1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

F23A1 to H23A swap throwing Cel

Discussion in 'HYBRID -> BA-BB /CA-CD' started by lithiumus, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. alterdcreations

    alterdcreations Member

    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Location:
    Gettin lost in N.Y.
  2. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2007
  3. tab

    tab Super Moderator

    Messages:
    3,839
    Likes Received:
    46
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Location:
    Aberdeen, Washington State
    Holy wiring and soldering batman.

    Best of luck dude. You come across as intelligent, so I'm sure you'll figure this out. You gotta love wiring diagrams, programming, repinning, and immobilizers. Wow.

    You might be able to trick the immobilizer with an alarm system bypass meant for starting only. Usually, the bypass is only active during remote start, but I'm sure you could wire it in to run full time if you wanted/needed. You probably won't need to do this since you're obviously switching immobilizer boards back and forth.
     
  4. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Thanks Tab!

    I read my first few posts and I realize how far I've come. Definitely a learning experience and I feel much more informed now. Most of my projects tend to be pretty interesting!

    Had to use a combination of the solder sucker and a solder wick to desolder both HIC370 Immobilizer boards. I've ordered an OBD2b Wire harness extention from Boomslang but asked that they leave all the wires unpinned so I can properly convert from EDM OBD2b to USDM OBD2b.

    I'll post another update to the saga once the harnesses arrive and I can sort out the O2 and Evap / EGR issue. It looks like the Euro Type R has less emissions functions than the USDM Accord so I'll use the Type R ECU with my PAA Immobilizer but if the PAA is better equiped to pass emissions, I'll swap back along with the immobilizer to perform the tests. Also, if I ever need to reprogram my keys at the Honda dealer, I'll also swap back so I won't run into issues with an EDM ECU and potentially the Honda dealer overwritting the EDM code with USDM code...
     
  5. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Update...

    I recieved harness extension from Boomslang and wired up the ATR PDE ECU properly. It started with no problem and drove much better. I was affraid to go too hard but I did get the revs up to 6k at one point and it sounded and felt pretty smooth.

    The only issue is that the ECU is detecting a misfire if I throttle too hard or when the RPM pass above the 3k mark. The check engine light flashes and when I ease up, it goes away. With prolonged driving, I still get the original Random misfire code that I got from the PAA ECU.

    I don't think that the PDE H22A7 ECU will run my H23A VTEC engine. I've been mulling over it on the weekend and I was considering going back to OBD1 to save money and make things easier but my main issue is passing emissions and enabling the EGR. The other alternative is to get an AEM standalone and properly tune it. Here are my options as I see it, LMK what you guys think...

    1. Have my mechanic convert my 3 wire IACV to an OBD1 2 wire IACV, swap out the 5 wire EGR with a vacuum controlled 4 wire EGR, use the P30 ECU and get it dyno tuned. Obtain a P13 ECU for emissions testing. My concern is that the P13 will not run my engine properly and I will fail emissions.

    2. Obtain an AEM stand alone and properly dyno tune the engine. It will cost more, but I can likely play with the AEM and get all of the emissions hardware functioning properly. I will also have my original PAA ECU that will likely pass emissions as is.

    Any comments?
     
  6. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Going the AEM + UEGO route. Why keep messing around? Plus at this moment, I have 2 OBD2b ECUs that work and can get me on the road if I run into initial setup issues. When all is done, I'll put up a new thread and post pictures of the swap.
     
  7. 98lx

    98lx New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Any update on your project?

    I'm very interested in doing the same swap in my 98 accord auto with f23a vtec engine. I searched all over the web and you seem to be the only one who have done this in a 6th gen accord. My questions is if I get h23a vtec w/ OBDII and fwd auto tranny, will it be a much easier swap? After reading your posts I realize the air intake and exhaust pipe have different size between h23 and f23. How do you solve these problems? In another thread you've also mentioned the driver size engine mount is slightly different? Are there any other issues you may think of?
     
  8. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Hey 98LX, Thanks for the little push... I've done quite a bit since my last post but I felt like I was hearing crickets every time I did a post since nobody really seems too interested... I've got some answers to your questions and updates.

    Let me answer your questions first.


    If you are staying auto, your life will be MUCH easier! You will be able to use the OEM ECU and my guess is that all the ECU and tuning issues will go away and you'll be in a position much like a stock swap over. That would be the best way to go since that motor does NOT come in a manual tranny.

    The intake is an easy fix, just use a Prelude AEM CAI or Prelude Short ram intake and you'll be ok. The CAI will have no mount point so you'll have to be creative. I'm still trying to think of something better than just resting it on some shop rags.

    The JDM exhaust is a 4-2-1 like the Prelude exhausts. My mechanic just welded it directly to my cat and from the cat and back, it's my stock 2 1/4" thin Accord pipes. It's not ideal but I'll upgrade those when I've sorted the rest of my issues out. I'll likely get the exhaust custom fabriacated by my mechanic so it's optimized. It's the headers I don't want to blow big bucks on but I may need to if I want to do it right.

    I've got to talk to my mechanic to see what he did with the driver's side mount. It looks like the motor mounts are from the JDM motor but I'm not sure what he did on the Accord chassis side. I'm getting some vibrations at 60 mph that I can feel in the steering wheel and most of the front end but that may be my alignment, it goes away at about 70 mph.

    The Power steering pipe was cut and welded to the Accord piece to match it up. The Primary O2 sensor had to be relocated just in front of the Cats. I just realized that he didn't swap over my IAB vacuum canister, check valve or solenoid. So I'm going to ask him to get me those parts so I can activate this. Right now it stays closed when the car is off. It closes when the car is on but since all the controlling equipment is gone, it just stays closed rather than opening up at 4900rpm. I'll have to find a place to mount all of the parts but it's either that or get an ATR H22A7 intake manifold without IABs. One more thing to mention about the ECU was that there were several pins that were relocated between the PDE ECU and the PAA ECU that I may have mentioned before. This will likely be the case for the PCF ECU. Unfortunately, you'll need to obtain an JDM Service Manual to be sure...

    I believe those were the only real issues aside from the ECU debacle in the Manual Tranny swap...
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2007
  9. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I recived the AEM ECU with UEGO earlier this month. I decided to take on the tuning myself. I don't mind spending the time to do it and I wanted to learn. I could probably pay someone but from my experience up to now with the AEM, there will always be things that you cannot tune properly with a simple "day at the Dyno" session other than optimizing the power output and possibly the startup issues.

    One thing that I'm having trouble with are the Cold Starts and in fact the warm starts are not that good either...

    The AEM is awesome. You have so much control over what happens it's scary. I'll have to say that you MUST proceed with EXTREME caution. "Don't try this at home, kids"... I've spent almost a month with over 40 driving data logging sessions and over 15 start up logging sessions and I'm still not anywhere near where I want or need to be... but I've learned so much. Making small changes and seeing the results is very satisfying.

    The AEM fits perfectly in the stock location. I thought it would be too big, but it's perfect in the Accord. I have an external UEGO controller that I installed that in the engine bay. I ran the Power and Ground directly from the battery. I used the O2 heater power trigger from the stock O2 harness to trigger the UEGO power relay. I send the 5v UEGO O2 signal back through the OEM O2 harness which goes directly back to the AEM. Getting proper AFR info while driving and tuning is absolutely manditory.

    I started slow and I always monitor my knock sensor voltages to ensure that I'm not doing any harm to the engine. I stayed under 2000 rpm for the first little while and slowly move up to 3000. Highway tuning, street tuning, light accel tuning, idle tuning, etc... I've gotten up to 4000 rpm now and there is excellent torque and power between 3000 and 4000. The IABs are anoying as my mechanic didn't close them fully trying to make it a "best of both worlds" static IAB setup but if your MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) is over 35-40 Kpa between 1500 - 3000, the IAB's make a whistling sound.

    I'm now working on getting the start up perfect i.e. start like stock. Right now it cranks (grinds twice) and then catches. Proably doing some damage to my starter... I'm not sure that the startup spark / fuel inj timing is optimal. The OEM ECUs start perfectly. I've flooded the engine tuning starting and had to put an OEM ECU in to start and clear out the gas / warm up the car.

    Emissions! Yes, I passed it... I tuned the AEM to pass Emissions.

    My emissions was overdue and everyone who I talked to said to use one of the OEM ECUs to pass emissions. I knew that the EDM PDE (H22A7) ECU would be less likely to pass so I went with my USDM PAA (F23A1) ECU. Unfortunately the ECU throws a code if you hold a 3000 RPM which is what is required for 30-60 seconds in 2nd gear @ 40 KPH on a dyno. Once a code is thrown on a Honda ECU, you are done. It goes into limp mode and begins to dump fuel for safety and since the Idle portion of the Emissions testing in Canada follows the load test, going into limp mode under load is ok but once you come back to idle, you will fail as the AFR it too rich. The guys at the shop were cool and let me try it again and even let me clear the code right before it goes to idle, but the idle just can't burn it all in the time given.

    I had the AEM but I was nowhere near being able to tune for emissions. I came back 2 weeks later after enabling my EGR and tuning my fuel maps so that all low load driving (cruising) would be 14.7 AFR. Enabling the EGR richens the entire fuel map so I had to fine tune everything to 14.7. I turned on O2 feedback and set it to maintain 14.7. I paid the shop for an hour of diagnostic time and put my car on the dyno with the exhaust sensors so we could monitor the HC, CO and NO in real time.

    I had to do quite a bit of EGR tuning and re-tuning of my fuel maps and took almost the full hour to get it right. We passed with flying colors.

    Load test @ 40 KPH / 3000 RPM (30 seconds min / 60 seconds max)
    HC = 13 ppm (62 ppm to pass)
    CO = 0.00% (0.35 % to pass)
    NO = 314 ppm (467 ppm to pass)

    Idle Test
    HC = 11 ppm (150 ppm to pass)
    CO = 0.00 % (0.70 % to pass)

    NO was not required for idle tuning but I tuned for that anyway and it would have been down to about 150 ppm. Though I know that the EGR can rob power and most tuners block it off... after my tuning session and realizing how much I had to lean out my fuel map, I'm going to incorporate my emissions tuning so I can save on gas at cruising loads.

    The AEM allowed me to control the EGR via RPM and allowed me to set the duty cycle and max duty and I varied it on the Emissions Diagnostic dyno in real time to get the emissions down.

    One thing I can say... without an EGR, you will NOT pass emissions in Canada unless your car has some other means of reducing NO output. I had to tune my EGR to run at 91% duty to pass emissions. The EGR really gets a workout...

    I will eventually get to a dyno and tune for power but for now, I'll tune for Air Fuel Ratios that make the most sense with street driving and fine tune the existing maps.

    Another thing that makes me glad that I eventually went with an AEM, is it's ability to custom control various things as long as they are connected. I can change the coolant temp when the fan comes on and off. The EVAP systems in the Accord are wired up but but disabled by default on the AEM. I referred to the Service manual and enabled them all. I can control these switches by MAP load, RPM, Coolant temp, vehicle speed and any combination. i.e. I have my EVAP purge activated only above 2000 RPM with loads over 40 Kpa (usually accelerating) with Coolant temp above 75 and Vehicle speeds over 25 Kph. I do this as the EVAP purges fuel vapor from the fuel tank which richens the AFR which is best done during accelleration so I don't have to add more fuel to my fuel maps... Awesome!

    I'm going to have my engine bay cleaned and I'll post up some pics. I've got some posts on the AEM forums if anyone wants to see how I configured the EGR functionality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2007
  10. hondarin

    hondarin Please enter a value using 50 characters or fewer. VIP

    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    129
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Location:
    Texas; where else?
    wow, that's a lot of good info on the AEM. keep it up, and let us know how everything turns out :)
     
  11. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I've been able to get the car started reliably by increasing the Crank Advance from 10 degrees to 17. The car still starts a little rough though. I tried 19 degrees and it would not start. No grinding noises but definitely too far. I dialed it back to 16 degrees and though is still slightly rough (not bad at all, close to OEM) it's got a nice rev up to 2000 when it kicks in.

    I'm now working on ensuring that the car does not stall when driving slowly in neutral. The AEM has provisions for AC so that the car does not stall when the additional AC load is activated... but it does not have any provisions for Power Steering and the load that it causes on the engine, esp. when parking / idle.

    Last night, I tuned my fuel maps and fuel trims so that my AFR is about 12.5 if the idle dips under my 800 RPM idle setting and if the load goes up. I did this tuning by holding the RPM at 2000 - 2500, letting it go (while parked) and turning the wheel hard when the RPM dips to 1000. The additional load causes the RPM to continue to drop and stall. So far, the 12.5 AFR has not allowed me to stall my car so I hope this is the magic key!

    I'll have to do some driving tests... i.e. approaching a mall entrance, quick decel, going into neutral and turning the steering wheel hard. This usually equates to a stall.

    One thing I did confirm 100% is that a sharp increase in ignition timing in attempts to recover a low idle, will result in a stall. I made the ignition correction gradual and allowed the fuel to get nice and rich, and so far seems to have done the trick.

    All the things that you take for granted in an OEM ECU, now must be programmed. I actually enjoy it, but my wife is very annoyed as this is my daily driver and she refuses to drive it until I've ironed out all the issues. You always have to keep in mind, this is a fully stand-alone engine mangement system and you can't expect it to work like an OEM ECU out of the box.

    Once all of these little things are taken care of, I'll try to get some dyno time. Dyno time is usually really expensive because the tuner comes along with it. I plan to just pay for pure dyno time and I'll do the tuning or at least at a reduced cost.

    The challenge is deciding what to tune for. I have an emissions map, but seeing how that reduced my fuel consumption (at least from a fuel map perspective) by about 20%, I want to use that for my cruising loads and put a fuel efficient map that I can load for long road trips.

    I also want a power map that optimizes the power output of the engine. I'll likely want to eventually mix the 2 somehow since it's my daily driver but will likely require multiple tunes. I guess I'll just have to plan my dyno time appropriately and optimize the time spent.
     
  12. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    BTW, I forgot to mention how nice the car pulls from 3000 - 4000 ;)

    I have not ventured past 4000 yet as I have not synced the timing at High RPM to account for timing drift... but I will soon.

    I also need to obtain all the parts the my mechanic didn't install from the IABs i.e. check valve, vacuum tank, control solenoid, etc. I get a whistling sound from the IABs at low RPM high load that usually goes away as the load reduce and RPMs climb. I'm wondring if that's normal or if the IABs aren't fully closed... maybe I should just leave them open or go for a Euro Type R intake manifold since I already have a 3 wire IACV and using the same EGR...
     
  13. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I've been having an issue with inconsistent starts with my AEM and I thought that it was just my AEM configuration. Turns out that another Prelude owner 3rd gen with a 4th gen JDM engine swap is also having the same issue.

    He contacted AEM and aparantely one of the AEM techs is experiencing the same phenomenon with a JDM swap as well.

    It looks like the issue is only during start cranking of the motor but when the motor fires up, things are fine, timing is dead on, etc. It's strange that the OEM ECU has no troubles...

    We are suspecting that the JDM dizzy may be the problem and the fact that they packed in the TDC, CYP and CKP all in that unit along with an Internal coil. AEM suspects that the coil is creating interference.

    This may explain why both my OEM ECUs threw Misfire codes as both ECUs were probably not effectively filtering out the coil since they are externally mounted for the H22A7 and the TDC / CKP for both the H22A7 and F23A1 are mounted at the crank/pully side.

    The other JDM Prelude owner is going to try converting his dizzy to an external coil while leaving the TDC, CYP and CKP sensors intact. The AEM tech is going to see if he can apply filters in the AEM config to get around the issue. I sent logs from my AEM showing unsuccessful starts as well as a successful start in hopes he can glean something from it...

    Honestly, if all goes well and if this actually fixes my OEM ECU issues, I may sell the AEM and recover the money (put it towards other mods) if and only if the ATR ECU works well... More to come.
     
  14. JDMPlaya

    JDMPlaya Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,789
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Great post, keep us updated
     
  15. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Thanks. No major updates yet. I'm still struggling with cold starts and even the warm starts are rough. Sometimes it fires and catches a 1/2 second later... almost like a pause. I've basically played with all of the AEM start settings; Crank Adv, Crank Injector Time table, Initial Crank Pulse and nothing is consistent.

    If I try 3 - 4 times, it eventually starts. I try adding more fuel in the Initial Crank Pulse, but it seems everything that I adjust has inconsistent results... I'm going to bring it to my mechanic this weekend to have a look.

    I'm still planning to convert to an external coil even though my mechanic doesn't believe it will make a difference.

    I'm also getting all my IAB parts so I can enable it. I'm going to use my AEM to control it and use my secondary O2 sensor connector to send the signal since it's not used right now. Easy access!

    I'm getting my mechanic to also install the V6 hood struts on my 4cyl. I had custom brackets created and I mounted them on the chassis where the V6 has them. I originally used an anchor on the hood but it was too weak and eventually came off. My mechanic will weld the hood portion for me.

    I'll try to post some pics of all this soon...
     
  16. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Another thing I've determined is that the EVAP control on the AEM is really just for the EVAP Fuel system i.e. the EVAP canister that sends fuel vapor from the Fuel Tank to the engine to be burnt and NOT for the EGR. You can use the EVAP control for the EGR but it's not ideal.

    I tried enabling the EVAP via the AEM Configurable Outputs and when I simply turned it on, it floods the AFR down at least 4 full points! So if I'm at 14.5 cruising and I open up the EVAP, my AFR drops to 11.5 or lower! Just a basic on/off will not work for the EVAP. It needs to be duty controlled via the AEM EVAP config and EGR needs to be controlled via the User Defined PW output.
     
  17. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    It's been a while and not much updates but I did fix the inconsistent starting. I recently converted the JDM internal coil that came with the engine to an external coil and so far my starting has been flawless. We'll see how it holds up in the winter but at least I can tune it properly knowing that I'll get consistent results.
     
  18. pspec

    pspec Junior Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004

    Hey I have been following some of your threads on this board. I have a 1997 Accord EX. I want to swap in a Euro-R motor. My car does not have immobilizer and its OBD2a.. Is there a way to use the OEM PDE, or PCD ecu in my car?
     
  19. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    So I've discovered that the JDM Euro R uses the PCD ECU and is a JDM H22A with 3 wire IACV, electronically controlled EGR and all the Crank Position, TDC, etc sensors located in the dizzy.

    The European Accord Type R uses the PDE ECU and is a EDM H22A7 with 3 wire IACV, electronically controlled EGR but has the Crank Position and TDC sensors mounted on the oil pump in the crank area and only the Cylinder Position sensors is at the dizzy (same as USDM engines).

    So to properly answer your question, you need to confirm the match between your 97 Accord and the motor you want to install. For instance, the 98-02 Accords all use a 3 wire IACV and electronically controlled EGR with Crank and TDC sensors at the crank and Cylinder Position at the dizzy.

    I don't know if the 97 accord uses a 2 wire or 3 wire IACV and I don't know if the EGR is electronically controlled or not. I assume it's probably vacuum controlled.

    If that is the case, a JDM Prelude engine would suit your swap much better than the newer Euro R or EDM Type R engines. The JDM Prelude engines use a 2 wire IACV and vacuum controlled EGR and all the Crank, Cylinder and TDC sensors in the dizzy.
     
  20. lithiumus

    lithiumus New Member

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    The European PDE ECU has an immobilizer that is almost identical to the USDM 6th gen immobilizers. The transmitter at the key is different but the immobilizer "chip" inside the ECU is the same as the USDM ones.

    I have a PDE ECU and in order to get it working I pulled the immobilizer chip from my 99 PAA USDM ECU and swapped it into the PDE ECU. Since my keys are already programmed into the immobilizer chip, it worked like a charm.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Note: the EDM PDE ECU OBD2B pinouts differ slightly from the USDM PAA OBD2B pinouts. If I remember correctly, 2 or 3 wires need to be changed around. One is a primary O2 sensor so it's important that you figure this out.

    By that deduction, you can expect that the JDM ECUs will likely be slightly different as well. If you want to use the European ATR H22A7 engine, better get a hold of the original car keys or you won't be able to defeat the immobilizer. Even then, you might not be able to...
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
Verification:
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page