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Del Sol track application ??

Discussion in 'HYBRID -> EG-EK / DC' started by SolDriver, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    Ok, I've been searching through the forums for most of the morning for track applications, and I've found tons of "Oh, yeah, gotta boost" posts. Originally when I started thinking about building the Sol up it was going to be a fun semi-dd/weekender, boosting the current D to about 210 whp, 7-8psi on stock internals, until one of my friends took me to a NASA event.

    So, I've switched and I'd like to make the del sol a track car. I don't know much about engines yet (But I am learning rapidly through several forums and books), so I thought I'd ask advice on here.

    Current auto - 95 Civic Del So Si (D16z), 109k, 5 speed. All stock with the exception of short ram and altezza taillights courtesy of the teen I bought it from.

    Goal - Competitive track car. NASA classifies according to mods, weight, etc. so I should be slotted in with other cars near my own level. I understand already about upgrading the suspension, tires, etc. I'd be doing the time trial/time attack races.

    Conditions:
    1) Naturally aspirated. It's been pointed out to me by some of the more experienced racers in the Honda section here in Phoenix that a turbo'd D would probably blow up pretty quick on the track. It'd be fine for dragging, but I'm not going to be dragging.

    2) Fairly close to drop in, if possible, and I'd like to keep the AC/PS, since I will be using this off the track occasionally as well, and no AC in Phx in the summer just sucks.

    I'm still not sure of the difference between horsepower and torque. Torque is how quickly you can accelerate (which would be affected by things like chassis flex), and the horsepower is the upper limit of speed? (Someone described it as torque is how hard you hit the wall, horsepower is how far you go through it)

    Given that, I've been looking at some of the B18 series because of the 127 torque. I like the CRV motor at 133 torque, but I believe because it's classified as a truck motor, it won't pass emissions for street in a Del Sol? I've also looked at the F20B long block, because of the torque/hp/price combo, but I think there is some bay shaving/cutting that has to be done, and you lose the AC/PS? Or can they be relocated?

    In a perfect world, I'd also like it to be around 180-200 whp when all is said and done.

    And the big one, budget. I'd love to keep it under 3000, I'm expecting 4000, and I could stretch and save if it had to be 5000. Since I can race with the stock engine for a while, saving a little while longer to do the swap right would be ok.

    So, given all that, what would be the general consensus on a good swap for the track?

    John
     
  2. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    one of the members on here, his sn is "b16" has a b16 del sol that he races all the time. track legal, full cage all that. he liked the gsr better because it had a little more tq.

    you can get a gsr swap and keep your ac and all that if you get the right parts. It wouldn't take too much and you could stay well under your budget.

    get the gsr, good suspension/brakes/tires.
     
  3. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    Yeah, I've got the suspension covered (Or at least the list done :D ). I did find an interesting post on putting a SiR long block (B16) with a spec R transmission.

    How do you increase torque in an engine? Just higher compression ratios?

    John
     
  4. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    increase displacement and compression.

    b16's came stock in the later del sols. they are easy to get your hands on. look for threads started by "b16". he has some good threads on here.
     
  5. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    Yeah, I'm reading through some of them, thanks! Also dropped him a pm.

    John
     
  6. eg6sir

    eg6sir Supa Mod Moderator VIP

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    i believe he's running a Type R motor, not GSR
     
  7. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    i thought he had a b16 right now. i remember his video saying that he missed the tq. anyways, i'm sure he'll help out.
     
  8. eg6sir

    eg6sir Supa Mod Moderator VIP

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    yes, but he's building an R motor on the side i think
     
  9. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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  10. eg6sir

    eg6sir Supa Mod Moderator VIP

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  11. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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  12. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    before you even think about buying anything, if you want to race nasa - the real deal wheel to wheel - get a rule book.
    don't buy a damn thing until you have a plan for your car, for the class you want to race in, and one that meets your budget.

    then, get your track licenses by taking driving school and a couple hpde's.

    then build the car to spec.
     
  13. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    exactly. if you build your car to how you want it, you may end up going in a class of heavily modified turbo cars. you may also face cars like porche, evo's, skylines, or some other exotic/track only cars.

    you may be modded too much already. who knows.
     
  14. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    Going to observe a NASA event at PIR this weekend, and I'm planning on driving HPDE1 at the event in November. I've already downloaded the rules, and started (somewhat) totaling up the points for what want to do.

    About the only thing I think I'd be interested in would be the Time Trial and Time Attack events.

    John
     
  15. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    Possibly, but all I have is a short ram intake at the moment.

    John
     
  16. B16

    B16 Super Moderator VIP

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    Glad to hear you're getting into NASA events. I did my first one a little over 6 years ago and have been hooked since. I too have a Del Sol, it is a 94 VTEC model that came stock with the B16.

    Before you do any swapping or suspension upgrades, get into HPDE1 and do a couple track days completely stock. The benefit of doing this is you get to feel the dynamics of your car at slower speeds. The cars basic dynamics will remain the same no matter what you do to the car, they just don't become apparent until you're moving at a faster pace on the track. All too many times my students have these highly modified cars that are just too much for them to handle and don't really learn the basics I'm trying to teach them.

    Regardless if you're going to do TT or HC2-0 I would get a GSR/TypeR motor in there. While the B16 is nice, and actually improves my driving (driving a slower car makes you faster! :) ), it does lack torque. The horsepower is nice, but corner exit is all momentum because of the lack of torque. Yes, you want to stay NA. If you go turbo and want to do TT or HC, you'll be way outclassed. Additionally, the track puts a lot of stress on the car and endurance of your car is paramount. If you do any B series swap you can keep your AC and PS. I have both of mine removed.

    As far as the difference between torque and horsepower, I like the saying you mentioned. :) Horsepower shines down the straights, torque gets you going out of the corners. I like to have both. :p

    Again, I say go with a GSR or TypeR motor. Get an LSD, I have an ATS clutch type and I love it. If you feel like spending a little bit more money, get a kaaz or ATS diff, they're more effective than the OEM LSD's.

    For now I'm not yet doing any competitive racing. I've been instructing HPDE with NorCal NASA for 2 years now. The car is almost ready for competition, I still need a fire system in the car. In 08 I plan on starting Time Trials. In 09 I'll start competing in HC1.

    You're right, I've been on the B16 for almost 2 years now. I miss my type R. Like eg6sir said I'm still rebuilding my B18CR (to honda challenge HC1 rules).

    +1 Get the engine from someone reputable.

    Agreed. Although, you can't go wrong by just swapping in a stock GSR motor. You'll still be very competitive in TT or HC.

    The rules aren't too tight with TT or HC. Although, its nice to know Andrie Haritanto in his K24 civic is running the same laptimes as the modded evo's. :)

    This is good that you're doing this. Look for components that give you the least amount of points to stay in the lowest class possible for TT. You do want to have as much tire as you can fit, and the best suspension you can get.

    Let me know if you have any other specific questions. I love chatting about this stuff. :)
     
  17. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    I'll pm you the build list I'm putting together later today. Thanks for the input!

    I will definitely be getting track time before I get anything upgraded. I've got about 1k saved up, so it's going to be a little bit before I do all this. What I would like to do before the November meet is get the shocks/springs upgraded (I've got a line on a set of tokico blues with tein s-techs for $250), and new rimes/tires. That's about as far as I'll go until I'm ready to do the swap. I want to take a week off from work and just do everything at once with the exception of paint/interior.

    Just took a quick look, there are a few salvage yards around the Phx area that have some GSR motors. Got a guy at work here that can go with me and check them out as well.

    I'll drop you the planned list this evening sometime. Thanks again!

    John
     
  18. eg6sir

    eg6sir Supa Mod Moderator VIP

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    tokico blues are not track worthy shocks.. i wouldnt waste your money on them
     
  19. B16

    B16 Super Moderator VIP

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    I would have to agree here.

    I suggest some off the shelf Koni's and ground controls with Eibach springs. This setup will last you a few years, until you get into TT and really want to get competitive, then upgrade again. Plus, it will be eaiser to resell the Koni/Eibach's when you're done with them. The STech springs are really just show springs.

    I'm running on some very old Tein HA coilovers. I desperately need to upgrade, thats what I'm saving my money on now.
     
  20. SolDriver

    SolDriver New Member

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    So, a set of Koni yellows and Ground Control coilovers, I'm looking at around $600 from ebay? Not bad.

    eBay Motors: GROUND CONTROL CIVIC/DEL SOL/INTEGRA COILOVERS LOWERING (item 250171837058 end time Oct-09-07 12:04:45 PDT)
    eBay Motors: Koni Yellow Sport Shocks 92-95 Civic 94-01 Integra NIB (item 270172836691 end time Oct-10-07 14:49:57 PDT)

    John
     
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