D16z6

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:huh: Resleeve a D series block to run 18psi. No. Not neccesary. not even for 20psi. Its not like many drive around running 18psi all the time. But yes, oddly enough, you could. A good friend of mine does. I will be as well soon. Its quite simple really. Im not saying its gonna hit 11's, but i know for a FACT that it hits 12.6(with slick) while in a full interior 1998 4 door. My engine is going into a gutted 1992 Civic Cx. Im not going to argue which engine is better. There's always something better in someone ELSES opinion. The main engine focused in on this site is the B series engine. Sure a little H here, some D there, maybe some K questions nowdays. But lets face it, ya'll love the B. Hell, I do too! Still though, the D is good.

Some good points were made about engine building in this discusion by hexen and some by lsvtec, but some assumptions were made without actually testing or experience. Sleeving for high boost on a b series is plain common sense if you want it to really last, its an aluminum block! But the D is cast Iron(maybe not the norm today, but good for cheap turbo apps), which allows for infact up to 20psi from my experience. Now, that much boost isnt run all the time, I will admit its somewhat lower for normal driving. 18psi to be exact :eek: , for well over a year now with NO problems( I'm not saying dont sleeve it, I'm only saying what can be done).

Now, for what's been done to the engine, most of which were recomended by some of the wiser members of the Hondaswap forum. Forged Pistons (9:1 soon to be droped lower), Forged rods, reground, balanced crank and blueprint, all new gaskets of course. All the misc bolts were also replaced with supirior products. Head work consisted of port/polish, Ferera highlift oversized valves, titanium springs and retainers, and some minor regrinding work to allow for supirior flow. The cams being used i dont remember, but they were of a turbo specific grind. Fuel system- 440cc injectors coupled with a Rising Rate system, 255 highflow fuel pump, and Emanage to name the important aspects. Turbo was a turbonetics T3 for the 12.6 run, now a T3/4 running throuh a massive Spearco Intercooler all using an street type wastegate. List keeps going, but either way its long. All this for less than a similarly built B series as we have one of those being built now(Way more expensive). No radiators were replaced, no axles, no custom transaxle systems used. just a 6 puck with a extreme pressure plate.

It comes down to tuning, and driving for speed. I wont say that you can just build a fast engine. The engine is powerful, the car itself becomes fast, but not without skilled control of the car and ALL its systems. Tuning is also key, it can never be stressed enough. I'm not saying that D is better, I dont think that any are really "better", its how you build it and maintain it. B series has more parts, true, but trust me, D is cheaper, I'm doing it. I did the math before hand, Its costing me about the same as a GSR(sure its close to 3000, plus shipping, good mounts, wiring harness, etc. Though i hear one of our board members can get better deals which I'm more than happy to hear) with full bolt on's, MSD, some sweet $400 rota's with good tires, and maybe an APC stickers or some tire flies to make my ride "Proper"(watch HighRev Tunerz).

We hear "It's just a D series, its not fast" frequently. In the right hands it can be. Anyway, hope that at least show's that its not a pointless endevour. Anyway, I look forward to responses that I'm full of bs, or not(that would be nice). Either way. Good luck building whatever engine you choose. Take your time, do it right, and have fun. :D Oh, and i do plan on posting time slips when two things happen: a) I get my engine installed, broken in and have some tuning time, and B) it stops raining and i can go to the local drag strip and get in some track time.

props to Calesta on the Badass Engine :worthy: . Hope any problems you have are minor and few.
 
Originally posted by asmallsol@Jan 7 2003, 09:27 PM
Then if he dynoed at 500hp, he would be lucky to go down mainstreet without killing someone. You said you want 11's and daily driver out of d16z6. It is never going to happen. A b18b can be "kinda" (brian is doing it and zueke is trying to start) steetable because to get 11's out of it, your not pushing everything to the max, with a d16z6, your going to be braking shit like crazy, tuned or not because the engine is not designed to be a performance engine. Dseries engines are econimicly freindly engines and the d16z6 just has VTEC for that extra little punch. To get 11's out of a d16z6, you pushing that thing to its breaking point and will not go any further.

Lol, thanks for all the advertising asmallsol. Mine will be fully streetable.. I wanna come up to all the local Vettes in the summertime, rev against them and cream them B)

In any case tho, even with my project.. the latest news is that the job got filled, but one of my friends told me he can pull in some favors and get about $15k worth of parts for a very low price.. family owned business.. (Sorry, only parts for me) The only thing I am worried about is that with this impending war, he is part of the reserves I think.. and can't get me the hookup if he is out of the country.
 
Originally posted by JBHonda@Jan 7 2003, 10:17 PM
Vtec was made to replace a turbo.

not at all. vtec = fuel economy.

i paid 1200 for my ls swap complete.

turbo on a d16 will run you way more
 
Damn good deal, but JB honda under cut you by 1050 $ and his drops in withour wiring issues or the need for the purchase of a rear motor mount. Still though, thats a good deal. But i think that part of my post was misleading. It was only meant to give an idea of cost compared to other options.

As for Vtec. It allows more Air volume into the chamber, which is kind of the whole point behind turbo charging...If you tune timing and spark right, Vtec has the potential to be produce better power and response. Not that non- vtec is bad. I know that LS turbo is a badass set up and is more economical for many who dont wish to throw down the pricey cost of a 1.8 liter vtec engine these days. Not to mention you can run larger amounts of boost due to its idea low compression ratio. Hope it serves ya well.
 
the D series is not a cast iron block, it is also an aluminum block and head, the same as the b series. the only cast iron youl find inside is in the rods, crank, and sleeves

i have built a number of D series motors including the A6, ZC, Z6, and they are Ok if your goals are going for 14's, max 13's in a daily driver, of course its possible to hit 11's in a D series, but why unless your trying to set some kinda record.

yes the d16 puts out the same displacement as the b16, but if you line the two stripped blocks next to each other, you would obviously see why the B series is a better choice, the B16 has about one and a half as much mass as a d16. it is very plain to see how much larger the B16 is, its like the difference between a small block and a big block chevy.

ok then lets compare the design of the motors, the D series crank is held in by connected aluminum main bearing caps, or the "main cap crown" which is significantly weaker then the B16 design in which the crank is held in by independent cast iron main bearing caps. Then you have the rods, assuming that you would stick with the stock rods, the d series rods are about as wide as 2 pencils, the b series rods are more along the lines of 3 pencils. then you have the oiling characteristics of the motor, the D series has the simple oil hole that releases oil on to the bearing, the B series, has a small channel engraved into the bearing cap that allows oil to reside there giving it much better oiling characteristics. these along with a number of other little things

Basically the D series are good motors, and they are strong to a point, if you wanna have a slight upgrade in power, then its cool to swap them in and even add some bolt-ons a cam whatever, but when it comes to building a motor for real power, you gotta go B, believe me, i wasted my share of money trying to build the D's, you keep talking about how you got a good deal on this motor, so obviously money is an issue for you, you will put alot more money into trying to have a D series take you to your Target E/T vs a B series, you have to remember, when trying to Build a race motor, the motor itself is gonna be the least of your expenses. an 11 sec daily driven D series... well, some times you have to just learn on your own...i wish you the best of luck, and if you do acomplish that goal, id be the first to give you a pat on the back man. Think about this, the ZC and the D15B SOHC Vtec are both equally the leaders in the best of the D series ( I personally prefer the D15B, the ZC is a piece of crap) with 130 Hp which is still 10 Hp less then the slowest of the B series which is the B18 A/B, and i didnt even mention the trannies, D series trannies are weak, weak, weak, and did i mention how extremely weak they are.

Gary
 
Originally posted by Distorted@Jan 7 2003, 11:24 PM
Some good points were made about engine building in this discusion by hexen and some by lsvtec, but some assumptions were made without actually testing or experience. Sleeving for high boost on a b series is plain common sense if you want it to really last, its an aluminum block! But the D is cast Iron(maybe not the norm today, but good for cheap turbo apps), which allows for infact up to 20psi from my experience. Now, that much boost isnt run all the time, I will admit its somewhat lower for normal driving. 18psi to be exact :eek: , for well over a year now with NO problems( I'm not saying dont sleeve it, I'm only saying what can be done).

Your logic only works if the D series is a closed deck engine, which I don't think (but I am not positive) that it is. If it open deck it doesn't matter what the block is cast from, only what the sleeves are made of. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that the stock D series sleeve can handle 2 twice the boost of the stock B series sleeve.
 
The D series is an Open Deck block, to go 18 PSI with a D16z6, you are gonna need to re-sleeve the block, O ring it, call up SCE and get yourself a copper head Gasket, drop the comp ratio, and plan on either getting a Zdyne, or at the very minimum a V-AFC, thats if you want it to last of course, you could run 30 lbs of boost on a stock Z6 easily with no mods, just make sure you have your cell phone and your AAA card ready, if your a regular member thats ok cause you wont make it 7 miles from your house.

Gary
 
I should have been more specific when i stated cast iron and listed what parts were actually made of it. Thanks for clearing that up HMC. As for running the boost on the engine, 30psi seems a bit much, lol. I know from my experience that 18-20 is doable. I've seen it, I plan on doing it relatively soon once all the aspects of my engine are complete(no im not sleeving it, though I wouldn't be apposed to it). Honestly, i think you should sleeve your engine! I never said dont! I only said you dont neccesarily have too. a V-AFC is needed, along with various other piggyback systems to help your engine from going to hell. Would be even better to get a custom programed stand alone, but we're not trying to go all crazy here. As far as head gaskets, we've had greater success with stock ones. The copper and other aftermarket gaskets gave us way more problems on the D series than the stock ones do. Haven't blown the stock yet, have the copper. Maybe we just recieved a bad copper gasket at the time. The stock tranny and axles are still in use on the D series i've been refering to in my posts. After a year now, no problems.

Rob

:lol:
 
V-AFC (vtec air fuel controller) is a small device that lets you control your air fuel ratio in 500 rpm increments by +/- 50%, distorted is correct in the stand alone system, that would definately be your best option. Buuuuut they are a little on the pricey side

Distorted- Yea, i hear the Z6 Gaskets are pretty strong, im glad to hear that you are doing good with it, i was just exagerating with the 30lbs of boost statement, but i think ya caught that one :D, i totally agree with you that it is not completely neccesary that the block must be sleeved, i just highly recommend it. Ive just blown enough motors to prefer to go the full way when building them you know. If you havnt seen it allready, Summit sells a stackable Gasket kit, made by i think "Mr Gasket Company", it looks kinda cool, it caught my eye.

Gary
 
Do any of you know what vtec is or how it works?
Before you state how great it is first know how it works, it is a higher lift longer duration lobe on the intake cam and more overlap on some exhaust cams depending on year of engine etc.
You get the same effect from new cams for the d that’s right your new are like driving in vtec all the time if you don’t mind the rough idle it works just fine the d is a great engine the 89 tegra cam in a doch form not the zc but just as good. Rods can be purchased from eagle as well as a lot of other manufactures phone theme up and the will have them they just don’t list because there not as popular as the jump on the band wagon b series builders. The sleeves are just fine for 20 psi of boost the rods will go long before the sleeves ever do and yes the d is an open deck aluminum block. The best solution for you low budgeters is to get your rods, pistons and knuckles Cryogenic tempered this is a process that can increases the strength of stock materials and durability buy up to 300% this process is very reasonable in price and only takes two weeks turn around time. onecyro
The d will work just fine but the bottom line is an 11 sec car is not very street able you need slicks and usually the exhaust is to loud to meet local regs.
A turbo and the cryo process will set you back less than 500 bucks if you shop around and do the work your self the cryo will set you back less than 100 bucks so that leaves 400 for turbo parts if you go to the local bone yard you can find all the needed parts for that.
 
Vtec, of course we know what Vtec is, it stands for Very Tempermental Engine Control, doesnt it work by shooting a 50 shot of nos in your cylinders when you hit 5000 rpms or something like that.

The D16A1, and the ZC blow, the design of the motor is very weak

Rods dont go from Boost, they go from detonation, and idiots that dont tune there cars, cylinders and head gaskets go from Boost

cryogenic freezing is for suckers, i have never heard any succesfull stories with it out of all the people i have know to go with it.

I got an Idea, why dont you go out and actuall try and build some motors, before you come in here and question everyones intellegence.

ohh yea before i forget, Vtec is an oil operated system in which as the RPM band gets higher the oil pressure builds up and is and blocked by the vtec solenoid, when the designated RPM is hit the ecu sends a 12V + source to the vtec solenoid releasing the oil in which then travels through the cam cap crown down into the rocker arm assembly which in turn locks up the two rocker arm assemblies and alowing the center rocker arm which is then powered by the Vtec lobe to take over untill the rpms drop(Shift Gears)and the 12v + source is cut off from the solenoid.

Gary
 
Originally posted by hcivic.com@Jan 9 2003, 12:43 AM
Do any of you know what vtec is or how it works?
Before you state how great it is first know how it works, it is a higher lift longer duration lobe on the intake cam and more overlap on some exhaust cams depending on year of engine etc.
You get the same effect from new cams for the d that’s right your new are like driving in vtec all the time if you don’t mind the rough idle it works just fine the d is a great engine the 89 tegra cam in a doch form not the zc but just as good. Rods can be purchased from eagle as well as a lot of other manufactures phone theme up and the will have them they just don’t list because there not as popular as the jump on the band wagon b series builders. The sleeves are just fine for 20 psi of boost the rods will go long before the sleeves ever do and yes the d is an open deck aluminum block. The best solution for you low budgeters is to get your rods, pistons and knuckles Cryogenic tempered this is a process that can increases the strength of stock materials and durability buy up to 300% this process is very reasonable in price and only takes two weeks turn around time. onecyro
The d will work just fine but the bottom line is an 11 sec car is not very street able you need slicks and usually the exhaust is to loud to meet local regs.
A turbo and the cryo process will set you back less than 500 bucks if you shop around and do the work your self the cryo will set you back less than 100 bucks so that leaves 400 for turbo parts if you go to the local bone yard you can find all the needed parts for that.

1. Dude, you are an ass. I am sure you knew, but I just thought I would tell you in case you didn't.

2. There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim that freezing you rods/pistons will do anything expect make them really really cold for an hour or two before you install them. Your link is bunk.
 
LMAO!!!!!!!!!this is just too good. It is funny watching you guys rip people a new asshole.
 
The idea of freezing your rods for strength seems like an easy way out. HondaMotorCo and evreyone else who says you should build your engine is right. I completely agree, I'm building my engine - excluding the sleves - and think there is no other safe or smart way to go about it. As for an 11's car, definetly slicks...the 12.6 ran by our car was on slicks(though it did have full interior, kinda badass). As for that gasket, I like the sound of it. Ill check it out little later when i get back on the boards. Im just skeptical from watching expensive "High performance" headgaskets blow while the stock one still out performs em, but hey...could just be chance.

Good 'ol Vtec

HondaMotorCo

Posted on Jan 9 2003, 12:07 PM
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Vtec, of course we know what Vtec is, it stands for Very Tempermental Engine Control, doesnt it work by shooting a 50 shot of nos in your cylinders when you hit 5000 rpms or something like that.

Honestly, i think all that needed to be said in this post was said right in that quote. Ah well, i need to go buy some tire flies and a Turbo Noise simulator(yes they exist, check summit).

Rob
 
Well now if it is for suckers why is it used buy multi million dollar Winston cup teams?
Are they stupid?
Maybe be if you had the most basic knowledge of chem. you would understand how it works!!
The don’t just freeze the parts the are first heated then frozen
Its not freezing that makes a difference it is the temp drop that causes a difference
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All these sports use it So before you talk about engine building first stop to think has he and yes I have I have built wankel and Hondas and mopars since I could hold an fn wrench The D series have a smaller bottom end that is weaker but with one cyro it can be made to handle the boost he is talking about. Cyro is tested and effective I have used it on my 350 and it has lasted over two years in the truck (I thought it would last two days it is driven buy the little sister?). I have a d series block set to run 14 psi and the only mods are a new ecu (Aftermarket for tune ability) and new injectors but I got the engine cyrod first. The link is here try it again

One Cyro
 
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