Fedor Vs. The Winner of UFC 116

[VTEC_CBR]

Silver...

I train to fight. I'm pretty sure I have a good idea of what I'm talking about. I'll rephrase what I said initially to more accurately articulate my point - Lesnar has FINISHED fights via TKO but is not a fighter that I would consider a KO artist/"a stop guys dead in their track" fighter. He's a "obtain dominate position, inflict whatever damage I can" fighter.

1) There's a huge difference between a KO and a TKO.

2) There's a clear difference in the crispness of Carwin's strikes versus those of Lesnar. Lesnar is a stronger individual yet he hasn't earned a single KO because he is simply raw power and aggression. While Carwin is still a monster, he is not as strong as Brock. However, Carwin is much more refined, allowing him to have well placed punches that knock people out cold.

3) Lesnar has attempted to end every fight early. Watch all of his fights again. You're proving my point. He has TRIED to end fights early but hasn't been able to end them at will. Watching him fight is like watching a smash and grab robbery. He has a clear physical and athletic advantage over his opponents that allows him to win - but I think when you put him in the ring with Carwin, I think there's a high likelihood that as long as Carwin can fend off the bull rush, that he could knock Lesnar out.

-Your pictures prove my point. Lesnar has literally tried to smash every opponents face in - resulting in bruises, blood and damage, but not KOs.

To quote myself from earlier in this thread;
"Yes, he inflicts damage and the after fight pictures are not pretty but no, he doesn't generally KO his opponents."

Mir doesn't look like a mess after Carwin, because a single well placed shot on the chin knocked him out cold. You're not going to see the same blood, bruising, etc with a chin shot. The worst you'll see is swelling from a broken jaw but that is far less noticeable than a broken orbital bone, smashed up nose, etc. Because his opponents are bloody, doesn't mean anything regarding his KO ability. It speaks to the point that he's not dishing out KOs but rather TKOs. Watch any of Mike Tyson's victims from when he was in his prime - the typical after fight photos are not of opponents that are bloodied messes.

If you think bruising and blood prove a point that Lesnar is a fight finisher, I bring you this;

That's damage inflicted by a 145lber. That fight went the full five rounds.

edited -

After photos of another fight that went to decision. Again - lighter weight fighters. 170lbs.

Everything I've said makes perfect sense, you're just too wrapped around what you have to say that you prefer not to open your eyes or ears to another person's opinion.

I've said the whole time that I'm a Lesnar fan and I defended the guy before he came to the UFC. The fact remains that he has not shown himself to be a knock out artist. You can call him a fight finisher because he's earned TKOs. I question all of the TKOs with the exception of the second Mir fight.

Couture is 40+ and a 205lber not a heavyweight. Min-Soo Kim is just a spectacle and not a fighter - he tapped to strikes. GTFO. Heath Herring is a nobody - not even a top 10 contender. If Lesnar lights out Carwin, I may change my opinion - depending on the circumstances of the victory.

I never thought I would, but I agree with you 100%

That first picture, is it Urijah Faber after fighting Aldo?

 

[totalburnout]

I never thought I would, but I agree with you 100%

That first picture, is it Urijah Faber after fighting Aldo?

Yup. The picture was a few days after the fight. Faber was on crouches for awhile.

Obviously the second picture is Jon Fitch - that was after his fight with GSP.

Here's the day after the fight;

Jose Aldo knows how to throw a mean low leg kick.

As I mentioned in my last post, I should have articulated myself better when I said Lesnar wasn't a fight finisher - because technically he has ended the majority of his fights via TKO. His opponents and the stoppages were questionable. The biggest difference I was attempting to illustrate was between precise, technical, knock out power and "swing for the fences when I'm on my feet and flail my fists when I'm GNPing because I'm a big strong dude" mentalities. All I can say is the fact that Brock hasn't lights outted anyone is just a testament to the fact that he needs to improve his striking abilities. Someone that big, powerful, and athletic, should be able to end his fights via KO or real TKO stoppages (the guy is about to get KO'd, there's too much damage the other fighter can't continue)

 

[totalburnout]

Check out these medical suspensions from the last PPV UFC card.

UFC 115 medical suspensions and injuries for 'Liddell vs Franklin' - MMA Mania

...for anyone who is under the misconception that all fighters don't inflict serious damage.

 

[VTEC_CBR]

Yeah, I'd seen the day after photo, it looks like a bratwurst that's at the brink of bursting but that other picture is just nasty. Those leg kicks were absolutely vicious.

 

[95b16coupe]

brock lesnar has dominated all of his fights. without a doubt. he got caught with a rookie mistake by mir and lost the fight. and that can be debated that the fight could have been stopped due to brock pounding his face in.

how did the same thing happen to fedor the experienced? wow....

Fedor is smart and methodically and meticulously works through his fights (a la Randy Couture, Kenny Florian, GSP, and other "thinking" fighters).

and to surprise us all, fedor tried to wipe the floor with him and look dominate, just to get caught.

 

[totalburnout]

how did the same thing happen to fedor the experienced? wow....



and to surprise us all, fedor tried to wipe the floor with him and look dominate, just to get caught.

I take issue with the whole "he made a rookie mistake" argument. For every move there is a counter move. Yes, Fedor could have been more conservative in his approach. However, had he pulled the pass off successfully, then his move would have been "brilliant" and left him in a completely dominate position. Kudos to Werdum for having excellent BJJ and being able to immediately roll back into guard and simultaneously sink in the armbar/triangle.

Fedor was aware of the first triangle attempt and deftly defended against the triangle, he just wasn't prepared for a second attempt. Brock Lesnar had no clue regarding his positioning and the trouble he was in during the first Mir fight. ...I say this, again, being a Lesnar fan.

Thats what I see as the difference between those "rookie mistakes". Fedor was aware of what was happening, he just didn't ready himself for a second attack.

 

[95b16coupe]

in regards to your statement, i will concede that you have a far better understanding of bjj than i do. no issues there. with that being said, the only possible explanations left are...

1) fedor got overzealous and made a "rookie" mistake

or

2) he greatly underestimated werdum.

either way, fedor fucked up. i'll admit, he's a great fighter. he's just not the omghi2bbq that the fedor dick riders make him out to be. even in his prime, i don't think he could beat lesnar or carwin. however, i do feel that fedor would have dominated the ufc hw class from 98 to ~2004 ish.

hw class is evolving. before you just needed to be a good striker and a big ass human. now you need to be quick and have real stand up. you need to move like a 205 guy in a 270lb body. it wasn't like this 8, even 6 years ago.

 

[totalburnout]

in regards to your statement, i will concede that you have a far better understanding of bjj than i do. no issues there. with that being said, the only possible explanations left are...

1) fedor got overzealous and made a "rookie" mistake

or

2) he greatly underestimated werdum.

either way, fedor fucked up. i'll admit, he's a great fighter. he's just not the omghi2bbq that the fedor dick riders make him out to be. even in his prime, i don't think he could beat lesnar or carwin. however, i do feel that fedor would have dominated the ufc hw class from 98 to ~2004 ish.

hw class is evolving. before you just needed to be a good striker and a big ass human. now you need to be quick and have real stand up. you need to move like a 205 guy in a 270lb body. it wasn't like this 8, even 6 years ago.

I concur 100%, however I'd modify option 1 to just "Fedor got overzealous". What he got caught in was not Day 1 of BJJ 101 like many armchair quarterbacks are making the mistake out to be.

You learn "position before submission", which is why when Fedor almost passed Werdum's guard he thought he could easily step to the side. Werdum just was an expert and immediately rolled back into position and simultaneously went for the submission. It was an absolute clinic on how good BJJ players can transition seemlessly from one attempt to the next. He went back and forth between the arm bar and the choke, even after it was sunk in, based on the way Fedor moved. When he presented an opening to wrench on the arm, he did. When Fedor presented an opening for Werdum to readjust his legs and even pull Fedor's head towards his chest, Werdum took that opening.

To see someone get submitted like that when they're good and fresh, especially with Fedor's credentials of being a jack of all trades, you know you were watching something special.

 

[95b16coupe]

werdum had the night of his life. fedor wins that fight 9/10 times.

i think werdum had a very tactical gameplan and stuck with it.

fedor's plan was "beat the shit out of him"......

oops....i don't care what fedor says, this was not "god's plan"....

take some fucking control over your life. stop being such a tool.

 

[K2e2vin]

hw class is evolving. before you just needed to be a good striker and a big ass human. now you need to be quick and have real stand up. you need to move like a 205 guy in a 270lb body. it wasn't like this 8, even 6 years ago.

It's similar as it is now then what it was back then(considering what it takes to win). Only difference is the class' skill in general is higher up(higher popularity and more people into the sport will do this). Also another thing was Jiu Jitsu was much more popular back then too and not many strikers knew how to defend against it.