Bush lovers read this...

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I honestly have no idea how you could win a rational debate and keep things civil. You are quite possibly one of the most belligerent people I know.
 
We as people aren't perfect and if the 'experts' can substaniate their claims and it appears as if its true, then thats what the government has to go on.


so the experts substantiated what bush wanted them to...?
great, i guess they should have checked it out some more don;t you think?

Did we have to do this? I saw the intelligence right up to the day of the war, and I did not see any imminent threat there. If anything, Saddam was coming apart. The sanctions were working. The containment was working. He had a hollow military, as we saw. If he had weapons of mass destruction, it was leftover stuff -- artillery shells and rocket rounds. He didn't have the delivery systems. We controlled the skies and seaports. We bombed him at will. All of this happened under U.N. authority. I mean, we had him by the throat.

and its real funny how you talk about proof, especially considering the proof bush provided to the citizens of this country for going to war with iraq...

ooh wait... his proof was all wrong, wasn't it? i forgot
 
New2thePolitcalScene can't hold his ass in a debate if a gun where pointed to his head. He shows NO proof of what he says, NO evidence to back up his claims and complely walks around every question.

LOL, no wonder he's a republican shill.

Anyway, fun time!

pipeline1996_2.jpg


"..the US - and several countries in the region - are also keen to commercially exploit the vast oil and gas reserves in Central Asia, and believe that Afghanistan holds the key.
Several countries are exploring the idea of building a pipeline from Central Asia across Afghanistan to Pakistan and beyond - something that would be impossible without a stable Afghanistan. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1537244.stm

Total oil reserves of the Caspian Sea region, estimated at above 200 BBL (billion barrels), exceeds that of Western Europe and/or the United States (110 BBL) and puts it in second place after the Middle East (700 BBL).

Everyone from Hitler to Bush has wanted their hands on Caspian oil.

The US wanted a plan to construct a pipeline from the oilfields in “Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean”. The Taliban would not go for it and that is when a US representative, Tom Simons, threaten the Taliban, “Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.”

Well, guess what happened.

Zalmay Khalilzad, a former aide to Unocal was named envoy to Afghanistan after the Taliban were defeated. http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwhbiozal.html

Do the mention Unocal? Nope. Why?

Khalilzad was an advisor for the Unocal Corporation. In the mid 1990s, while working for the Cambridge Energy Research Associates, Khalilzad conducted risk analyses for Unocal for a proposed 1,400 km (890 mile), $2-billion, 622 m³/s (22,000 ft³/s) natural gas pipeline project which would have extended from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmay_Khalilzad

Wow! The same guy who did the analysis of the pipeline just happened to be the person Bush appointed as ambassador and who signed the contract building that very same pipeline that the Taliban would not agree to. This is, of course, after we bombed them.

One guess is all you need to figure out who got the contract. Halliburton.

Moving on...

"When the reports surfaced, Haifa bint Faisal, wife of Saudi ambassador Bandar bin Sultan, acknowledged that she sent nearly $150,000 to the wife of a Saudi living in San Diego. The recipient, Majeda Ibrahin Dweikat, signed over some of the checks to a friend whose husband, Omar al-Bayoumi (with Dweikat’s husband), helped hijackers Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi find housing in San Diego, open bank accounts, get Social Security cards, pay expenses and arrange flying lessons in Florida."

Bandar... the guy we give secret service guards to 24/7. The guy who personally knows Osama. The guy in this picture:

3buzqrq6.jpg


Nothing more needs to be said.

Now, if you can disprove this data WITHOUT walking around the issues, please do. None of this "that aint a reputable source like FOX!" bullshit.
 
Yes Moore made the movie to make bush look bad. That’s his job. The point is in the US your news sources suck. They are so far left or right that the truth is skewed. Up here I watch all the pro bush and anti bush, movies, show, special, read all the adds, looked at the facts, The bottom line is the current administration of your government are nothing but a bunch of money hungry mongrels. The war in Afghanistan was justified, the war in well show me some proof that Sadam had any weapons at all and was a threat to you and me. Ya I believe in democracy but I also believe in self guidance. We all at one time had to fight for our freedoms and we value that freedom, in Iraq people spit at troops despise the us over this did they want freedom? IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE CHOICE.
 
Originally posted by Kcihcaton@Dec 8 2004, 02:18 PM
What would be considered a credible resource? Pictures? Since you say anything anyone says can be bs.
[post=428575]Quoted post[/post]​



Listen to yourself.

Anything anyone says CAN be BS. A person said it, its going to have some sort of slant on it, we as people can't be 100% UNBIAS. However something someone says can be substantiated by facts.


And yes what some people says matters more than others. They've proven themselves credible and knowledgable in a field...thats why we have experts.
 
Originally posted by Battle Pope@Dec 8 2004, 02:19 PM
I honestly have no idea how you could win a rational debate and keep things civil. You are quite possibly one of the most belligerent people I know.
[post=428579]Quoted post[/post]​



Yes and no one can come at me without winning their petty little battles by shooting some sort insult towards my character.

Online, yes I do get childish and shoot back. Most people wouldn't have the gaul to say the shit they do here, in person...regardless of who its to.
 
I'm not out to win any battles. I'm through participating in this discussion because I'm tired of being insulted for opposing your viewpoints.
 
Originally posted by Sabz5150@Dec 8 2004, 03:18 PM
New2thePolitcalScene can't hold his ass in a debate if a gun where pointed to his head. He shows NO proof of what he says, NO evidence to back up his claims and complely walks around every question.

LOL, no wonder he's a republican shill.

Anyway, fun time!

pipeline1996_2.jpg


"..the US - and several countries in the region - are also keen to commercially exploit the vast oil and gas reserves in Central Asia, and believe that Afghanistan holds the key.
Several countries are exploring the idea of building a pipeline from Central Asia across Afghanistan to Pakistan and beyond - something that would be impossible without a stable Afghanistan. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1537244.stm

Total oil reserves of the Caspian Sea region, estimated at above 200 BBL (billion barrels), exceeds that of Western Europe and/or the United States (110 BBL) and puts it in second place after the Middle East (700 BBL).

Everyone from Hitler to Bush has wanted their hands on Caspian oil.

The US wanted a plan to construct a pipeline from the oilfields in “Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean”. The Taliban would not go for it and that is when a US representative, Tom Simons, threaten the Taliban, “Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.”

Well, guess what happened.

Zalmay Khalilzad, a former aide to Unocal was named envoy to Afghanistan after the Taliban were defeated. http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwhbiozal.html

Do the mention Unocal? Nope. Why?

Khalilzad was an advisor for the Unocal Corporation. In the mid 1990s, while working for the Cambridge Energy Research Associates, Khalilzad conducted risk analyses for Unocal for a proposed 1,400 km (890 mile), $2-billion, 622 m³/s (22,000 ft³/s) natural gas pipeline project which would have extended from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmay_Khalilzad

Wow! The same guy who did the analysis of the pipeline just happened to be the person Bush appointed as ambassador and who signed the contract building that very same pipeline that the Taliban would not agree to. This is, of course, after we bombed them.

One guess is all you need to figure out who got the contract. Halliburton.

Moving on...

"When the reports surfaced, Haifa bint Faisal, wife of Saudi ambassador Bandar bin Sultan, acknowledged that she sent nearly $150,000 to the wife of a Saudi living in San Diego. The recipient, Majeda Ibrahin Dweikat, signed over some of the checks to a friend whose husband, Omar al-Bayoumi (with Dweikat’s husband), helped hijackers Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi find housing in San Diego, open bank accounts, get Social Security cards, pay expenses and arrange flying lessons in Florida."

Bandar... the guy we give secret service guards to 24/7. The guy who personally knows Osama. The guy in this picture:

3buzqrq6.jpg


Nothing more needs to be said.

Now, if you can disprove this data WITHOUT walking around the issues, please do. None of this "that aint a reputable source like FOX!" bullshit.
[post=428617]Quoted post[/post]​



Look at the conclusions you drew, for example

"Wow! The same guy who did the analysis of the pipeline just happened to be the person Bush appointed as ambassador and who signed the contract building that very same pipeline that the Taliban would not agree to. This is, of course, after we bombed them.

One guess is all you need to figure out who got the contract. Halliburton.

Moving on..."

Who's to say he's not qualified for the job and shouldn't have gotten the job? I'm not saying that Bush didn't appoint a friend but would you appoint a complete stranger? No, of course you appoint people you know and like. The people you know and like are usually your friends, they're usually on your inner social circle...its no suprise that if they benefit from one thing, you probably will as well. To go all out and basically proclaim that theres one single reason to this war and no other supporting reasons is foolish. I've said in other posts that yes its primaryly over oil which would benefit the US. Why would we do anything that wouldn't benefit ourselves, are we going to start shooting ourselves in the foot?

I never said the one of the major causes for being over there is economics, thats the cause behind all wars even if it is unspoken. You don't just go conquer land or start a war for the hell of it, anyone can point this out.


Clinton started bombing Baghdad after he got caught with his pants around his knees getting a blowjob...so by you're reason by association does that mean thats why we bombed Baghdad? Its possible but thats a difficult argument to make.

Most of what you said was reason/guilt by association. Since one Saudi knew the next, who knew the next, who's sister's cousin was an oil tycoon who knew bush, HE DONE IT!

...no that doesn't fly.


And most sources, especially the slanted political sources of modern times can be refuted so debate is just a pissing match and is only over when one side gives in or acknowledges that their source was have flaws in it.

You showed evidence and drew a conclusion, my conclusion isn't exactly the same as yours.
 
Originally posted by Battle Pope@Dec 8 2004, 04:00 PM
I'm not out to win any battles. I'm through participating in this discussion because I'm tired of being insulted for opposing your viewpoints.
[post=428664]Quoted post[/post]​



Are these lines coming from a book? ...or are you having a conversation or what?


I didn't insult you in the post above at all. I only insulted ANYONE only after being provoked by someone else.


Here's a play by play, after I just read over the thread.

Redneck first tells me I'm talking out of my ass after I was being 100% serious.
Asmallsol busts out the sarcasm thinking its funny to be insulting.
And then you, yourself call me a republican zealot.

Only started to get bitey after that. Before that I was 100% proper. :D

*kiss*
 
Originally posted by Battle Pope@Dec 8 2004, 04:15 PM
:shrug2:

I'm just going to stay away from politically oriented threads.
[post=428681]Quoted post[/post]​



As everyone knows, I should be mature and obviously should do so as well.

I don't know. I don't feel I have a problem being too opinionated, I feel I have a problem believing in everyone and believing that after presenting them with facts and a conclusion that they should 'see the light'. It irks me when someone keeps spouting something that just appears to be true on the outside without first looking deeper. I'm not religious but just feel like in a way I can 'save them' and help them see perhaps its not always as it appears. I love learning and I love educating myself and if I'm presented with facts as to why I'm wrong, you can lead me to the water...and I WILL DRINK.

OMG Bush is an money grubbing oil tycoon! Every war was over something primaryly materialistic but there are other reasons for the war. Sadaam needed to be ousted and it was just the perfect time to do it, after all we've been trying for 14 years now.

Oh yes and here in America we can agree to disagree and not have to shoot or kill one another, ah the greatness.
 
perhaps its not always as it appears


you seem to have a hard time accepting this...

your opinion would be that bush is trying to help the country and help the us citizens...

my opinion is that bush is only interested in his big money friends, and he will abuse and use anyone he has to in order to accomplish their goals...
i think the US gov't is corrupt
i believe the 2000 election was tainted with florida, and bush having family as the governor of said state... doesn;t it seem a little too coincidental?

and i also believe the 2004 election was tainted with the "voting machines" that were designed and produced by people that had vested interests in keeping bush in office...

am i the only one that saw the iraq war coming?
from the first time bush mentioned them, and tried to link them to 911, and then his administration continued to beat the war drums..

the UN was not with us for a reason, and thats cause they are not as retarted as 51% of the american public and they do not believe whatever is fed to them...

Bush has failed this country completely...
bin laden is still not being held accountable, and is still living a free life, and is still able to provide his financial backing to further damaging the US...

and we could continue to talk about tax cuts for the top 1% of earners in america, or how about the medicare bill that forces the poor elderly to pay full price

everything about the bush administration, as well as the whole beurocracy of this country seems to be startingly corrupt to me... but i guess thats just me and 49% of the rest of america... not counting the "lost" votes of course...
 
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com

Some really great stuff on this site about how Moore spliced together video/audio tapes from different speeches, used shady sources to back up his statements, and outright fabricated "facts", all to further his PERSONAL OPINIONS, which some people with smaller brains see as a documentary. The site originally started to debunk "Bowling For Columbine", but expanded when Moore's next set of lies (F911) was released.

I vote both sides, according to what I believe. People like Moore need to be dragged naked down a dirt road.
 
wow every one that voted keep posting those that did not should qiute
 
Originally posted by dohcvtec_accord@Dec 8 2004, 05:39 PM
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com

Some really great stuff on this site about how Moore spliced together video/audio tapes from different speeches, used shady sources to back up his statements, and outright fabricated "facts", all to further his PERSONAL OPINIONS, which some people with smaller brains see as a documentary. The site originally started to debunk "Bowling For Columbine", but expanded when Moore's next set of lies (F911) was released.

I vote both sides, according to what I believe. People like Moore need to be dragged naked down a dirt road.
[post=428780]Quoted post[/post]​


And executives of corps like Fox News need to be tortured and burned ALIVE.

You believe the right wing wackos, I believe the left wing ones.
 
Originally posted by Sabz5150@Dec 8 2004, 04:28 PM
And executives of corps like Fox News need to be tortured and burned ALIVE.

You believe the right wing wackos, I believe the left wing ones.
[post=428833]Quoted post[/post]​


I don't know that the execs of Fox News need to be burned alive. They tend (TEND) to report the truth, but only one-sided (i.e. Republican) truths. There are plenty of right-wingers that also need to be burned alive, true. I'll agree with you there.

Anyway, I don't believe "right-wing wackos". Nor the left. Here's an excerpt from the guy's site:

This site is not here to change anyone's mind about anything except the honesty of Michael Moore. It is not here to make you love guns, conservatives, republicans or Charlton Heston. It is not here to make you hate Marilyn Manson, gun control lobbyists, liberals or even Michael Moore. It's here to give you the truth that Moore withholds and perverts on a regular basis to fid an ideological gain.

These facts and information are here to let you make informed decisions - not necessarily different ones.

The main purpose of the site is to reveal the outright lies and extreme spin that Michael Moore displays as fact in his work quite regularly - most notably in his most popular film Bowling for Columbine. The purpose is to give you the information you didn't see in the movie that is important to your decision making.


That's all. While the guy may be a right-winger (as shown by the links on his personal site), he's not spinning the truth. Someone here asked for a case-by-case dispute of Moore's movie(s). I provided them.
 
Originally posted by dohcvtec_accord+Dec 8 2004, 06:33 PM-->
@Dec 8 2004, 04:28 PM
And executives of corps like Fox News need to be tortured and burned ALIVE.

You believe the right wing wackos, I believe the left wing ones.
[post=428833]Quoted post[/post]​


I don't know that the execs of Fox News need to be burned alive. They tend (TEND) to report the truth, but only one-sided (i.e. Republican) truths. There are plenty of right-wingers that also need to be burned alive, true. I'll agree with you there.

Anyway, I don't believe "right-wing wackos". Nor the left. Here's an excerpt from the guy's site:

This site is not here to change anyone's mind about anything except the honesty of Michael Moore. It is not here to make you love guns, conservatives, republicans or Charlton Heston. It is not here to make you hate Marilyn Manson, gun control lobbyists, liberals or even Michael Moore. It's here to give you the truth that Moore withholds and perverts on a regular basis to fid an ideological gain.

These facts and information are here to let you make informed decisions - not necessarily different ones.

The main purpose of the site is to reveal the outright lies and extreme spin that Michael Moore displays as fact in his work quite regularly - most notably in his most popular film Bowling for Columbine. The purpose is to give you the information you didn't see in the movie that is important to your decision making.


That's all. While the guy may be a right-winger (as shown by the links on his personal site), he's not spinning the truth. Someone here asked for a case-by-case dispute of Moore's movie(s). I provided them.
[post=428838]Quoted post[/post]​



Moore has a case-by-case rebuttal on his site for his movies, stating facts (mostly on F911), a lot of which I have researched myself and found to be true. I will agree that a lot of into is based on speculation, but goddamn... how can you see the line of greasy palms and blood and not go 'WTF?!'. From Bush's relationship with the Bin Ladens and Bandar, to Halliburton and Unicom's role in what's going on in the middle east, something smells really funky and it's this administration.

New2 said "I never said the one of the major causes for being over there is economics, thats the cause behind all wars even if it is unspoken. You don't just go conquer land or start a war for the hell of it, anyone can point this out."

We weren't supposed to be there for *ANY* economic reasons whatsoever! This was to take out a terrorist group and capture Binny and the Jets, not drive out the governing body to push a gas pipeline through. THAT is lying to the people.

My point is that this administration does not have our best interests in mind. There's way too much conflict of interest to even suggest they are.

As an aside, there are a lot of extreme leftists I could do without.
 
Originally posted by Sabz5150+Dec 8 2004, 04:42 PM-->
Originally posted by dohcvtec_accord@Dec 8 2004, 06:33 PM
Sabz5150
@Dec 8 2004, 04:28 PM
And executives of corps like Fox News need to be tortured and burned ALIVE.

You believe the right wing wackos, I believe the left wing ones.
[post=428833]Quoted post[/post]​


I don't know that the execs of Fox News need to be burned alive. They tend (TEND) to report the truth, but only one-sided (i.e. Republican) truths. There are plenty of right-wingers that also need to be burned alive, true. I'll agree with you there.

Anyway, I don't believe "right-wing wackos". Nor the left. Here's an excerpt from the guy's site:

This site is not here to change anyone's mind about anything except the honesty of Michael Moore. It is not here to make you love guns, conservatives, republicans or Charlton Heston. It is not here to make you hate Marilyn Manson, gun control lobbyists, liberals or even Michael Moore. It's here to give you the truth that Moore withholds and perverts on a regular basis to fid an ideological gain.

These facts and information are here to let you make informed decisions - not necessarily different ones.

The main purpose of the site is to reveal the outright lies and extreme spin that Michael Moore displays as fact in his work quite regularly - most notably in his most popular film Bowling for Columbine. The purpose is to give you the information you didn't see in the movie that is important to your decision making.


That's all. While the guy may be a right-winger (as shown by the links on his personal site), he's not spinning the truth. Someone here asked for a case-by-case dispute of Moore's movie(s). I provided them.
[post=428838]Quoted post[/post]​



Moore has a case-by-case rebuttal on his site for his movies, stating facts (mostly on F911), a lot of which I have researched myself and found to be true. I will agree that a lot of into is based on speculation, but goddamn... how can you see the line of greasy palms and blood and not go 'WTF?!'. From Bush's relationship with the Bin Ladens and Bandar, to Halliburton and Unicom's role in what's going on in the middle east, something smells really funky and it's this administration.

New2 said "I never said the one of the major causes for being over there is economics, thats the cause behind all wars even if it is unspoken. You don't just go conquer land or start a war for the hell of it, anyone can point this out."

We weren't supposed to be there for *ANY* economic reasons whatsoever! This was to take out a terrorist group and capture Binny and the Jets, not drive out the governing body to push a gas pipeline through. THAT is lying to the people.

My point is that this administration does not have our best interests in mind. There's way too much conflict of interest to even suggest they are.

As an aside, there are a lot of extreme leftists I could do without.
[post=428846]Quoted post[/post]​


I haven't seen F911, nor do I plan to. When I saw Bowling For Columbine, it got me genuinely interested in Moore. Then, I did some research, and found him to be a fat lying sack of shit. I lost most respect for him, and that causes me to disbelieve any of his assertions that he may make in F911. He may have very well made some truthful cases in F911. But I'm also sure there are lies in there, as well.

Also, in this thread, I never once defended nor attacked Bush. My sole quest was to disprove the waste of oxygen and food we know as Michael Moore.

That said, I wholly approved of Bush's actions in the months after 9/11. I was even willing to believe him when he tried to convince us as to why we went into Iraq. Now, however, I'm sorely disappointed in his actions, and would have loved to have seen him booted out of office. I was not willing, however, to vote for that slimy asshole the Democrats gave us to run against him. I mean, come on....Gore and Kerry? the Democrats could have put a fucking APE up there instead of those two guys, and Bush wouldn't have gotten elected in 2000 OR 2004. But they give us THE TWO WORST choices they've ever given us, and then whine (not directed toward you guys) when their candidates get defeated. That's why I have no sympathy for the Democrats' plight right now.
 
Originally posted by dohcvtec_accord+Dec 8 2004, 04:49 PM-->
Originally posted by Sabz5150@Dec 8 2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by dohcvtec_accord@Dec 8 2004, 06:33 PM
Sabz5150
@Dec 8 2004, 04:28 PM
And executives of corps like Fox News need to be tortured and burned ALIVE.

You believe the right wing wackos, I believe the left wing ones.
[post=428833]Quoted post[/post]​


I don't know that the execs of Fox News need to be burned alive. They tend (TEND) to report the truth, but only one-sided (i.e. Republican) truths. There are plenty of right-wingers that also need to be burned alive, true. I'll agree with you there.

Anyway, I don't believe "right-wing wackos". Nor the left. Here's an excerpt from the guy's site:

This site is not here to change anyone's mind about anything except the honesty of Michael Moore. It is not here to make you love guns, conservatives, republicans or Charlton Heston. It is not here to make you hate Marilyn Manson, gun control lobbyists, liberals or even Michael Moore. It's here to give you the truth that Moore withholds and perverts on a regular basis to fid an ideological gain.

These facts and information are here to let you make informed decisions - not necessarily different ones.

The main purpose of the site is to reveal the outright lies and extreme spin that Michael Moore displays as fact in his work quite regularly - most notably in his most popular film Bowling for Columbine. The purpose is to give you the information you didn't see in the movie that is important to your decision making.


That's all. While the guy may be a right-winger (as shown by the links on his personal site), he's not spinning the truth. Someone here asked for a case-by-case dispute of Moore's movie(s). I provided them.
[post=428838]Quoted post[/post]​



Moore has a case-by-case rebuttal on his site for his movies, stating facts (mostly on F911), a lot of which I have researched myself and found to be true. I will agree that a lot of into is based on speculation, but goddamn... how can you see the line of greasy palms and blood and not go 'WTF?!'. From Bush's relationship with the Bin Ladens and Bandar, to Halliburton and Unicom's role in what's going on in the middle east, something smells really funky and it's this administration.

New2 said "I never said the one of the major causes for being over there is economics, thats the cause behind all wars even if it is unspoken. You don't just go conquer land or start a war for the hell of it, anyone can point this out."

We weren't supposed to be there for *ANY* economic reasons whatsoever! This was to take out a terrorist group and capture Binny and the Jets, not drive out the governing body to push a gas pipeline through. THAT is lying to the people.

My point is that this administration does not have our best interests in mind. There's way too much conflict of interest to even suggest they are.

As an aside, there are a lot of extreme leftists I could do without.
[post=428846]Quoted post[/post]​


I haven't seen F911, nor do I plan to. When I saw Bowling For Columbine, it got me genuinely interested in Moore. Then, I did some research, and found him to be a fat lying sack of shit. I lost most respect for him, and that causes me to disbelieve any of his assertions that he may make in F911. He may have very well made some truthful cases in F911. But I'm also sure there are lies in there, as well.

Also, in this thread, I never once defended nor attacked Bush. My sole quest was to disprove the waste of oxygen and food we know as Michael Moore.

That said, I wholly approved of Bush's actions in the months after 9/11. I was even willing to believe him when he tried to convince us as to why we went into Iraq. Now, however, I'm sorely disappointed in his actions, and would have loved to have seen him booted out of office. I was not willing, however, to vote for that slimy asshole the Democrats gave us to run against him. I mean, come on....Gore and Kerry? the Democrats could have put a fucking APE up there instead of those two guys, and Bush wouldn't have gotten elected in 2000 OR 2004. But they give us THE TWO WORST choices they've ever given us, and then whine (not directed toward you guys) when their candidates get defeated. That's why I have no sympathy for the Democrats' plight right now.
[post=428853]Quoted post[/post]​


And we all know he wastes plenty of it!
 
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