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posol

RETIRED
ok, im sick of people talkign shit about boost sucking ass on road course-

here it is. a vid posted from h-t. 14.5 MB

440 WHP EDM ITR

http://www.hatzer.at/videovault/20030501-s...ype-r-musik.wmv

watch the fuckign vid.

watch the 400,000 cars he blows by... and not jsut one or two- ALL OF THEM.

boost > all motor
for every application except going slow


i'm done :lol:
 
Uh, is it just me or does that look like a non-competitive event? If people were actually racing against each other, I don't think the speed differential would be that high while nobody else is passing anybody else on the track. If you're racing against each other, why do you put your turn signal on to let them know which side of the track you're staying on to let them pass? I saw a few turn signals in there, along with people moving off the racing line to let the guy pass.

Power curve:
Race application for an engine has a lot to do with the shape of your power curve. A naturally aspirated engine setup for high power is peaky- but the power curve is generally pretty linear all the way to max power. A turbo engine, especially one running high levels of boost- generally has a very peaky power curve with a very sharp dropoff where the turbo transitions between being off boost and generating positive pressure. If you're driving through that transition, it really sucks.

Response time:
You have to wait for a turbocharger to "spool up". No matter how efficient the bearing in your turbocharger is, or how fast it starts to boost compared to other turbos- you still have to wait for it. I've driven my fair share of small turbo cars, and it's still annoying when you're off the gas for a bit and have to get back on again. With a large turbo setup, you have to wait even longer. Sure, it may only be a fraction of a second, but you have to tailor your driving to compensate for that extra time coming out of a turn, and the line you take around the track isn't as good. Your driving line becomes adjusted to suit standing on the gas earlier at the end of a turn, and that's usually not a good thing for your lap time.

Heat:
This is a weak argument since you can always build against it, but regardless... turbo setups on engines that weren't originally designed for turbo applications generate more heat than the engines were supposed to handle. Engines that were designed to be turbocharged tend to have more cooling, oil squirters, and other methods to combat the added heat from the turbocharger. Of course, you can always add a larger intercooler, water injection, oil squirters, higher capacity oil coolers etc- but it still stands that your non-turbo engine was not intended to have a turbocharger bolted onto it. Running the car ragged on a road course at high temps for 30 minutes at a time or more will wear on the engine quite a bit more than a naturally aspirated setup.

There's a lot more that can be said... but you get the idea. Boost is great on a road course, but you have to alter your line and driving style to use it. I'm still a firm believer that instant response time and a smoother power curve are advantageous in a racing environment where smooth driving dictates how fast you can go, but that's just me.

I don't think your video of one guy speeding around at a non-competitive event really proves anything.
 
owned-cat.jpg
 
in RE: to Calesta's post-

it was an SCDA-style track event... non-competetive, but yet, still going for each own's time. you use your turn singal as a curtosey. i think you'd find that even in a competive event with curteous drivers.

With proper gearing, tire size, course knowledge, driver skill, you will never fall off boost. as long as you stay above say 5500 rpms, you won't fall out of boost and have near-instant throttle response, much like an NA car would. after that, its linear. look at dynos. it just goes up a lost faster :)
as for waiting for spool- its all about knowing how to drive. instead of waiting till you want full throttle again, you get on the gas again slightly. and besides, all braking should be done BEFORE the corner even happens, after that, its back on the gas. in a boosted car, you just need to get back on the gas that 1/2 second sooner. and as for the standing on the gas earlier at the end of a turn, and it not being good for the lap time, thats why you have to feet. you can still be on the brake while you give it a little throttle. once again, it comes back to the driver :)

heat, you make good points, and while i can't say anything against it, there are ways to avoid it- oil coolers, lower temp thermo's, tornado superchargers, errr wait a minute.... :lol: but again, a race car is a race car. if it can't hold the power and heat for 30 min, you didn't build it right.

As for altering line and driving style... i don't think any of us in here (with the exception of maybe Chris :lol: ) are good enough drivers to even HAVE a line, and stick to it exactly each and every lap. i agree, being smooth is key- but 90% of being smooth doesn't come from your foot, it comes from your eyes and hands

as for the video- come on- he's blowing by ferarris, porsche's and some other wierd cars that i can't name but look sfast and euro :lol: even in the straights. competive or not- if i was in a 360 modena, and a straight away came up- i'd be on it, and i think you would be too :)

ohh well, thats my rebuttal... and in my mind, n/a will never own boost.... except maybe in the snow :p
 
Yes, the power curve is taller on the turbo engine while boosting compared to a similar displacement naturally aspirated engine, that's a given. Staying on boost while you're off the gas- you just can't do it, unless you're back on the gas while the turbo is still blowing off against your throttle plate. Once the turbo begins to slow down, you have to wait for it to spool up again, even if it is just for a fraction of a second.

Racing line- you argue that "90% of us don't have one"... well are we saying you and people on this board? Or are we talking racing in general? If your racing line does depend on that smooth transition, and the turbo system's power delivery disrupts it more than a non-turbo one, that's all there is to it. Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but to someone racing pro on a track, it does.

Engine build- that's just a given that significantly modifying the engine past its original design intent isn't a good idea. Sure you can compensate for it, but it's still better to turbocharge an engine that was designed for a turbo in the first place. Engineering logic wins out here. If your engine only lasts the 30 minutes that you're going to be racing it on the track, you can just say that it's a race car and trailer it home- but the people out there racing Hondas are doing it as a hobby and driving their cars home.

As for the video- of course he's blowing by them on the straights. First, they're really not trying as hard as he is to run down the straightaway... plus his power to weight ratio is a lot better than theirs. Raw power wins on the straight, not skill and car setup. He barely gains in the turns, and that's where the races are won and lost. Now the Ferrari... I really think that if you put two people with identical driving skill on the track with those two cars, and the guy in the Ferrari was really trying to drive as fast as the guy in the ITR, the 360 wouldn't have been passed anywhere near as fast as it was. It's not outpowered by enough to show that kind of a speed differential on the track!
 
i pass cars like that when i do SCDA.... it definatly wasnt a competative race... and while the car was impressive... he sucked ass as a driver.... his corner and exit speeds sucked.... he was just making up for it with straight line acceleration.... watch the cars in front of him when he goes through a corner... they pull away then, he stomps on it in the straight to pass them.... someone in a supercharged mini cooper would house that guy if they knew how to drive....
 
Gee Brian, you are the one who says boost sucks for autoX.. so i guess you are tired of hearing yourself talk shit? :)
 
it does suck for autoX
if he was to gas it in a turn he'd get nothing but wheel spin and understeer understeer understeer
and in autoX theres not enough straights for him to make up for how shitty he is in the corners
road course and autoX are quite different
but judging by that video that car isnt good for road course either
calesta is right .... road course races are won or lost in the corners (first thing they teach you in racing school)
and if he was racing competitivly and driving like that hed get his ass handed to him every time
 
but to someone racing pro on a track, it does.
Click to expand...



haha, someone racing pro on a track probably isn't racing their souped up econo box either.


Last time I checked, cars like the TT supra, any prosche turbo, 300zx TTs, WRXs, EVOs, I mean, fucking skylines, they all seem to do ok with this "evil boost" your talking about.
 
Originally posted by liquid00meth+?-->
liquid00meth @ ?) said:
haha, someone racing pro on a track probably isn't racing their souped up econo box either.
Click to expand...

No, of course not- but you'd be surprised just how good a lot of the drivers are who do race their daily drivers... quite a few of which are Hondas. Racing line does matter, even if you're driving your mom's station wagon on the track.

liquid00meth@?
Last time I checked, cars like the TT supra, any prosche turbo, 300zx TTs, WRXs, EVOs, I mean, fucking skylines, they all seem to do ok with this "evil boost" your talking about.
Click to expand...


Yes, but there's one key difference there. Every single one of those cars you just listed are BUILT to run on boost in the first place. A Honda is not... well anything but the City Turbo- and you don't see many of those in the States.
 
Originally posted by E+?-->
E @ ?) said:
he sucked ass as a driver.... his corner and exit speeds sucked.... he was just making up for it with straight line acceleration.... watch the cars in front of him when he goes through a corner... they pull away then, he stomps on it in the straight to pass them.... someone in a supercharged mini cooper would house that guy if they knew how to drive....
Click to expand...

Exactly. He was basically driving a drag race on a road course. :lol:

E@?
calesta is right .... road course races are won or lost in the corners (first thing they teach you in racing school)
and if he was racing competitivly and driving like that hed get his ass handed to him every time
Click to expand...


My point again. The driving line and smooth transitions are everything in a road race. If you're depending on raw power to save your ass on the straightaways, there's something wrong. Now don't get me wrong- lots of power is nice on any track- but if you can't use it, or if you're using it to make up for something else- why bother having it? I just prefer the feel of a naturally aspirated car on the road course. For me, turbos belong on cars that came turbo from the factory, and on the drag strip. I'm sure I'll drive a turbo car of my own on the road course some day- it just won't be a Civic.
 
Of course, leave it to me to write the first NON-technical post in this thread. I guess it's ok tho since it's in anything goes.

Whether or not boost is better than N/A on road courses is beyond me, all I have to say is that the best part of that video is how every time he passes a car, it plays the sound of Mario (from super mario brothers) picking up a gold coin.

Does he get an extra life after he passes 100 cars?
 
Originally posted by XZILER8@May 22 2003, 11:37 PM
...the best part of that video is how every time he passes a car, it plays the sound of Mario (from super mario brothers) picking up a gold coin.
Click to expand...

that noise is quite key. I honestly wouldn't care for that vid if it wasn't for the noises. :)
 
Why does GT3 have cars with HUGE non spooling ass turbo's? Because in road racing, like GT3, THEY RULE.

Driver skill is the key. If you keep the R's up in the corner, and feather the throttle, just like an N/A car, up to the point of the tires breaking loose, you are going to have a decent exit speed if you hit the apex, and follow a smooth line.

So what that guy can't drive very well at a road course event? Maybe he's a noob?

I'll be if he keeps going to the events, and LEARNS how to best drive his car in the corners AND the straights, he will pass just about anything on the track short of a F50 or McLaren F1 with ease just from having over 500 HP in a 2500 pound car.
 
and he will still have traction issues on the corner exit
the loss of traction will induce understeer
the understeer will force him into a larger radius turn on the exit
if that radius is too large he will go off the track (the same as if he early apexed the turn)
this means he will have to sacrifice speed later in the turn to hold the desired turning radius
this will lower his exit speed for the corner
so once again he will be drag racing down the straight trying to make up the time that was lost in the corner
so basicly he will still suck
power is great if you can get it too the road and make it work for you
if not who gives a fuck
 
Every single one of those cars you just listed are BUILT to run on boost in the first place.
Click to expand...



If you built a honda with the right tuning you can make it act as if it is stock turbo charged. Buy the best differential you can buy, and go for it.


Yea I'll agree that the power spikes plague a road race car, but it's a moot point really. Anyone on a reasonable budget isn't going to have an n/a road race car that has numbers to compete with the same car turbocharged. If your worried about power spikes, use a smaller turbo. The thing will practically spool off "idle" in a race situation.


There really is no argument, it's just being made up. Yes if you jury rig up your 400 hp turbo car that was built for the strip and try to run it on a road course your going to suck ass. If you take your road course tuned n/a car to the strip, your going to suck ass.

This seems like a "head up there and take your next 4 lefts" argument.
 
if you're worried about power spikes, you need a better boost controller.
the avcr allows for gear based boost setting, as well as rpm based boost control. using a small wastegate spring, such as .45 bar, you can have 6-ish psi at 4000 on a given motor, and depending on the gear and rpm you are at, crank it to 15-16 at the top of your power band, or in 4th and 5th. its all abou ttuning
 
a friend of mine has a turbo gsr in a hatch that is built solely for auto-x, it does VERY well. with a quaife and some R compounds combined with hondata's new boost technology, it fucking owns. just to give you an idea of the power this hatch is putting down, it ran a 12.2 with an open diff and nothing changed from the auto-x setup ;)

power is power, if you can't learn how to harness your power, you need a fucking bus pass.
 
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