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flashing or burning

Discussion in 'Forced Induction' started by DelSlo, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    hey guys. im tryin to order software/hardware for tuning my boosted B16. i dont completely understand, but i got the basis. so far ive played with the shareware version of crome to see all the options etc. it seems to be layed out nicely, so ill be using crome. i geuss widebands are still up in the air but im leaning towards the LC1 from innovate. but the PLX300 looks pretty decent too. anyways, just didnt completely understand the difference to datalogging and realtime programming. i know with RTP you can change it as you drive. from a quick glance RTP looks far superior to just datalogging and making changes after the fact. if i go RTP this means that i only need one blank chip?? ive been told i wont need a chip burner. and once ive mad a good map for fuel and ignition and want to run it. if im not burning it.. how do i run my ECU without my laptop? is this where i would "flash" it ?? just a little confused with my options. if anyone can give me a real quick overview of how its gonna work ,and what the pros and cons are of datalogging and RTP. thanx for the help

    Paul


    p.s money isnt a huge issue, i just wanna do it right with some good add ons. im looking to spend around 1000 bucks canadian on tuning software/hardware, so i geus that would be about 800 american or so.
     
  2. B16CRX

    B16CRX Senior Member

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    what program are you using? the only obd-0 program capable of tuning a dohc vtec motoris BRE. It is Ostrich compatible. Using the ostrich allows you to reflash on teh fly. The new maps will be stored in the ostrich unit itself unless you choose to burn them to a chip and install that on your ecu.
    You will need a decent wb o2 such as the plx or lm-1. a chip burner, such as teh moates burn-1or the ostrich which is what I will be getting in teh future. Dont forget your datalogging cable. check out www.xenocron.com for package deals for beginning tuners. I would also check out www.forum.pgmfi.org for more info on tuning.

    Good luck!
     
  3. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    thank you b16,

    the ostrich is only for obd 0? whoops. sorry.
    ive been reading alot on pgmfi.org. but nobody answers any threads there so its hard to get an answer to something that i am confused about. but i will research, xenocron.com. thanks alot!
     
  4. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    ok looking at xenocron. im liking the tuner package one. i know this sounds madd noobie. but i really am when it comes to computer parts but is this kit everything ill need to tune my car for boost, other than crome pro.


    and for the wideband, doesnt the LC 1 wideband use my 9 pin serial in the back of my comp? does this mean that i should get a USB datalog cable kit so i can run both at the same time. im really anxious to get all the parts and then i can get figure it all out, but i dont want to start ordering random parts that i THINK i need. i just dont trust my knowledge on this subject. thanx again
     
  5. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    LM1
    ostrich
    burn1

    those are the 3 tools IMO
     
  6. UDT

    UDT Senior Member

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    Fer sure....... i just got my burn1 yesterday.
     
  7. BlueShadow

    BlueShadow Member

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    DelSlo,

    I'm not familiar with your setup, but are you running OBD 0 or OBD 1? nbot sure if you knew this, but Crome, and Uberdata work only on OBD 1 ECU's. For OBD 0 ECU's you have turboedit, and BRE. A lot of the basic info about what parts you need has alrady been covered.

    I read your other post and it sounds like you might be mixing up RTP and datalogging. Just FYI these are two functions that have different purposes. Datalogging as the name imples logs data such as AFR (when a WB is equipped), water temp, timing, and a lot more. Without any kind of datalogging, tuning will be almost impossible. RTP is just a more advanced way of burning a chip. The ability to tune on the fly allows you to speed up the tuning process. For some people this might be important, but for others that only have to tune their own setup the burner method is less expensive, but more time consuming. If you are doing dyno tuning then the money saved by going with a ROM burner might end up going towards paying for more dyno time. One the other hand if you have the Ostrich then you end up spending more money for the tuning setup, but you spend less time on the dyno and you might save yourself some money on the dyno.

    About the LC1 setup, check out www.innovatemotorsports.com and download the instructions manual for free. My LM1 has a serial plug which I can connect to my laptop. But this is so I can download datalog information from my wideband controller onto the laptop. The LM1 has it's own datalogging software, and if you have the RPM convertor to get throttle %, RPMs and water temp it will record this onto the controller along with your AFR which the controller gets from the WB sensor. This data is transfered to the laptop where you view it with the LogWorks software. If you are datalogging with Crome or Uberdata then you have to connect one of the analog outputs from the controller to your ECU wiring at D14 (for OBD 1). The analog output will send out the AFR voltages the controller recieves from the WB O2 sensor. Pin D14 is the stock narrowband wire (OBD 1), and when you splice in the analog output signal you replace the narrowband O2 sensor signal going to the ECU with the wideband O2 sensor signal. With the ECU recieving a wideband signal from the WB controller you can use CromePROs datalogging to get the actual AFR from the wideband controller. That's assuming you have the correct voltage to AFR conversion numbers in the Crome settings. IMO it would be better to get a wideband with an AFR display on the controller. That way you can compare the AFR reading on the controller with what you are seeing in Crome/Uberdata's datalogging and if they aren't matching up then something is wrong.
     
  8. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    blue shadow. i appreciate your response. thank you VERY much for clearing that up. so you do prefer the LM1 over the LC1? so then the Xenocron kit probably isnt the kit for me. and yes i watched the video on the LM1 and it made some things more clear to me. i just assumed that because it was the earlier version, the LC1 might be better and since on cromes site they reccomend it and on xenocron it comes with it. anyways i should clarify my setup, stupid of me not to say before, im running a 1993 Del sol with a 00 B16A2 motor, that is converted to obd 1. im running a chipped OBD1 P06 ecu that has a socketed 27c256 chip. its obviously modded for vtec but im not sure if modding this ecu for vtec and socketing the ecu means that im good to go for crome and a wideband.

    so in theory if i get the LM1 does this mean that all i really need is the LM1 and crome as well as any more ECU modifications i might need. and if more ecu mods are required i can just get the chipping kit from xeno and get tuning.

    i think the thing im most confused on is how to save the info into my ECU and unplug the laptop after i complete my tuning. with the LM1 kit. does this burn my BIN into my ECU...?


    again thanx for answering my questions, im looking to order the software hardware i will need within the next couple of weeks and there seem to be alot of options and alot of different ways to do this.

    would hondate S200 be an option for a noob to computers like me??
     
  9. BlueShadow

    BlueShadow Member

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    I have the LM1 and the thing I lke about it is the controller has a LCD readout which tells me the AFR/Lambda readout. I use this readout to tell me if my AFR in CromePRO is correct. You have to setup your wideband in Crome or Uberdata and you do this by inputting the voltage to AFR conversion number. But if you put in the wrong number your AFR might be slightly off. If my controller readout doesn't match the AFR in CromePRO's datalogger then I know my voltage/AFR conversion numbers are wrong.

    I'm not familiar with the P06 because I have a P28. But if you buy CromePRO from John Cui and you want to datalog with CromePRO you need to cut a jumper wire at J12 in your ECU. If you are using Uberdata then you need to leave J12 intact. Also a datalogging cable needs to be soldered onto the CN2 jumpers. You can either solder the cable directly to CN2 in the ECU or solder a header onto the CN2 holes, and get a matching plug which you solder onto your datalogging cables. The header/plug allows you to install and remove the cable whenever you want.

    Here is a pic from Keebler65's site which shows you where the CN2 jumpers are at in the ECU. In this picture he soldered the wire directly to the CN2 and he put a DB9 plug on the case. This will let you plug a serial cable such as the Superdroids cable to it. You can also get a USB datalogging cable but instead of a USB or header/plug connection you can substitute a DB9 plug and solder it onto the plug. You can use any method for installing a datalogging cable you just need to make sure you match the correct wires to the correct CN2 hole. USB datalogging cables only have 3 wires connected to the CN2 (TX-transmit, RX-recieve, and GND-ground). Serial cables have 4 wires you need to connect to CN2 (TX-transmit, RX-recieve, GND-ground, and +5V power). One other thing to keep in mind is you cant use any serial cable or USB cable. You need to get a cable with what's called a TTL module. Basically a TTL translates ECU language to laptop language. If you want to get a cable that is datalog capable contact 93turbo16 on honda-tech. Or e-mail him at john@j-k-tuning.com Or you can contact xenocron and he can help you get your ECU datalog ready if it isn;t already done.


    It's not that hard really to get started, it seems overwhelming at first, but once you know how to do it then it's a piece of cake. Here are the steps you'll want to take to getting started on tuning. This is assuming you already have the ECU setup for datalogging like I mentioned above, and that you have the datalogging cables.

    -make sure WB setup is installed properly and the controller is calibrated properly. follow instructions on engine start up and how/when you turn on the wideband. dont start the car yet
    -For both burner and Ostrich setups make sure that in Crome you: remove checksum, add quickdatalog +RTP and disable knock sensor (I dont think the P06 supports a KS)
    -complete making your basemap in Crome and save it. dont forget to name it filename.bin
    -if you are using a chip burner set it up and burn your basemap chip and install the chip in the ECU
    -if you are using an Ostrich plug it into your laptop and set it up so Crome recognizes it. send the basemap to the ostrich
    -plug in the wideband cable into the ECU and to your laptop
    -start the car up. if you had to install larger injectors and rescale them in Crome hopefully the idle wont be too bad
    -setup the datalogging cable in the device manager and also set it up in Crome
    -open up the Lamdba View in Crome and start datalogging go back to your fuel low and fuel high to adjust fuel- actual AFR's are recorded in the Lambda View

    Basically that's how the process works. If you think it's too much then you can order a Hondata and have a dealer do it all for you. But I think with Hondata moving on to the S300, it will be hard to get support on the S200. If you do decide to use Crome, then my suggestion is to first to practice making basemaps and messing with the fuel and timing tables, and options. Once you know how to do all that then later on you can focus more on how to setup the Ostrich and datalogging cable in the device manager and Crome.

    First you start using Crome, once you know where all the options are then you move onto how to burn chips (if you get the burner). Once you know how to do that then you can practice connecting the Ostrich (if you have an ostrich). With the Ostrich you plug it in, set the COM ports in windows device manager, and then you set the same settings in Crome. Once you know how to use the ostrich you can move on. There is a way to verify the ostrich is working correctly by using your flash and burn software read and verify functions. If you want more info on that you I can tell you about it. Once you know how to use the ostrich then you have to setup the datalogging cable which you can only do with the car on. In order for the datalogging cable to be detected by your tuning laptop the ECU has to have power (car has to be running).

    If you haven't already done so you can download CromeFREE and just start playing with it. Open up a stock file (JDM P30 would be good) and start messing with it. Go to file and save-as and name it and put a .bin at the end, this is important. You can name it whatever your want, but make sure you put a .bin at the end. The other important thing to do is remove checksum and add quickdatalog+RTP before you save it. Removing checksum will keep the CEL from coming on when you start it up with this .bin (which BTW is short for binary). Adding QD+RTP allows you to datalog with this .bin file. You also need to make sure that before you save the .bin you go into the options and uncheck/check the applicable options. For example P28's and I think P06's dont support knock sensors, because the cars these originally ran didn't have a KS. The ECU's are now modified to run your B16 which does have a knock sensor. You need to make sure you disable the knock sensor in Crome otherwise the presence of the KS in your B16 will set off a CEL in your ECU which cant support a KS.
     
  10. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    holy crap shadow. you have no idea how much i appreciate that. that was a huge write up, thank you for taking the time to do so.

    i had D/L cromefree and was playing a bit with it. read a bunch of articles on how to play with its functions and watched jon cui's how to video. ive been playing with it at work when i get a spare moment (im a licenced mechanic by the way) and have been learning little by little. ive boosted my b16 over the winter and have not started the engine yet. now im set on learning the tuning side (something that will never be covered as an everyday automotive mechanic) anyways.

    ok i see your point with viewing the LM1's a/f with the reading that is showing up in crome's. thats a solid point, im glad you brought that up!

    this is my understanding now, i use crome, make a base map and play it on the safe side, save it as a BIN file. then hook up all datalogging stuff to my ecu, run the car watch my readings at idle, shut the car off, make adjustments, try again, then when i get it right. shut the car off, burn the chip.. and then drive the car and tune the rest of throttle, cruising, boost....

    ok wait, if im datalogging, this means i cannot change on the fly, correct? so when i get to a point where i need to make corrections, how do i do that?? i burn the chip, datalog some more, make adjustments, reburn? drive, make adjustments and burn again till ive done all my throttle positions and boost and stuff??


    again i cant thank you enough, for the advice and help!

    Paul
     
  11. B16CRX

    B16CRX Senior Member

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    you can change setting on the fly as you datalog with no problems. The datalogging header is at CN2 on teh ecu boar, and teh ostrich plugs into teh spot where your chip is. the ostrich is basically a romulator in a more convenient form.

    Personally, I use a USB datalogging cable from xencron. you may want to try the nokia cable from him. it is another very proven way of datalogging. Have you checked out www.moates.net yet?
     
  12. BlueShadow

    BlueShadow Member

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    I had a lot of free time last night, so I was able to type out all that stuff to help you out, hehehe.

    If you are using the burner and you do not have the ostrich romulator, then yes you will have to shut the car down, change the fuel in Crome and reburn a new chip. Then you plug your new chip in start the car back up and see how the AFR changes. If you have CromePRO then you can datalog as long as your stuff is set up for it, CromeFREE doesn't have datalogging. It doesn't matter if you are using a ostrich and "tuning on the fly" or f you are using a burner and having to turn the car off and burn a new chip everytime. The datalogging process stays the same. When your datalogging cable is hooked up you can watch the datalogs in the LAMBDA VIEW screen. Then you go into the fuel tables and adjust fuel as required to change the AFR for that cell. And of course the fuel adjusting can be as simple as going to the fuel table adding/subtracting fuel and clicking on the PUT icon, but this is if you are using the Ostrich. If you have a chip burner you have to shut the car down, make the fuel change, save the .bin, burn that saved .bin to a chip, swap chips and restart the car. In both cases once you have made the changes you go back to the LAMBDA VIEW (or hit F11) to see how much the AFR changed in the cells that you added/subtracted fuel.

    I attached two pics from my CromePRO setup. The first one shows you the RTP buttons. If you have the Ostrich hooked up these buttons are how you send the changes from crome to the Ostrich. GET is used to pull the .bin off of the Ostrich but I think it is bugged. PUT sends the whole .bin to the Ostrich. IIRC with REAL TIME UPDATE clicked, anytime you make a fuel or timing change the change is automatically send to the Ostrich. If REAL TIME UPDATE is unchecked then anytime you make a fuel or timing change you have to click on UPDATE TABLES to send the changes to the Ostrich. UPDATE TABLES only changes fuel and timing, if you want to change something in the options like your VTEC crossover you would have to click PUT to send the changes. I thinkg the VERIFY button is also bugged.

    [​IMG]

    Next is a pic of one of my old datalogs (.dlf file). Normally the SHOW LAMBDA READINGS is blank until you start doing your own datalogging. The icons on the top right are the ones you click to toggle the Tuner Toolbar and the Lambda symbol is the Show Lambda Readins (F11) button and that's how you get to the screen you are looking at right now. When you are datalogging there will be a purple map trace that floats around the cells and it will follow your current load/rpm location (you can see it at 797 RPM col 2). The information on the far right shows you the current condition of the engine. At the bottom is a timeline with a bar...when you move the bar back and forth you can view different parts of your datalogging session. The readouts in the datalogging window will change as you move around in the timeline to reflect the actual engine conditions. In the main window you see all the different AFR numbers. From what I've noticed the AFR numbers are an average of the AFR's logged throughout the datalogging session. You'll see some of the AFR's are in parenthesis. This means that you need to record the AFR's in that cell for a little longer so that Crome can calculate a good AFR average.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    ok im understanding this alot better now. i geuss i wont ask anymore questions until i get my stuff, then ill play with it on my own till i get stuck and have some decent questions to ask.

    ok but AGAIN there is one thing im not understanding, HOW do i run my car without my laptop hooked up if im not burning chips?? and on Xenocron site. it says "moates ostrich burner" but from what you are saying, those are two different things whats up with that?

    id like to do datalogg and make changes on the fly, but if im doing that, then this means that im not burning chips right?

    so what hardware do you suggest i get , an LM1, cromepro and a datalogging cable and im good to start learning?
     
  14. B16CRX

    B16CRX Senior Member

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    if you are emulating/romulating, then you are not burning chips. the information is coming directly from the program on your laptop, to the ecu via a connector that looks like a chip with wires coming from it.

    if you want to run the car without the laptop hooked up or not romulating, you must burn a chip or it will not run.

    You need a chip burner such as the burn1, WB o2, and datalogging to get started. Having a romulator will save tons of time and stress.
     
  15. BlueShadow

    BlueShadow Member

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    Yah the Ostrich romulator and ROM burners are two different things. When you are burning chips the laptop doesn't have to be connected to the car/ECU. The laptop is just connected to the burner. When you want to burn a new chip you jus stick it in the burner, burn the .bin to the chip and you take the chip out of the burner and stick it in your car's ECU. If you are using a chip burner and datalogging the only thing that will have to be connected from the laptop to the car/ECU is the datalogging cable.

    The Ostrich on the other hand is a box with a ribbon cable that has a chip-like plug on it. This chip-like plug goes into your CAR/ECU socket. The ostrich box/ribbon cable imitates(emulates) a chip. The cool thing about it is you can make changes to it without shutting the car down.

    Only the Ostrich can make changes on the fly. If you use the burner you have to turn the car off and burn a new chip every time you make a change. Something most people will do is they have the Ostrich plugged in and they do all the tuning on the fly. Once they are done tuning they turn the car off and they save the .bin program on the laptop. You then burn a chip with that .bin that you had just completed on the Ostrich. Then you take the Ostrich out of the car/ECU, plug your chip into the ECU and start the car up.

    The most user friendly WB's are the Innovate LM1, and LC1 and the PLX M250 and M300. The thing that sucks about the LC1 and the M250 is the controller doesn't have the AFR display. IMO it's a good idea to get the controller which has the AFR display that way you can match it up with the AFR's in the CromePRO datalogger to make sure it is correct.

    For chip burning equipment I like Moates because he updates his software/hardware to work better with Crome and Uberdata.

    For a datalogging cable this will depend on how many USB ports your tuning laptop has. This is important because the Moates burner and Ostrich hae USB plugs only. And when you are tuning you'll want to leave your burner or Ostrich plugged in. If your laptop only has one USB port and you don't want to get a USB hub then you'll want a serial datalogging cable (ie Superdroids). If your tuning laptop has two USB ports then you can get either a serial or USB datalogging cable, and for this I like the moates Hulog.
     
  16. [Freemantle]

    [Freemantle] Senior Member

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    Damn BlueShadow, you have way more patience than I.

    You really don't need an ostrich, thaough I'm sure it would be useful. I did my first full blown Uberdata tune without datalogging (this was a while ago) and it turned out fantastic. However, if I was goig to tune it right on a steady state dyno, it would take all day long, whereas with datalogging I could probably get the whole map done in about 3 hours, maybe longer with a VTEC motor.

    There is such a thing as overthinking it. If you get a solid basemap that idles and revs, you will find that it is damn easy from there on out.
     
  17. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    but.... the ostrich doesn't datalog. its a romulator, which saves you from re-burning a chip everytime you want to change your program slightly or completely.
    datalogging is a seperate cable through the 4- channel port that also needs to be soldered in and connected to a serial port on a laptop
     
  18. BlueShadow

    BlueShadow Member

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    hehehe, yah...it sounds like the guys is a little confused about what datalogging is and what chipburning/romulating is. They are two completely different things which you an do at the same time as long as your ECU is setup correctly and your laptop has enough USB or serial plugs.

    Datalogging - pulling engine data off of the ECU so you can review it and adjust fuel, timing, misc options

    Chip burning/Romulating - changing engine parameters such as fuel, timing and misc options and saving/sending it to a chip or the Ostrich
     
  19. [Freemantle]

    [Freemantle] Senior Member

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    I know, I've never used the ostrich. I have used Uber Datalogging on an OBDI B16-T, and it was fantastically easier than having my GF in the passenger seat writing down the AFRs on a steno notebook when I said "now". :)
     
  20. DelSlo

    DelSlo Senior Member

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    no this guy is awesome! his help has been amazing and this thread should be stickied for all the other noobs to tuning like myself! he had some awesome explanations.



    (blueshadow quoted..)

    "Only the Ostrich can make changes on the fly. If you use the burner you have to turn the car off and burn a new chip every time you make a change. Something most people will do is they have the Ostrich plugged in and they do all the tuning on the fly. Once they are done tuning they turn the car off and they save the .bin program on the laptop. You then burn a chip with that .bin that you had just completed on the Ostrich. Then you take the Ostrich out of the car/ECU, plug your chip into the ECU and start the car up."




    this is exactly what i would like to do. i understand your point aswell about the LM1 displaying a/f and comparing on your laptop. its very good advice. after reviewing your posts ive decided to order the Xenocron tuner package for 410 dollars, use to ostrich and the LC1. i would prefer the LM1 but as far as the bank accounts go, ithe LM1 is already in the package, and I will more than likely get an LM1 afterwards as an upgrade. i will be tuning with Crome Pro. i will then ivest in a burner to burn my chips. i do alot of work for a guy who runs a performance shop a few towns over, hes not keen on COMPLETE tuning though, he just uses APEXI VAFC and this could be a great business opportunity for me. hence the reason im very excited to learn about every aspect of tuning. the tuning all makes sense to me as i have a great knowledge of engines and their requirments. however like i said, im not a computer guy, and i geuss im tryin to become one! haha this why i sound like such a dork. but i was fortunate enough to come across blueshadow to clarify a bunch of things for me. your effort and extreme patience is very much appreciated!

    Paul Gemin

    Toronto, Canada
     
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