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Been away from the Honda camp, need tech info on new build.

Discussion in 'Civic and del Sol - EG and EK' started by MisterMister, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    Whats going on guys.

    Let me give you a little background on my self. I had been pretty into the Honda scene for a good 10 years. Starting out with a Del Sol with BPU upgrades (sold), and ending up with a pretty tricked out 00' Civic Si coupe (stolen).

    I have since moved on to RWD cars, getting an S13 240 and a '91 SW21 Toyota MR2. I am now looking at getting back into the Honda scene after doing some soul searching and research. I really did love my Si to death and have come to further love that car (even after it's loss), making the decision even easier.

    Now, all that being said, I am wrestling with the idea of putting together a hatch, as so many before have done. I always wanted a hatch, even when I was building my Si coupe due to its modability and its light weight. Not to mention the fact that I think these are some of the better looking Hondas to come out in the 90s.

    After some thought, I have almost made up my mind to build an EG hatch. The recent article in SS about the K20 powered JDM sweet EG hatch have even further blown my thoughts in the direction.

    Now, I was thinking of going with the tried and true LS-VTEC turbo build, but now I am not so sure. The K series swaps are looking better and better, and their power production is such that I might not even bother going FI. However, this is where it gets tricky.

    I am a B series guy. Always have been. Thus, I know jack squat about the newer K series swaps other then the fact that they came some decent power in NA builds and that there are a myriad of swap options available for all sorts of Honda chassis.

    This is where you come in. I am thinking of a K24 swap due to the better drivability and increased torque, but that raises further questions such as available aftermarket parts, maximum potential, and swapability. Right now, I am looking for a straight swap without ant custom fabrication. If that means going with a premade engine mount kit, so be it, but I would rather not have to do any firewall work or the like, nor do I want to loose things such as AC and power steering.

    Furthermore, I am looking to keep at or near the stock curb weight. No gutting the chassis. No massive diet plans. I like my hearing and am not too keen on removing all of the sound deadening material. That being said, I dont want a simple 14 second car. If this is going to ba an NA build, I want this thing to be at least deep into the 13s, all while keeping its composure and drivability on the street and at the auto-x.

    Anyway, the bottom line is this:

    I am looking for;

    Daily drivability
    Modability
    At least mid 13 second ETs
    Balance for competitive auto-x and road race events

    With all that in mind, I welcome your comments and advice. Any and all will be welcome. Furthermore, I thank you in advance for anything you may offer.

    -Joe

    Edit: If anyone cares, here is my old ride:

    B18C5 long block
    B16A2 head
    SS valves
    Ti retainers & springs
    RC 370cc injectors
    JDM ITR header
    Password JDM J's Racing style carbon fiber intake
    Omni Power 2.5" test pipe
    RS*R EX-Mag cat-back exhaust
    Exedy full face clutch
    ACT 12lb street-lite flywheel
    Energy Suspension motor mount inserts
    Energy Suspension shifter bushings
    B&M S bend stainless steel short shifter
    JDM CTR shifter boot
    JDM Accord-R 5spd billet shifter knob
    AEM 12" slotted front rotors, 11" rear rotors
    BF Goodridge stainless steel braided brake lines
    Hawk HPS brake pads
    Motoul RBF600 brake fluid
    KYB AGX shocks/struts
    Skunkworks GS-R coilovers (original, not Skunk 2)
    SRR rear lower tie bar
    Walboro 190lph fuel pump
    Rota Circuit 8 16" rims (gunmetal)
    Hankook Ventus RS2 tires (215-45-16)
    Uberdata chipped P28 ECU (chrome)
    Skunk 2 Stage 2 cams
    Skunk 2 cam gears
    Spoon Sports 2 layer HG
    milled head (.30mm)
    Skunk 2 intake manifold
    Hondata intake manifold polyurethane gasket
    BBK 65mm port matched TB
    Dyno tuned by Bubba @ Do-It-Dyno

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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2008
  2. BrutalB83

    BrutalB83 Brutal Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Go to Hasport's website. They have the mounts you'll need and you can look at the install instructions right online. FYI though, you do have to do a bit of fabrication to make the shifter work, but you won't need to hack into the firewall...
     
  3. t3t4delsol

    t3t4delsol New Member

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  4. 95b16coupe

    95b16coupe New Member

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    k24 will be too heavy.

    my thoughts, eg hatch with itr swap. i/h/e and solid tune. 200whp with lsd and good tires will kill on a road course/autox
     
  5. BrutalB83

    BrutalB83 Brutal Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Is it really that much heavier then a K20?
     
  6. 95b16coupe

    95b16coupe New Member

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    in a perfect world we would have a car with 50/50 balance and 300 hp n/a hp.

    i could build a kickass dd/autox/road car for about $6k. a k-series will kill any budget. budget aside, i would take a K.
     
  7. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    I'm looking at spending ~ 10-11K on the basic build, so I don't think a K series swap will be out of the question as far as budget is concerned. I am also looking at the K series due to the NA power production and increased torque vs the B series engines. Yes, a B18C5 will be pretty awesome for this build (my last Honda engine made quite a bit more at the wheels then a stock one), but again, I am going after an all motor set up, and thus require as much power and tq. as I can get.

    Once more, this is also why I was considering a K24. Now, does anyone know the weight difference off hand between the K20 and K24? as was posted before, is this really that big of a weight difference? On that note, I cant really see a K24 weighing THAT much more then, say, a H22A.

    Speaking of the H series motors, what is the hp/tq difference between that and a K20, given that both engines receive I/H/E, cams, stand alone, and proper dyno tune (among other things)? Also, wont an H22 weigh more then a K20?
     
  8. 99sidude

    99sidude Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Get your eg hatch. Swap in a b20-vtec beefed up with arp hardware. Get a b16/gsr/or itr trans with a lsd. Get a Jackson Racing s/c kit and do the mid level boost setup (8-9 psi). Get a nice header and tune it the right way (i.e. NO fmu).

    I'm a little biased towards this because its almost what I have:D Check out my build thread in my sig...

    -Enjoy instant low end power - (make stock gsr max torque at 2500 rpms)
    -12 second 1/4 mile times on street tires - (I ran a 13.4 with stock header, open diff, and a shitty tune)
    -auto-x monster - No lag, lots of torque = win
    -solid reliability - Fewer parts than turbo, and is manufactured by Eaton (same blower as Cobalt ss)
    -Daily Drivability - get mid 30's highway mpg, enjoy a smooth, linear poweband. I've DD'd mine for over a year and 12k miles with zero issues.

    It won't make as much power as a turbo'd car with the same engine; but how much power do you really need in a Fwd car?
     
  9. evin

    evin New Member

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    I would go k and you can do it for under 10k. I just did a k20a2 swap in my 98 hatch for the same price as a itr b swap. As for the motor it all depends on if you want to go forced induction or not, If turboed I would go k24 if N/A k20. I would say the k20a2 it a good place to start becouse there ease to find in a compleat swap and cheep. If you want to get a complete motor, trany, ecu, shifter cables, shifter box, and all else attached to the motor and trany look on ebay I got my swap for $3200 shipped and there on there all the time. If you decide to go k24 later on you can always get a k24 dressed on craigslist or ebay for $800 or less and all you would need to swap is the extra bracket from hasport.


    A k swap is not as complicated or as expecive as every one makes it seem. I did my swap on my own and didnt do any welding or drilling. As for the motor mounts I went with hasport and for the shifter kit I went with the karcepts shifter kit, I read some where that you can use a 97 accord shifter and you wont have to do any cutting oround the shifter like you would if you used the karcepts kit.To addapt all the wires I went with the hasport subharness worth the $ cuz you save a lot of time and frustration, unless you like spending 7 hours pulling and pluging and testing wires. You will need k pro, If you dont have k pro all the lights and shit on the dash will come on and k pro or the aem ecu is the only way to adapt the k series to the older car. you will also need a fuel presure regulator and fuel rail the k motor needs a constantly regulated pressure going threw the fuel rail becouse of vct ( link to further explain below). If you want to keep the stock fuel rail you can put the oem rsx/tsx/ect fuel pump in the civic it will regulate it. You will also need hybrid headers I went with dc sport hybrid headers becouse they proform and there only $300 on ebay. You will read on alot of sights that you cant have power stering becouse the pump wont clear the hood dont listen to them. I have power streaing all you have to do is cut one of the hood braces it wont damage anything or mess anything up. Also you will need to adapt the stock civic hose to the rsx hose. As for axels you can spend a ton of $ with drivshaft shop or hasport I went with a new compant on ebay they sell custom swap axles that are 20% stronger then stock for $100.

    swap parts I had to buy

    rsx power stearing hose
    rsx radiator hose and radiator
    fuel presure regulator
    fuel rail
    k to civic swap axeles
    hasport subharness
    karcepts shifter kit
    k pro
    you will probebly need to buy a hybrid intake as well but if a stock rsx intake comes with your swap it will clear the hood.

    vct demo
    2009 Honda CR-V - Features - 166-hp, 2.4-Liter, 16-Valve DOHC i-VTEC<sup>®</sup> 4-Cylinder Engine

    I think thats it if you go k and have questions pm me.
     
  10. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    You know, its funny you say this. I was actually thinking of doing a USDM B18C5 engine/transmission swap and adding a JRSC. Now, with a JRSC, IDK what the reasoning would be to get aftermarket internals? Its not like I would be pushing anything < 8-9PSI, and IIRC, the JRSC doesnt operate unless at or near WOT? BEsides, I was probably going to buy a brand new longblock and transmission from a local dealer. I got the same B18C5 block, brand new, from this guy for a little over $2200 ($2222.95 to be exact). This will insure 100% reliability, plus I like new shit (see pics below)...

    That being said, I would think that a stock B18C5, with perhaps a thicker HG &/or block guard would be more then capable of taking a JRSC @ 9PSI on a DD basis, especially since the supercharging unit was initially designed to run on completely stock motors, correct?

    Also, I am wondering about clearing the engine bay with the JRSC unit on a B18C swap. Will everything clear including the PS and AC? Or, like with the K20 swap, would I need to modify the hood/engine bay?

    Also, correct me if I am wrong, but it would seem that doing a similar swap on an EG as I did in my EM1, would bemuch less complicated then a K series swap in the same chassis?

    Last but not least, what trim level hatch should I look for? Like I said, I still want AC/PS/power windows & locks, however I dont want something super heavy. I am assuming this means an Si hatch is out of the question since thats the heaviest of the EG hatches? Of course, if there are major suspension differences or anything else which may help performance or limit spending between the trim levels, please let me know. And on that note, whats the weight difference between the 92-95 hatches and the 96+ hatches (not counting the pig-ass EP3 of course).

    Thanks again,

    -Joe

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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  11. 95b16coupe

    95b16coupe New Member

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    ^^^^not a bad way to spend $10,000....:ph34r:
     
  12. newb

    newb phresh VIP

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    Dont use a block gaurd. Sleeve it if anything.

    This is true.
     
  13. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    whats wrong with block guards? Given proper design, I don't see any issues with cooling or impeding the coolant, right?

    Also, what size injectors does the stock B18C5 come with? I used aftermarket injectors on my last C5 build.
     
  14. newb

    newb phresh VIP

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    No matter how well they are designed, they are still a blockage that holds the coolant up. If your just lookin for some kind of support for piece of mind, youd be better off posting your block. Still not as good as sleeves, but better than a block gaurd.
     
  15. 99sidude

    99sidude Moderator Moderator VIP

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    With the jrsc, you'll be fine with totally stock internals and no block guard. In terms of chassis weights, the vx and cx are the lightest, but don't have ps and rarely ac. If you want those luxuries just get the si hatch, the weight won't matter that much. Check out the reference section here for all the chassis info.

    In terms of fittment, you are going to be fine. The eg engine bay is very similar to the 94-01 teg. Buy the jrsc kit for the type r, and it will bolt right up and retain everything.

    It is easy to keep a/c and p/s; however my car has neither so I am not up to speed on the exact parts you would need.
     
  16. 99sidude

    99sidude Moderator Moderator VIP

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    You are correct in that the jrsc only makes boost under mid-wot. It has a vacuum operated bypass valve to reroute the air when the throttle plate isn't open far. Thats contrary to the common belief that s/c constantly puts a large load on the engine.
     
  17. newb

    newb phresh VIP

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    Hmm. Learned somethin new today.

    If you were to leave that valve unhooked would it work more like a traditional S/C?
     
  18. 99sidude

    99sidude Moderator Moderator VIP

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    If you pulled the vacuum source off the valve then it would never close, so you would make very little if any boost. Now if you blocked off the bypass valve, the engine would only receive air being compressed in the supercharger.
     
  19. newb

    newb phresh VIP

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    Understood. Since Ive never even looked at the JRSC kit, whats the reason for that valve? Why dont they want it to work like a traditional S/C?
     
  20. toyotaguy1

    toyotaguy1 New Member

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    alright im not a honda guy but im tryin to get into them.. i need some info on a 95 civic hatchback 5speed with a B18b non vtec in it.. is it a good car? HELP PLEASE i've always wanted a honda and now i can get one help me make informed decision...
     
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