Centrifugical Supercharger Vs Turbo

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thanks man
I live in the Cayman Islands in the Caribbean and i will post some pics (once i know how) with the complete tour on the car. I drive a 1998 Accord Sir-T its Midnight Blue (very dark blue metallic, the blue only stands out in the direct sunlight, at night its black) with polished aluminum 7 spoke 15 inch wheels (stock :( )

and to k2e2vin the way i understood intercoolers is that they rate them on how many CFM they can flow (supportable HP) and how much they can cool that air before it leaves ( cooling efficiency) therefore giving a overall rating of the intercooler

with that theory

EG
90degrees-->turbo-->300degrees-->intercooler -80degrees-->210degrees into the intake
90degrees-->sc-->230degrees-->aftercooler -80degrees-->140degrees into the intake

by this example, its not that hard to guess which one will make more power.

All the turbo guys will know a better intercooler that can flow more and cool quicker makes a world of difference.
 
the problem with that, is that its constantly variable. how fast you are traveling creates more wind, and thus more cooling of the boosted air. its really impossible to speculate.
basically, the best intercoolers out there are the biggest one you can fit, without offering too much of a pressure drop (meaning, before the intercooler is X psi, and after the intercooler is Y psi). none are 100%, as they 'leak', but IMO the best ones out are PWR.

The islands must be pretty nice... and at the same time hot. So i understand your want for a good cooling system.
the wheels sound nice- why the frown? :lol: 15 inch wheels rock

like i said above, if this were my car, i'd go NA with it. it sounds like a pretty sweet NA motor... just gotta find some parts to support it. But, if boost is really what you want to do, you have to take into consideration of your environment. I live up north in connecticut... and i'm worried about detonation come summer time of 90 degrees and 100% humidity.
it must be well over 100 there? no? I'm not familiar with the area... but it sounds like it gets hot there`
 
Yeah i was wondering if a pressure drop occurred thanks for clearing that up for me but my theory was be that the air would definatly be cooler all around on a SC (not trying to stir up anymore agruments on the SC vs Turbo topic). I was just using that as an example. and do you think using the S2000 as an example i could boost my motor?
Now for those custom mounts :unsure:
 
Were you talking about the PWR water to air as i would agree they rock :worthy: but the price is more like :blink: Its in the 90's like everyday here even in december. I also heard that air to air soaks up heat to a point where its no longer effective (like when waiting on the lights at a 1/4 mile strip or stop light right before you floor it). Im thinking air-air for right now, water-air/aftercooler when the price is right.
 
i was talking air/air. air/water can be more efficient however, for me, on a street car, an air/air is all i need.
i don't live in a huge city where im in stop and go traffic... that, and i work nights :) so im usually only out driving when the sun is down and its not hot out yet.

check the thread a couple posts down in the FI forum... there was a recent discussion on air/water vs air/air
 
to clear up those miscocceptions
turbos heat is a result of the air being compressed ie put your hand on your compressor its hot the exhaust is not the cause he cause is the compression of the air
 
And any one care to argue with this point

5) This one is for all you traction guys who say a SC isnt good for traction. Duh cause it makes alot more power down low in the rpm range than turbo. Just put some slicks on and with a competent driver who can launch properly, a SC car with 12 psi would smoke a turbo car with 12 psi at the strip.
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Im just using Psi as a reference. Substitute 12psi for, lets say, 250 peak whp.
 
Both SC and Turbo compress and therfore heat up air. My aruguement is that exhaust manifold heats up the compressor housing for the turbo ( being attached directly to the exhaust manifold). More heat than a centrifugical superchargers compressor housing (Vortech) being mounted elsewhere in the engine bay.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/images...s_underhood.gif
the compressor is well away from the exhaust manifolds heat

unlike the turbo
http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_6...274/i-4_B_L.JPG
its right next to it plus joined to it. remember under very hard running the exhaust manifold gets very very hot (like 800 degrees hot).
 
yes but what i am saying is an intercooler would cool that down(the heated air). the sc still sees hot air from the exaust manifold, because of the way the engine is positioned, the air has to go around the engine, with the air carrying the heat from the manifold. but in all the sc would give you less heat and better response. i was just saying that between a intercooled/aftercooled sc and a intercooled turbo that air entering the intake manifold would be almost the same.
 
Ok but a intercooler only can cool the air BY XX degrees NOT TO XX degrees.so if it 240 degrees when it enters the intercooler and the intercooler then cools the air by (for arguements sake) 100 degrees then when the air exits it will be 140 degrees. Now start 300 degrees as you agreed with me that the turbo's air would probably be hotter to begin with.

See where im going????

The end result would be 200 degrees (turbo) vs 140 degrees (SC)
 
Originally posted by JDMSpecAccordSir-T@May 28 2003, 01:36 PM
Ok but a intercooler only can cool the air BY XX degrees NOT TO XX degrees.so if it 240 degrees when it enters the intercooler and the intercooler then cools the air by (for arguements sake) 100 degrees then when the air exits it will be 140 degrees. Now start 300 degrees as you agreed with me that the turbo's air would probably be hotter to begin with.

See where im going????

The end result would be 200 degrees (turbo) vs 140 degrees (SC)
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no...

an intercooler "tries" to cool it to ambient, or outside temp. how much it will cool the temp by is determined by the efficientcy(measured in %) of the intercooler.
 
No everheard about windchill factor lets say the air moving over the intercooler is 30 degrees. the air before the intercooler is lets say 240 degrees, the intercooler will ATTEMPT to cool the air FLOWING through it (remember now that the air doesnt sit in the intercooler it passes through at a very high speed and is only in the intercooler for a very short period of time) to temperature of the air flowing over the intercooler. so it only therefore cools the air flowing through the intercooler by X degrees. so if it cools the air by x degrees you would minus that from the number you started with(240-X=??) starting with a lower number would leave you with a lower number (Turbo vs SC). Again the Intercooler ATTEMPTS to cool the air. If it could cool the air to the temperature of the air flowing over it it would be 100% effecient. A intercooler has yet to reach that goal. I dont even think water to air has reached that yet.
 
Originally posted by JDMSpecAccordSir-T@May 28 2003, 10:44 PM
No everheard about windchill factor lets say the air moving over the intercooler is 30 degrees. the air before the intercooler is lets say 240 degrees, the intercooler will ATTEMPT to cool the air FLOWING through it (remember now that the air doesnt sit in the intercooler it passes through at a very high speed and is only in the intercooler for a very short period of time) to temperature of the air flowing over the intercooler. so it only therefore cools the air flowing through the intercooler by X degrees. so if it cools the air by x degrees you would minus that from the number you started with(240-X=??) starting with a lower number would leave you with a lower number (Turbo vs SC).  Again the Intercooler ATTEMPTS to cool the air.  If it could cool the air to the temperature of the air flowing over it it would be 100% effecient. A intercooler has yet to reach that goal. I dont even think water to air has reached that yet.
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you cant use a fixed number, a intercooler DOES NOT cool by a constant, X is a variable so you cant use a absolute number on any temp. the efficiency of the intercooler will determine how close it will get to the target degree temp. if the outside temp is 80degrees then it will try to cool it to 80 degrees. most air-air intercoolers have 70-75% efficiency;ex: i will use 80 as ambient, intercooler inlet temp= 280, then the air exiting the intercooler is 130, which is pretty good. now with a air/liquid intercooler, you can look for efficiency somewhere in the 80-90 area, some are higher. with 90% efficiency the air exiting intercooler would be around 100degrees. now i will use 330degree intercooler intake temp with 90% efficiency intercooler; the end product is 104 degrees. if you see the difference between the intercooler inlet and outlet temps you will see that the first one i used was cooled by 180 degrees and the second one was cooled by 220 degrees, which are different numbers at the same efficiency.
 
To me that sounds like BS. For one the faster you drive the colder the air gets (not ambient which is the temperature of the standing air) and the more effecient the intercooler. And then your telling me that for ex:

240 inlet temperature> -75% effeciency intercooler (which is variable depending on how fast your moving) and all other things being equal, you will end up with SAME OUTLET TEMPERATURE if you had started out with a 340 inlet temperature?? Cuz thats what you were saying in the other post and thats my whole arguement.


This one's for you
:bs:
 
The only effeciency variable between two exact same intercoolers is the speed/temp of the air moving over them (with everything else being the same). In real world situation there would hundreds of variables. But in a lab/dyno setting where the airflow/ambient temp is controlled (where X is not a variable), a Centrifugical SC intercooled setup would have a definite advantage over a Turbo intercooler setup as for intake manifold temps.
 
i am using air/iquid intercoolers as examples for the 90% b/c its more difficult to run a air/air on sc. the air/liquid dont require any air to go through any fins on the intercooler but have air going past heat exchanger, which is done by the radiator fan. the outlet temps are close enough. get it through your thick ass skull. you are pro-supercharger so just stick wit it, you wont listen to anything i say. the sc would have advantage in making full boost earlier; no real distinct advantages through air intake temps. you dont even understand you are even saying; the intercooler will cool it close to ambient from just about any temp(normally seen), sc or turbo. you are saying intercoolers cool the air by only a certain degree, which is wrong, and you try to state that since the sc has a lower compressor outlet temp it automatically gets much colder air and has good advantage over turbo by just air temp. i suggest you hit the books and learn something on thermodynamics.
 
It's all up to you man, it's what you want for your car. Why even both making a case to modify your own car.... your the one who owns it. lol.
 
:woo:
And i suppose you have a degree in it or something. I think you're just being ignorant and why will it be more difficult to intercool a Centrifugical Supercharger with a air to air intercooler? Cuz you have a lack of imagination and cuz they don't make a kit for it?? And i know how a water-air works.

And Ok in which scenario will the intercooler have a harder job to cool the air to ambient?

300 degrees to "ambient" or
200 degrees to "ambient"??

Its impossible for a intercooler to "work harder" so therefore under the same conditions the 200 degree inlet temp would be cooled closer to "ambient". Period.

So pop a pill, smoke a cig, drink a beer whatever the fuck you do to chill out because your case is still :bs:

Oh sorry i just noticed this.

the intercooler will cool it close to ambient from just about any temp(normally seen)
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Ok oh i see now. thanks for clearing that up for me. Now i know you're full of :bs:
 
no intercoolers dont work harder, they constantly cool it to a certain temp--inlet temp= 300degrees but air cooling it is 80degrees; 200degree inlet air but still 80 degree air cooling it.

btw ive seen a centrifugal sc with an air/air intercooler; but the pipe has hard bends and travels a long distance to one side of the car to the other side; while the regular aftercooler(air/liquid) takes it straight to the manifold.
 
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