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Engineers Needed

Discussion in 'Members' Lounge' started by wanderinman, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. wanderinman

    wanderinman Senior Member

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    Article in the back of Road and Track had a drawing from a mental institution where a guy proposed to power a convential motor using electro-magnets inside of the pistons essentially using magnetic force in place of explosive force. The "power control module" was toted to be a generator/controller telling which magnets to be energized and I guess deriving some amount of power back from the crank.

    To be honest I guess it would be feasable to move a car using something like this, but definitely not by any means a valid way to replace gasoline.

    We already have magnet driven motors, its called every electric motor on the market.
     
  2. Celerity

    Celerity Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I could go on and on about the input being more powerful than it's output - but compare a rail gun a conventional potato gun.. the rail gun is far more efficient and powerful.
    And linear forces translate into rotational forces very well when in terms of reciprocating machines.

    So hey, who am I to say. I've been starting to believe that this stuff may in fact work. You may need to power it with a handcrank but it will definately output "something" at the crank.
     
  3. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    i think it would involve a type of current timer or actuator. something that precisely sends the power from your power source to the magnet. it would have to be set to deliver a perfect amount of energy for the exact amount of time. sort of like a pulsating power charge that goes on and off to raise and lower the piston.
     
  4. wanderinman

    wanderinman Senior Member

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    Yes, I agree the timing would be key. I just dont think you could derive enough efficiency out of the motor to really call it a worthwhile motor. You can get a car down the highway by pushing it too, but I dont see anyone pushing that doesn't have to.
    ::shrugs::
     
  5. pills_PMD

    pills_PMD Super Moderator

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    the problem is the magnets required to do it

    a refrigerator magnet won't do it

    you'd need some crazy ass samarium cobalt magnet with a ridiculous amount of electricity... but where is the electricity coming from?? now we have to add a fuckload of batteries in the car and add weight.



    ... and get_nick... thanks for me making the sig!
     
  6. Celerity

    Celerity Well-Known Member

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    You've belonged to a Ford forum, have you
     
  7. Airjockie

    Airjockie Watanabe Whore!!!

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    just make the pistons out of huge magnets like hard drive magnets, and make the head an electromagnet. IT could be possible in any engine. And use a flywheel with two starters, one for forward start, and one for rear start. have them wired to the trany, and use it for speed adjustment.

    The only reason it can't be done...is the magnets would have soo much pull, machining them in the normal methods we have today would chop fingers off. Try to put a magnet the size of the piston on a con rod...you cant do it unless you got nerves of steel, and a grip like superman. but if the moving parts and block was forged bullit alum, then it might be possible. But once you get going...it might not have enough fricton or drag to control it.I can see a decent inline 6 cyl a perfect match..since 2 pistons are fully up, 2 pistons are fully down, and 2 pistons are half throw.
     
  8. wanderinman

    wanderinman Senior Member

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    Nope, why do you say that?
     
  9. ScrapinSi

    ScrapinSi Senior Member

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    Because you talked about pushing cars down the highway...

    Yes, I think this is possible... If the chambers of the head were somehow electromagnetic (Individual for each cylinder), and the pistons were strong magnets, you could turn on a magnet to pull 2 pistons up, then turn them off and turn the other 2 on, and the throw will cause the rotation.

    Would it be efficient? I doubt it... Is it possible? Sure.
     
  10. Celerity

    Celerity Well-Known Member

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    What would power the magnets ?

    Lets do some simple "Math made stupid" here.

    Lets say the system was a 96 volt system. And each magnet (Cylinder) needed a 20 amp punch to push the piston down. Powering the magnets on the push would require 2.6 hp from a ... I dunno.. Gasoline powered generator. There would be about a 20% efficiency (or 80 percent loss) on the first rotation until the other pistons got magnetised. From there, the pistons getting magnetised will cause the efficiency to drop. In about 100 or so turns of the crank, the motor would seize because the power keeping them attached to the top of the stroke would be the same as the power trying to push them down. Reciprocating forces aren't the way to go.

    Now a rotational force is a way to go. Attach generators at each wheel and power them with a gasoline motor. Now you're talkin.

    And with modern day motors, wiring and battery / capacitor technology you've got a Prius with no motor. Top speed is about 25 mph and you better make sure it's an hour because that gasoline motor, without being a V8 attached to a generator, is going to run at about 40 hp (guessed) to turn those motors at each wheel . Electric motors have over 3000 lbs/ft (in high end apps) at rest, but at 1 RPM start their steady and dramatic drop to 3 or 4 lbs ft.

    Either way you end up with a golf cart with a kohler generator lashed to the back of it.

    You wouldn't believe how much energy is stored in a single carbon molecule released into an explosion. It's tough to keep up with that. I mean, this method of hybrid MAY very well come to light, but the losses in the system are horrendous. And ultimately, something has to produce that electricity. At best you're talking wind generators (Like Dutch wind generators) and if you dotted the entire US with them you may have enough to fuel industry, tourism and commuting.

    Steam created from microwave energy is a far better way to go. Don't we have someone here from Purdue University ?
     
  11. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Dumb idea. Too much mass, too much wasted motion (reciprocating), too many moving parts, too much circuitry/programming to make it all work...

    Just run a conventional motor with the same amount of power it would take to push all those parts around and you'll have WAY more output than approximating a gasoline engine with electrical components. Why build a motor to power an engine model so that you can power a transmission? Skip the engine model/mockup.
     
  12. Airjockie

    Airjockie Watanabe Whore!!!

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    Not to pull the magnetic pistons up, but to repel them away from the head, since there is proper piston to head clearance in any car, the same would work, as soon as the mag piston would get to the apex of the crank throw, zap the head with a small amount of electrical to repel the super mag piston down, and thus turning the crank. It would be in essance a 2 stroke engine, six pistons made from super magnets like the ones found in hard drives, and the cylinder walls will also be lined with a thin layer of opposite charged steel, to center the piston perfectly and to not allow any friction to happen, the head will just have a simple electro magnet set up and that really wont require to much power to operate, since it will only need to be charged for every other stroke....take the charging system from the Insight to act as the same induction charging system. And like before stated, use a seperate started to rotate the engine, one for forward movement, and one for reverse movement. pop the trany in nuetral and the electromagnetic head will be killed, so the engine would stop. Ship the tranny like a normal car, gears and all. If the magnets were perfectly balanced, sized, machined, and the wiring set up to work in a simple mode...it is very possible. The object is to just rotate the crank like a gas engine would. F=MA
     
  13. VTECin5th

    VTECin5th Administrator

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    Damn, i actually had this idea when i was like 10 and i can remember telling my friend about it and he told me some story about a train that does something with magnets....
    My theory is in this GIF i made.
    One time in junior high we had 3 kids hang on an electromagnet about the size of a hockey puck wired with one D battery before it would come loose from what it was holding.
    Now i don't get why you couldn't change the polarity at the top of the combustion chamber to push/ pull?
    I know that at even 1.5V DC (how many amps is a D battery?) pushing N+N will create plenty of push and using 1.5vDC pulling N+S together can pull from plenty away, especially if the crank is on it's rotation due to the #1/#3 or #2 #4 on it's downstroke from the push/push.
    Steve, fill me in on why this won't work?
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Citizen_Insane

    Citizen_Insane Senior Member

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    it would work...but like mike said, its pointless b/c a standard electric motor will be WAY more efficient.

    useless, move on.
     
  15. pills_PMD

    pills_PMD Super Moderator

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    what about the forces between the magnets repelling each other.. stressing the cylinder wall...

    pointless
     
  16. GSRCRXsi

    GSRCRXsi Super Moderator Moderator VIP

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    i know its pointless but how about this. run current through a coil and you get a magnetic feild in one direction or the other (depending on which way the current flows). so just use some steel pistons and have the cylinders containing a massive coil. and you can alternate the current flow. this would actually pull the pistons up on the upstroke while the others are being pusshed down. also shouldnt have any magnetic repulsion since the feilds all act parallel to each other. i realize it would take too much current and electricity to be feasable but still a neat idea i think.
     
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