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B18B build up

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by pissedoffsol, Jun 17, 2004.

  1. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    if you don't have to bore, don't...especially boosting the stock sleeves. a nice quick hone job to clean it up is all that is necessary. the power gain from .020 vs the holding potential of the stock sleeve is a push/shove relationship.

    you can run the turbo cams on an na motor- they have a good amount of lift, but just don't have the high-revving duration that all motor cams do- which is fine, its an ls. you aren't going to make power above 7000 anyway. buying 2 cams is a waste of time and cash IMO.

    GSR and ITR's have the same 4.40 final. only the JDM itr FDR is larger at 4.785. my thought is, just run a gsr. its plenty, and 5th won't kill you.
    tranny work is a bitch- and far from cheap. you're looking at a $3000 tranny the way you describe it.
     
  2. liquid00meth

    liquid00meth Senior Member

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    my first thought was with B, don't bother on the overbore. If your not sleeving the block, your only making the build more dangerous, and it's benefit is negligable compared to what you could get from a little more boost on a stronger cylinder.

    My suggestion would be to stick with a gsr tranny, the 5th isn't too bad. It's the ITR tranny which really works better with the ls 5th, especially for a daily driver. With the money you can save by having just a gsr (and a quaife if you really, really want it), and only buying one set of cams, you could spend the 1k and have the block iron sleeved. It's overkill for 300hp, but then again you get the peace of mind that you will never put a hole in your block. I'd even go so far as to say combined with the internals that you have listed, at 300hp you would probably never have to worry about blowing the engine under 7,000rpm.
     
  3. StyleTEG

    StyleTEG Senior Member

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    Block bored 20 over and honed - I say thats fine, just look into block posting
    Wiseco 9.3:1 pistons - Why not go higher? 10:1 is going to give you more off boost power. Not to mention the increase in power will create more exhaust gases, and more exhaust gases means quicker spool time

    Crower Stage 2 turbo cams
    Crower valve train

    Wouldn't bother on these. I have yet to see a car make worthwhile gains on the crower turbo cams unless they were pushing stupid amounts of boost. Oddly enough I have seen worthwhile gains with the 403's on the nonvtecs and turbo.

    Obviously you would want to dial out some of the overlap to keep the pressure ratio where you want it.
     
  4. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    WILD BILL was built all motor.

    jdm p30 pistons yielding about 11:1, portflow re-worked head, crower 403's, and put just under 150 whp untuned, un cam geared, on a stock ls ecu.

    you don't want to go that route if you're boosting.
     
  5. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    according to titan motorsports <i was there yeterday talkin to em about my car and their drag civic> they've seen a stock LS hold 23psi before "having" to be touched. tuning, they said, is the key. their car is a 2L GSR with somethin like 625whp and thats not at full boost and its 9:1 CR. perhaps thats all "secret" but i dont think it is. somewhere on this site, pissedoffsol posted what parts have to be upgraded at what power levels. or should be. also, someone mentioned high CR, and more power off boost. higher CR means more delicate tuning in comparison to lower CR.

    feel free to correct me if i'm wrong guys.
     
  6. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo style engine. One of my friends built his block with plans for 600whp, and he made 170hp/140lbft at the wheels before boost.

    The setup:

    84mm Golden Eagle sleeve in a B20 block
    89mm stroke
    B16A head
    9.3:1 compression
    Web cams
    Endyn P&P head
    Hondata S200 for tuning

    You can make pretty good power off boost on a turbo build as long as you tune it properly.
     
  7. liquid00meth

    liquid00meth Senior Member

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    I would suggest a CR below 10, considering your probably going to be in boost more often than not, especially with the turbo you have picked out. It's only going to make your life easier in the long run. Also, your compression ratio has nothing to do with how much gas comes out of the cylinder. I don't know where you heard that. Compression ratio adds power by aiding combustion "efficiency".


    I would also suggest leaning on the side of saftey, and not the side of "I heard a stock LS block can handle xx psi or xxx hp." Usually the people who make those cars have deep pockets and an alternate vehicle :)

    Tuning is the key though. Have it tuned properly once, and it will be the best thing you ever did for the lifespan (and quality) of the build.
     
  8. Import Builders

    Import Builders Senior Member

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    Hey Blanco.

    I think that turbo might be too small for your goals. Its really small. Go to a T3/4E with a small A/R stage 3, it will spool fast too. and make a grip more horsepower.

    :)

    Jeff
     
  9. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    :concur: btw, i wasn't claiming anything about the LS from me, that just what titan motorsports told me. and the prior statement about deep pockets is very very true. you've probably seen their crazy ass supra. good luck man.
     
  10. StyleTEG

    StyleTEG Senior Member

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    The old "you need low CR for boost" is wrong and played out.

    There is an article here on effective compression, its worth reading.

    Moderate CR is VERY effective for boost. If you can achieve the same effective compression with a higher CR and less boost, you will have more off boost power. The only drawback is its harder to tune. If you have a good tuner in your area, you are set.

    Unless you are planning on running a bar, don't lower the compression. Its not worth it. There are people running on boost on stock ITR slugs with out trouble.



    If you burn more of the air/fuel mix is it NOT going to create more exhaust? :blink:

    Not to mention a higher CR pistons creates a stronger vacuum under the intake stroke, so more air is drawn into the cylinders (ie: increases volumetric efficiency).

    I can go into this further if needed, but I shouldn't have too .
     
  11. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    He definitely has pistons for an LS block. :)
     
  12. radnulb

    radnulb Senior Member

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    A GT28RS will certainly give you enough airflow for 300WHP. I personally would not want a turbo that spooled that fast. A slighltly larger turbo like a .63AR T3/T4, Holset HY35, etc. would probably make the car a little more streetable in addition to giving you more room to grow.

    I have a gutted 91 CRX HF w/ B18B, SSAC Manifold, 50trim .48AR T3 from a Saab, Starion IC, pushing 7psi. Stock motor, budget turbo setup. Nothing special. Turbo spools fast... Almost too fast. First, second are part throttle gears. Doing a 5mph roll -> pull in 3rd gear will make it to about 35-40mph and then break the tires loose. Doing a pull in 4th gear has traction until the head really starts flowing 4400-4500 RPMish. Have Dunlop Sport SP4000 205/50/R15 on 15x7 Rotas. Have somewhat proper suspension (GCs + AGXs. AGX full still rear, one notch down front) and a ST rear bar, in the middle of its adjustment range. The car is a fucking annoyance to drive with the least bit of water on the road. I wouldn't even think about starting it in ice or snow.

    Point being: 4G chassis are relatively light. You will have nasty nasty wheelspin with a small, fast spooling turbo. A larger turbo (or at least one with a higher A/R) will really help keep your car from being a pain in the ass to drive. The instant boost of a small turbo can be a lot of fun, but it also makes the car incredibly touchy. I'm not sure I like it. I'll find out when my Holset HY35, ported head, RM L21 cams, RM rods and CP pistons go in. I'm going to compare the rebuilt motor with the T3 to the rebuilt motor with the HY35...
     
  13. StyleTEG

    StyleTEG Senior Member

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    Look at compressor maps.

    Guessing almost never yeilds the best setup or the best results.
     
  14. liquid00meth

    liquid00meth Senior Member

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    the point was raising your C:R doesn't "add any air/fuel mix". It just makes better use of what is already there. And thanks, I'm familiar with compression article. The C:R and vaccum are hardly related. A higher C:R yields a higher differential pressure, but the cylinder volume is the same. Essentially the intake charge will come in "faster" but still end up with the same volume.

    In any case, the benefits of running a high(er) C:R in a boosted car are far outweighed by the benefits of even adding 1psi of boost (from most any turbo).
     
  15. StyleTEG

    StyleTEG Senior Member

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    Actually off boost it does. Because of the increase in vacuum.

    Read up on volumetric effeciency, off boost you rarely reach 100% volumetric effeciency. And because of a less than perfect volumetric effeciency the cylinders are rarely or never filled to their entire volume.

    No more air/fuel mix is added, but if you have a more complete burn there is more byproduct. In this case, exhaust gases. Unburnt fuel displaces exhaust, and unburnt fuel does not spin the turbine.

    CR and vacuum are very related. What motion do you think draws in the intake charge when the valve is open? :blink:



    The benifits I listed outweight 1psi. :p

    Its time ot think outside the box?
     
  16. liquid00meth

    liquid00meth Senior Member

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    you undoubtedly never reach 100% volumetric efficiency outside of boost, because that would basically mean there is no restriction to airflow, and a perfect charge at atmospheric pressure was created.

    But aside from that, if in fact a "better" vaccum is created (which I'm still debating) you would increase the volumetric efficiency by hopefully filling the cylinder a bit better. Woopdee do. You get maybe 15% more volumetric efficiency, and a tuning headache, as opposed to running a turbo, which can easily put you over 200% atmospheric VE. But with a turbo, it's not just a measurement with psi, because you have to consider the cfm the turbo is pushing etc. but that is beside the point.

    Also, it isn't the "compression ratio" that dictates how much fuel gets drawn in. It's the combustion chamber volume. The compression ratio isn't a motion. It's a ratio. lol. The faster the volume changes, the higher the differential pressure, and the higher the vaccum. I guess thats where your argument is coming from.

    I'll give you that the vaccum is increased somewhat, but the reason I argued the point in the first place is because the gain is miniscule compared to what stands to be gained from boost. In an n/a setup, yes, every little bit counts. And a higher C:R works better with high lift cams, portflowed parts, etc. So I'd be all for the compression ratio in my n/a motor. But it's not an n/a motor. It's a boosted motor, and the headache of a tempermental motor that is extremely sensitive to hot weather, and everything else, is not worth 10hp when 1000RPM down the road the engine gets force fed way over 100% atmospheric VE anyways.
     
  17. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    going from whp to bhp is a marginal guess at best. I won't speculate.

    if sub 300 is your goal- get a gsr, and leave it stock, and boost it.

    you want that tranny anyway... so thats 650-800 on top of the LS anyway.
     
  18. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    sure, it CAN be built, and sure it can be dynoed, but anythign over 350 whp is pushing the stock sleeve, and its not a matter of IF it will crack, but WHEN will it crack
     
  19. StyleTEG

    StyleTEG Senior Member

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    lol 15%, you know that most vtec heads are close to 90% stock right? :|

    The idea is that with more air, more fuel, and a more complete burn it will result in more low end power, and a quicker spool time.

    If you can reach the same effective compression ratio, there is no downside besides finding a qualified tuner. Which you should have in the first place.



    Its the piston traveling downward that creates the vacuum. What is a major player in how that motion creates vacuum? Volume above the piston. And what effects volume above the piston? How much compression you are running.

    Its all connected, its one system.



    Have any proof, formulas, or real world examples. Or just your guess? :p

    Its funny you change your tune now, originally saying that exhaust gas isn't increased as compression increases. Would you say that exhaust DOESN'T increase as hp does? :p

    Its proven time and time again that you can safely run moderate compression, and it is better for performance. Period. Sometimes you have to realize there is always more to learn.

    You do realize that lots of aftermarket manufactures sell higher compression pistons than stock for stock turboed cars right?
     
  20. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    to back up what Styles is saying...

    think of the all motor hondas...

    LOUD as fuck.

    why? because they are moving MAD air out the exhaust, and most are in the 13+ range of compression.
     
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