france bans smoking

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Second hand smoke is as carcinogenic as burning or snuffed out candles. It's less carcinogenic than most incense sticks.

They found that when they pumped a bunch of smoke into a rat, it got cancer. From there, sensensationalism and catch phrases turned that report into "smokers are killing non smokers". The beat goes on.

Second hand smoke is as responsible for killing people as car exhaust is for causing global warming.
 
Celerity said:
Second hand smoke is as carcinogenic as burning or snuffed out candles. It's less carcinogenic than most incense sticks.

They found that when they pumped a bunch of smoke into a rat, it got cancer. From there, sensensationalism and catch phrases turned that report into "smokers are killing non smokers". The beat goes on.

Second hand smoke is as responsible for killing people as car exhaust is for causing global warming.
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Your day job must be a lobbiest for Big Tobacco. :D We went through this ages ago - articles disproving your statement were found at a myriad of reputable websites, while the handful that argued for your claim were from cloak-and-dagger and conspiracy websites.

I won't even begin to touch on the car exhaust/global warming nonsense.
 
Show me the chemistry that takes place when cigarette smoke is exhaled, and it's necessary concentrations to be at a carcinogenic level in humans.

Go ahead. Find that.

You'll find mainstream sites and news sources supporting the anti-smoking side, because it's a mainstream concept. If a news organization defends smoking, they will be thrown into the fire. Even John Stossel has made this statement in several sources, including his own books.
 
i still say the whole smoking / non smoking in public places issue should not be a "law" issue. it should be left up to the business owners and customers.
by that i mean, that if a business owner wishes to allow smoking in their establishment or not then it should be thier choice, and likewise it is then the customers choice if they wish to go to that establishment that does or does not allow smoking.
the only thing you have to do to make a business owner change their policies is impact them financially.
if a business allows smoking and enough nonsmokers do not go there that it hurts their proffits then the business owner will change their policies to make more money. on the same note is a business does not allow smoking and enough smokers stop going it should be the business owners right to change the policy to allow smoking. ideally this would be done in a way that would please both smoking and nonsmoking parties, but as we have already seen nonsmokers will not be pleased untill everyone in the world no longer smokes.
seperate sections indoors were not good enough, seperate sections outdoors are still not good enough.
judging by the lengths many businesses have gone to to allow smoking at their establishments, it is safe to say the business owners have spoken.
unfortunately for them the nonsmokers do not care about that and insist on circumventing fair market play and take this issue out of their hands by forcing it upon them as law
 
The purpose of 99% of these laws is not to protect anyone, as they claim. It's to limit free choice.
 
E_SolSi said:
i still say the whole smoking / non smoking in public places issue should not be a "law" issue. it should be left up to the business owners and customers.
by that i mean, that if a business owner wishes to allow smoking in their establishment or not then it should be thier choice, and likewise it is then the customers choice if they wish to go to that establishment that does or does not allow smoking.
the only thing you have to do to make a business owner change their policies is impact them financially.
if a business allows smoking and enough nonsmokers do not go there that it hurts their proffits then the business owner will change their policies to make more money. on the same note is a business does not allow smoking and enough smokers stop going it should be the business owners right to change the policy to allow smoking.
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I agree with that completely. My 21st birthday is in about 3 months and I will obviously spend it in a bar. However, I am a smoker so after that I doubt I will go much before I would rather just sit in my living room, smoking, and drinking then go to a bar and have to keep walking outside.
 
they tried that in dallas...then they changed it to, "Okay, you can have a smoking section, but it has to be in a different area with a different heating/cooling system". After that, everything went back to the way it was because restraunts like steak and ale, olive garden, bennigans and a bunch of others were already setup that way.
 
Celerity said:
Show me the chemistry that takes place when cigarette smoke is exhaled, and it's necessary concentrations to be at a carcinogenic level in humans.

Go ahead. Find that.

You'll find mainstream sites and news sources supporting the anti-smoking side, because it's a mainstream concept. If a news organization defends smoking, they will be thrown into the fire. Even John Stossel has made this statement in several sources, including his own books.
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This is like saying "show me exactly how a fish turned into an ape into a human. If you can't do it, evolution doesn't exist". It's the same BS rhetoric that creationists and IDers like to spew in a sad attempt to dispel the theory of evolution. Science is creating a hypothesis, then using research data to back up the hypothesis. Sure, you can't "prove" that the theory of gravity exists, but you know what? I'd put a bet on your hitting the ground if you jumped out of your office window.

I'll let research data convince me that secondhand smoke increases my risk of getting cancer. And you know what? If someone can prove that it doesn't, I'll concede the point, but in the end, I'll still feel good about my thoughts on the matter now, because there's some pretty good evidence that backs me up.
 
E_SolSi said:
i still say the whole smoking / non smoking in public places issue should not be a "law" issue. it should be left up to the business owners and customers.
by that i mean, that if a business owner wishes to allow smoking in their establishment or not then it should be thier choice, and likewise it is then the customers choice if they wish to go to that establishment that does or does not allow smoking.
the only thing you have to do to make a business owner change their policies is impact them financially.
if a business allows smoking and enough nonsmokers do not go there that it hurts their proffits then the business owner will change their policies to make more money. on the same note is a business does not allow smoking and enough smokers stop going it should be the business owners right to change the policy to allow smoking. ideally this would be done in a way that would please both smoking and nonsmoking parties, but as we have already seen nonsmokers will not be pleased untill everyone in the world no longer smokes.
seperate sections indoors were not good enough, seperate sections outdoors are still not good enough.
judging by the lengths many businesses have gone to to allow smoking at their establishments, it is safe to say the business owners have spoken.
unfortunately for them the nonsmokers do not care about that and insist on circumventing fair market play and take this issue out of their hands by forcing it upon them as law
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Let me ask you this: Should the idea of safe buildings be a "law" issue? Building codes exist for public health and welfare. There's a reason you need two exits from a certain-sized space, or stairways to be a certain width, or particular walls to be fire-rated. Would you argue that, if I were a building owner, I should be able to contruct my walls from 5 feet of cardboard with no sprinkler system and provide one door on the third floor from which to enter and exit the establishment? I mean, I'm a private business, so I should be able to dictate how my building is built. If people don't like it, they'll stop frequently my place of business.

I don't buy it. The spirit of the nonsmoking laws are in the same vein as building codes. They were enacted to prevent people's actions/decisions from harming others. Now, you could take Celerity's whacked-out point of view that smoking hurts no one, but I'm obviously using the assumption that others' smoking increases the risk of my getting cancer.

Also, smoking "sections" (in that only air separates smokers from non-smokers) are BS, and I'd hoped you'd recognize that and not use it in your agrument.
 
Your counterargument is recognised : It's the same "BS and rhetoric" (IE: Counter argument) that everyone states. Which is why the issue isn't cut and dry.

Also, Gravity does exist - but researchers in Finland (Funny story if you want to hear it sometime) have theorized that Gravity (and it's quantum "particle") is Inertia in reverse time. Gravity is "emitted" but obviously the force is a pulling inward one, cleanly phrased as "The same thing as a pushing, emission force, only backwards in time"

Semantics, I know.
 
this isnt about people being cought inside a building and burning alive ala' Great White Providence RI.
this is about owners of businesses making decissions about what they want to allow in their establishment. this is no different than dress codes or the decission to serve beer or hard liquor.
some places do not serve any alcahol at all, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places serve beer only, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places some places have fully stocked bars, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places allow people to come in wearing ripped shorts, flip flops, hats, dirty t-shirts, etc, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places require a collared shirt, no jeans, no sneakers, and no hats, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places require a full suit, jacket, tie, etc. it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
now these decisions made by the business owners and in return the decision made by you, are no different than the decision of a business owner to allow smoking in their establishment and your decision as to whether or not you want to go there
but to go to a place that you know allows smoking and bitch about it is like going to friendlys and bitching that they dont serve beer, or going to a 5 star resturant and bitching that you cant wear your cammo cut-off shorts, birkenstocks, and tie dyed t-shirt inside.
now because you are looking at this from the militant non smoker viewpoint. im sure you are going to come back on the whole dress codes and other people consuming beer/liquor dont effect your health.
you (meaning militant nonsmokers) feel that you have the right to go absolutely anywhere and force your will (no smoking) uppon everyone else... instead of simply making the decision not to go places that have things going on that you do not agree with..."all these smokers are having a really good time at establishment XYZ. i would like to go there but i dont like the smoke. so instead of sacking up and dealing with it or choosing to go elsewhere to have a good time, i will bitch untill someone makes it a law that people can no longer smoke at establishment XYZ"
this is the same breed of people that move into yuppie projects that were built next to a drag track that has been there for YEARS... then bitch about it being too loud and try to get the drag track closed down (Englishtown NJ for instance)... hey assholes you willingly moved next to a drag track! (hey assholes you willingly went to an establishment where smoking was allowed)
 
I'm all for no smoking in certain places, such as malls, shops, stores, and hell, i don't even mind PURE restaurants.

But I agree with E, that it should be the business owner's decision to allow it or not for places such as coffee shops, and BAR bars (not TGI Fridays... but real bars, like the Pour House, or Toms' Cafe).

I know for a FACT that our local diner took a huge hit when the smoking ban went into effect here in CT.

It used to be you couldn't find a parking spot in the lot.
now, theres 4 cars on either side of the building at any given time...

We (meaning any amount of 5-10 of us) would go for dinner and or coffee at least 4-5 times a week at the local Diner. Eat, drink coffee, smoke sigs, leave a healthy tip for taking up the table time.

I think i've been there 4-5 times in the 2 years since the ban started.

figure, average 15 bucks a night... 5 times a week = $75 x 104 (2 years in weeks) = a shit load of money
now they see 75 of my money, and most of my friends.

Now, we stand around at dunkin donuts for coffee, outside....
and then get kicked out for loitering... when we all have a coffee in our hands, and a donut or bagel here or there
"Go inside or leave"

ok.... but we can't smoke inside... so we get banished outside, and now we're loitering.

Where the fuck do you want us to go?
 
E_SolSi said:
this isnt about people being cought inside a building and burning alive ala' Great White Providence RI.
this is about owners of businesses making decissions about what they want to allow in their establishment. this is no different than dress codes or the decission to serve beer or hard liquor.
some places do not serve any alcahol at all, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places serve beer only, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places some places have fully stocked bars, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places allow people to come in wearing ripped shorts, flip flops, hats, dirty t-shirts, etc, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places require a collared shirt, no jeans, no sneakers, and no hats, it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
some places require a full suit, jacket, tie, etc. it is up to you whether or not you want to go there
now these decisions made by the business owners and in return the decision made by you, are no different than the decision of a business owner to allow smoking in their establishment and your decision as to whether or not you want to go there
but to go to a place that you know allows smoking and bitch about it is like going to friendlys and bitching that they dont serve beer, or going to a 5 star resturant and bitching that you cant wear your cammo cut-off shorts, birkenstocks, and tie dyed t-shirt inside.
now because you are looking at this from the militant non smoker viewpoint. im sure you are going to come back on the whole dress codes and other people consuming beer/liquor dont effect your health.
you (meaning militant nonsmokers) feel that you have the right to go absolutely anywhere and force your will (no smoking) uppon everyone else... instead of simply making the decision not to go places that have things going on that you do not agree with..."all these smokers are having a really good time at establishment XYZ. i would like to go there but i dont like the smoke. so instead of sacking up and dealing with it or choosing to go elsewhere to have a good time, i will bitch untill someone makes it a law that people can no longer smoke at establishment XYZ"
this is the same breed of people that move into yuppie projects that were built next to a drag track that has been there for YEARS... then bitch about it being too loud and try to get the drag track closed down (Englishtown NJ for instance)... hey assholes you willingly moved next to a drag track! (hey assholes you willingly went to an establishment where smoking was allowed)
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OK, so......you said all that, but it doesn't really do anything to help your argument. The first half has nothing to do with my supposition to you (building codes vs. anti-smoking laws). Then, you manage to at least mention my counterargument (bolded for your convenience), but you don't pursue it.

You call me a "militant nonsmoker", and I contend that you are a "militant smoker". You keep saying that people are "walking into" and bitching about smoking, but that's not really the case.

It's not a matter of "people are smoking there, I'm going someplace else to have a good time". It's a matter of the public having the right to enter an establishment, public or private, and not have their health compromised. It's really not that difficult to comprehend - well, I don't think so, anyway.

Oh, and B - we just got a statewide smoking ban here in Colorado. Part of the law says you can't smoke within x feet of a building entrance (I forget the exact distance). But there haven't been any cases of people getting chased away for loitering. Could very well be different out there, though. If smokers are really feeling harassed - maybe they should get something on the ballot to purposely allow smoking in outdoor areas around buildings, much like nonsmokers did for getting smoking banned indoors.
 
we;re not even by the door.... we're 20+ feet away in the back of the parking lot.

lately, we've migrated across the street to staples, as they close at 9, and then theres an empty lot. pretty sad.
 
Alway be concerned when the majority takes away the rights of a minority. Because one day you will be the minority and Itll be OK to take your rights away then too. Im not a smoker but I do enjoy fixing up my car? Maybe my turbo charger and extra fuel injectors will offend someone else! Or well........................................
 
ACS :: Secondhand Smoke
The figure is hardly negligible, 3,000 deaths per year. I am guessing lung cancer doesn't just happen randomly. Lung cancer in nonsmokers is about as common as heart cancer. Rare. Now, you take almost all nonsmokers who contract lung cancer and ask them where they hang out, what do you get? Bars, clubs, parties, with a smoker spouse, etc. But, no, it can't be the cloud of secondhand smoke they were always in the middle of, must be random chance.
 
yes thats right "ask them where they hang out"
ask them where they voluntarily hung out
ask them who forced them to go to that smoke filled bar night after night
ask them who forced them to stay with thier chain smoking spouse

this has been my point all along
dont like it ? DONT FUCKING GO THERE
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geut3Z5...3250127020_q-4GN7Ghk4Mr7CrUZiBTXYqwABAA%40%40
 
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