Unless you are planning on running a bar, don't lower the compression. Its not worth it. There are people running on boost on stock ITR slugs with out trouble.


Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder.  I don't know where you heard that.  Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".


If you burn more of the air/fuel mix is it NOT going to create more exhaust? :blink:

Not to mention a higher CR pistons creates a stronger vacuum under the intake stroke, so more air is drawn into the cylinders (ie: increases volumetric efficiency).

I can go into this further if needed, but I shouldn't have too .

the point was raising your C:R doesn't "add any air/fuel mix". It just makes better use of what is already there. And thanks, I'm familiar with compression article. The C:R and vaccum are hardly related. A higher C:R yields a higher differential pressure, but the cylinder volume is the same. Essentially the intake charge will come in "faster" but still end up with the same volume.

In any case, the benefits of running a high(er) C:R in a boosted car are far outweighed by the benefits of even adding 1psi of boost (from most any turbo).
 
Originally posted by liquid00meth@Jun 18 2004, 11:37 AM
the point was raising your C:R doesn't "add any air/fuel mix". It just makes better use of what is already there. And thanks, I'm familiar with compression article. The C:R and vaccum are hardly related. A higher C:R yields a higher differential pressure, but the cylinder volume is the same. Essentially the intake charge will come in "faster" but still end up with the same volume.

In any case, the benefits of running a high(er) C:R in a boosted car are far outweighed by the benefits of even adding 1psi of boost (from most any turbo).

Actually off boost it does. Because of the increase in vacuum.

Read up on volumetric effeciency, off boost you rarely reach 100% volumetric effeciency. And because of a less than perfect volumetric effeciency the cylinders are rarely or never filled to their entire volume.

No more air/fuel mix is added, but if you have a more complete burn there is more byproduct. In this case, exhaust gases. Unburnt fuel displaces exhaust, and unburnt fuel does not spin the turbine.

CR and vacuum are very related. What motion do you think draws in the intake charge when the valve is open? :blink:

Low Comp Scenario:

V1 = volume above the piston at TDC = 41.6
V2 = volume above the piston a certain point after TDC say = 30 + 41.6

so (V2-V1)/V1 = (30 + 41.6 - 41.6)/41.6 = 72%

Meaning the volume above TDC increased 72%.


Hi Comp Scenario:

V1 = volume above the piston at TDC = 32
V2 = volume above the piston a certain point after TDC say = 30 + 32
so (V2-V1)/V1 = (30 + 32 - 32)/32 = 94%

Meaning the volume above TDC increased 94%.

I have to correct myself again, since n = atoms would be less at TDC in the high compression scenario v. the low compression scenario (smaller volume, same pressure, same Temp implies less atoms).

See the difference in %vol change. Given the ideal gas law the pressure would drop in direct proportion and thus cause flow. I mentioned graphing it since the further away you are from TDC the less dramatic the difference.

This is why high CR motors can tolerate bigger cams, because the motor will start pulling air in harder and earlier in the intake and conversely push harder and later on the exhaust stroke. This allows you to run bigger cams with more overlap (more lift near TDC).

Yep yep. On high compression motors the volume goes from being very small to large quicker. And guess what wants to fill the void.

Another term that is used is called "signal". Higher CR motors create a stronger sigal.


The benifits I listed outweight 1psi. :p

Its time ot think outside the box?
 
you undoubtedly never reach 100% volumetric efficiency outside of boost, because that would basically mean there is no restriction to airflow, and a perfect charge at atmospheric pressure was created.

But aside from that, if in fact a "better" vaccum is created (which I'm still debating) you would increase the volumetric efficiency by hopefully filling the cylinder a bit better. Woopdee do. You get maybe 15% more volumetric efficiency, and a tuning headache, as opposed to running a turbo, which can easily put you over 200% atmospheric VE. But with a turbo, it's not just a measurement with psi, because you have to consider the cfm the turbo is pushing etc. but that is beside the point.

Also, it isn't the "compression ratio" that dictates how much fuel gets drawn in. It's the combustion chamber volume. The compression ratio isn't a motion. It's a ratio. lol. The faster the volume changes, the higher the differential pressure, and the higher the vaccum. I guess thats where your argument is coming from.

I'll give you that the vaccum is increased somewhat, but the reason I argued the point in the first place is because the gain is miniscule compared to what stands to be gained from boost. In an n/a setup, yes, every little bit counts. And a higher C:R works better with high lift cams, portflowed parts, etc. So I'd be all for the compression ratio in my n/a motor. But it's not an n/a motor. It's a boosted motor, and the headache of a tempermental motor that is extremely sensitive to hot weather, and everything else, is not worth 10hp when 1000RPM down the road the engine gets force fed way over 100% atmospheric VE anyways.
 
Originally posted by Blanco@Jun 17 2004, 04:22 PM
Right on. I remembered that it was high compression all motor, just not what the setup or power was. That was, what, about 180bhp? Just looking so see what a "good" BHP might be on this engine before I start building. Just throwing some numbers around, I'm going to be looking at about 160-170bhp on my setup before boost? For the price, it seems that a GSR might be the way to go, but it won't have the advantage of being rebuilt like the LS.

going from whp to bhp is a marginal guess at best. I won't speculate.

if sub 300 is your goal- get a gsr, and leave it stock, and boost it.

you want that tranny anyway... so thats 650-800 on top of the LS anyway.
 
Originally posted by nismogod@Jun 18 2004, 12:25 AM
:concur: btw, i wasn't claiming anything about the LS from me, that just what titan motorsports told me. and the prior statement about deep pockets is very very true. you've probably seen their crazy ass supra. good luck man.

sure, it CAN be built, and sure it can be dynoed, but anythign over 350 whp is pushing the stock sleeve, and its not a matter of IF it will crack, but WHEN will it crack
 
But aside from that, if in fact a "better" vaccum is created (which I'm still debating) you would increase the volumetric efficiency by hopefully filling the cylinder a bit better. Woopdee do. You get maybe 15% more volumetric efficiency, and a tuning headache, as opposed to running a turbo, which can easily put you over 200% atmospheric VE. But with a turbo, it's not just a measurement with psi, because you have to consider the cfm the turbo is pushing etc. but that is beside the point.


lol 15%, you know that most vtec heads are close to 90% stock right? :|

The idea is that with more air, more fuel, and a more complete burn it will result in more low end power, and a quicker spool time.

If you can reach the same effective compression ratio, there is no downside besides finding a qualified tuner. Which you should have in the first place.

Also, it isn't the "compression ratio" that dictates how much fuel gets drawn in. It's the combustion chamber volume. The compression ratio isn't a motion. It's a ratio. lol.


Its the piston traveling downward that creates the vacuum. What is a major player in how that motion creates vacuum? Volume above the piston. And what effects volume above the piston? How much compression you are running.

Its all connected, its one system.

I'll give you that the vaccum is increased somewhat, but the reason I argued the point in the first place is because the gain is miniscule compared to what stands to be gained from boost.


Have any proof, formulas, or real world examples. Or just your guess? :p

Its funny you change your tune now, originally saying that exhaust gas isn't increased as compression increases. Would you say that exhaust DOESN'T increase as hp does? :p

Its proven time and time again that you can safely run moderate compression, and it is better for performance. Period. Sometimes you have to realize there is always more to learn.

You do realize that lots of aftermarket manufactures sell higher compression pistons than stock for stock turboed cars right?
 
to back up what Styles is saying...

think of the all motor hondas...

LOUD as fuck.

why? because they are moving MAD air out the exhaust, and most are in the 13+ range of compression.
 
Back
Top