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Don´t want to waste my money...

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by drbelanger73, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. drbelanger73

    drbelanger73 Beer is good for you.

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    I have $3000 to put into my B18C1. I was wondering if some of you all could advise me on my purchases so as to make the most out of this opportunity.

    I was fortunate enought to aquire a 5spd ´94 GS-R with a running B18C1 engine for very little cash. From what i remember (picking up car tomorrow) a Fluidyne radiator and an AEM cold air intake have been added, along with a Greddy short shifter. Having never stood next to an Integra before i cannot tell if it has acutally been lowered an inch and a half or not. Little rocket cars are not popular in Maine and it seems one or two kids have worked on this before it passed to me. Still, beyond the spray can yellow paint job, it is in rather good shape.

    In addition i acquired a spare head (with valves and springs) and both cams. I was told these are the type R cams. I have never seen the inside of this engine so all i could do was nod. From my inspection of the cams one has B and 7 stamped on opposite sides and the other a C and S. Beyond that i have no idea how to identify just what these things actually are. If anyone could help me with that i would be most thankful.

    As for the rest of the project my head is swimming with thoughts. I have seen whole articles on Cam and valve combos, boring, sleeving, turbos, all-motor, compression ratios, boost levels, porting, polishing, and well you get the point. I would like to make the most of this opportunity.

    As far as technical ability i am an Electronics Technician (ET2 for you Navy folks) by trade. Growing up i have assisted my father tear into, and then tore into on my own many many different vehicals. The deepest i have been into the engine is a timing chain and a head gasket though. Still, I have the factory service manual, several books on honda performance, a wrench in both hands, a big grin on my face, and an unshakeable belief that i can figure it out eventually. And yes we have a family car to drive after i totally disable this one...

    Desired End Result:
    I would like to build a responsive street car that can get through the city with authority and take off like a shot on the highway. I do not forsee myself racing along at 8000rpms scraping for that last bit of speed (that old Cake song comes to mind...). I might take it down to NH just to see what she can do wide open but that is the extent of the racing i would do.

    Direction One: All Motor
    My first thought its to forgo forced induction and rebuild the internals of the engine itself. I have looked at the stroker kits from Crower (half my budget alone), cams from many a source (Crower, Skunk, Type-R) along with various valve train set ups, and associated gears, fuel regulators, pressure regulators, and Hondata electronics. I need to enable the tuning end of the vehical as much as i need to provide some clay to be molded, or so this is my theory.

    Direction Two: Forced Induction
    It seems a totally different internal build is required to enable an optimal turbo set up; this or the aftermarket spin doctors got me hook line and sinker. I have read that the axels can only handle around 200 horse so perhaps i need to upgrade. Also i have read that the block needs to be sleeved in order to handle high boost levels. There seem to be a great many technical issues involved with this engine, some folks suggest the LS set up is the better of the two for Turbo. As for a supercharger, everbody seems to say skip it and go turbo. What about both :D!!!

    Truly i have no idea what is required to hit different numbers. Stock hp is listed around 170 or so. What is involved to hit 200, 250, 300, 350? All i know for sure is i´m not installing Nitro, i do need to drive this thing.

    Right now its cold as, well Maine in December. We have a foot or so of snow on the ground and a Nor´easter headed in Sunday night. I might just invest the money for a couple months while i decide exactly what i will set out to do. Any thoughts would be welcome. I´m sure many of you have had the coulda shoulda wouldas and there is likely a great deal i can learn out there.

    thanks

    derek
     
  2. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Well, it seems you have done some reading, but you really should do more. I read for about 2 years before jumping into my project.

    The GSR is a really great platform for boost. Decent compression ratio and strong internals. There are GSR's out there that have made 350 whp on stock internals. So, my recommendation to you is boost it. $3,000 will get you a decent turbo setup. You could hit 300whp fairly easily with a t3/t4 setup. You could piece together your own turbo kit. Spend considerably less on the actual parts, and see the same if not better results in the end. Start with the manifold/turbo combination.

    Read up on boosted GSR setups as I'm sure there are tons out there. One quick search on ebay for GSR Turbo Kit yields this:
    eBay Motors: Greddy Trust Turbo kit Acura INTEGRA GSR 96 99 TDO5H-18 (item 200183170870 end time Dec-17-07 21:56:04 PST)

    2,100. Thats a good start. 18g is a nice turbo. It will spool quick and provide adequate power for what you are looking for. You can always upgrade in the future.

    Most will tell you to ditch the E-Manage and get something like Hondata, CROME, Uberdata, Neptune, etc. These are all really great tuning programs and the choice boils down to what you want.

    Again, do some searching around this forum, and join other forums. You will learn way more than you could ever imagine by just reading.
     
  3. nootrac22

    nootrac22 Well-Known Member VIP

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    BLAAST PERFORMANCE - CUSTOM TURBO CHARGING
    there kits come with quality parts at reasonable prices. easier for me to buy a kit. with my luck I'd have the car apart to put the turbo on and would have forgotten to order something.
     
  4. drbelanger73

    drbelanger73 Beer is good for you.

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    I should mention this engine is up in the 100k range for mileage. To my knowledge it has had a head gasket done, but that is all that has been spoken of. I have this vision of adding a turbo and the whole thing blowing apart on me :eek:. Since i would likely have to rebuild it are the internals still going to be up to the task of a turbo?
     
  5. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Replace the rings. Main rod and thrust bearings and you will be just fine.

    Prolly around 150 if you do that yourself, to have a shop do it is going to be really expensive.
     
  6. 99sidude

    99sidude Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Supercharge it! It makes for one hell of a responsive car on the street, and it will be fast on the highway. It just won't make as much power as a turboed gsr.
     
  7. vtecsir1

    vtecsir1 Senior Member

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  8. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Lol, damn you blanco. I forgot to add in the price of the rings. But arent ACL bearings cheaper than OEM Honda? I have seen some sets go for like $70 on ebay.
     
  9. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Oh, I see :). You get what you pay for.

    Engine building is definately something you dont want to be saying "close enough" in. Thats a very bad term to use when you have something turning 7500 RPMs +
     
  10. MaxxBoost

    MaxxBoost New Member

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    Sounds like you're going for drivability over sheer all out performance...

    For 3000 I'd go all motor, seeing as a Turbo Set up requires a significant amount of on and around the motor upgrades to put it all to the ground smoothly, and safely, with minimal chances of failure on the short term.

    Axles, Suspension, Tires, Programming..all the shit comes to mind...

    I'd go B16, Set up for v-tech. Forged High Compression Pistons, Cams, camshafts, Flywheel, Pulleys, Valves (I'm running Titanium Valves on my B20), Injectors, MSD with a strong programming on the ECU and don't forget a Type-R oil pump (Seeing as I'm not going into detail on measurements and brands, this set up, well built, will give you near 10,000RPM or better on the Max Rev with Low 9's on the redline, perfect if you wanna push a v-tech controller, and KEEP the stock Kick in Setting (Dropping where the V-Tech kicks in, without changing the stock camshafts is foolish, and only hurts the motor in the long run, the aggressive cams function best at stock setting). You may be thinking why keep it there, or push it higher after all that, but keep in mind you're going for reliability and driveability, and with the mods behind it the car's gonna chew 1-5000rpm's apart even without WOT, you'd be hitting V-Tech by mistake on casual driving

    With 3,000, and some careful shopping, you'd pay more for the actual labor, if you haven't acquired the swap before hand.
     
  11. drbelanger73

    drbelanger73 Beer is good for you.

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    Thank you all for your input it is appreciated.

    I got the car in the garage a couple days ago. I finally managed to get the crappy hex bit lugs off and mount her up on jacks. This in a garage with a wooden floor that may have been built for a horse is another matter; ahh the New England charm...

    She is in rough shape, kind of reminds me of my dog hanging her ears after a scolding. I will post up some picks in another thread in a different section. As for driving it, well, one tire was bald down to the steel frame right down the center...

    I have plenty of work to do on this old girl to restore her dignity. I'll be reading about engines and pouring through the forum in the meantime. Knowledge is power and I'm gonna invest the money til the summer, or til i feel ready for the challenge. My "garage" is really a wooden barn for a car and not all that pleasant to work in during January in Maine.

    The first task i will attempt is a new clutch. We will see how that goes.

    Bah humbug and ty again.
     
  12. MaxxBoost

    MaxxBoost New Member

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    Round of applause for the prick with far to much time on his hands, and is over-shooting the potency of his authority..

    MY B20 doesn't rev out to 10,000, nor did I state such, however, proof of a 10,000RPM monster in an all motor b16 VTEC existing can be found in the garage 2 doors down from mine, if you're close...i'll set you two up, and you can get introduced to it's tail lights for the entirety of the 1/4 mile hello.

    To speak as if an upgrade in camshafts, by grade, wouldn't boost the redline or max-revv is stupidity, especially in a motor that's power theorum is BASED ON HIGH REVVING, and an aggressive camshaft WORKS BEST at high-revs where they are intended, Aggressive cams at low-range causes looping, something dragsters do when the driver stages at the line, but less pronounced, and thus rough idle and the relative. All internals properly upgraded, head to block, with proper, racing oil-pump set up, will allow a Sky-High push, keep reliability, and make sick use of VTEC, the way it's intended....IN A B16 SETUP..which is in my opinion, the most reliable, durable and streetable when compared to an LS-VTEC or even a GSR, and is definately more reliable and durable then a B20 anyday.

    Lemmie guess, you have yours kicking in at what..4500 or bettter on stock cams like an asshole?
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2007
  13. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Maxxboost, seriously.

    Do you own built GSR, LS-VTEC, B16, B20, and B20-VTEC powered cars? Have you owned them for years?
    If not, how would you know which is the most reliable/durable?
     
  14. MaxxBoost

    MaxxBoost New Member

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    I currently own a Race Ready B20-VTEC TURBO, and an all motor high-compression B16-VTEC with experience in building and racing every motor along the course of at least 7 years, not to mention that my group currently runs 2 LS-VTEC Turbos with the last member having a GSR, out of all of them...the B16 Has given the least problems, is the most reliable and easiest to fix in light of having suitable performance.
     
  15. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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  16. drbelanger73

    drbelanger73 Beer is good for you.

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  17. drbelanger73

    drbelanger73 Beer is good for you.

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    I finally acquired the GS-R about a week ago. I think the previous owner should be flogged for spraypainting just about everything in sight. The whole body, the underside of the hood, the insides of the doors, the engine bay; and on top of that, it wasn't even done well. He even managed to get the headlights and all the glass :censored:!!!

    I'm afraid to look at how he lowered the thing (and chewed his tires to scrap). Its a crime. I won't even tell you how many machine screws I found driven through the thing in various places, i don't want to induce any trauma. I bought it to tear apart as much as I did to rescue it. I feel like I took in a beaten dog...

    Still, once i get the snow tires mounted I'm gonna take it for a spin and see what it has. Probably the wisest advice I saw. I've got plenty of body work and general restoration to do til spring time. The upside is that i dont have to worry about getting the thing filthy in the snow and salt quite yet.

    I'm not going to touch the engine yet. I've got a spare head and a set of cams (that i still can't ID) for the B18C1. I saw a JDM B20B available for about 500 USD from this place in quebec.

    Has anyone heard anything bad about TokyoMotorImports?

    I've been thinking about getting this engine and makeing a Frank out of it. That way I will have a car to drive while I learn how to build an engine. I've read many posts on the topic here on the forum. It sounds rather intimitading but I've always been the type to learn by jumping over my head and swimming back up.

    From what I researched (ok from what I read on Wikipedia) the compression ratio on a B20B is 8.8:1 which would be something I could generously dump boost into. I also looked at the Edelbrock Turbo Kit (pn#1505). Being that it alone is over three grand I will also be saving my money until the spring...

    One last question, I wasn't quite sure where to post it...

    What is a B18C1 without a tranny worth anyhow?
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2007
  18. 93civicracer

    93civicracer Oh, I do a little here and there.

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    The GSR tranny is worth around $600-1000 depending where you get it and condition/mileage.
     
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