Gsr Turbo?

[ryanwolfe911]

quit listening to all these retards babble about cfm this and that. Just try what you think will work and let the results speak for themselves. Everyone's a technician. lol

 

[BigJ]

:sleep: I have no clue what snail said but it seems that he knows his shit, or he can bs his way through everything. Umm yeah, just do what seems like would be streetable in a stock gsr and use that. Off topic, the aftercooled vortech supercharger put down around 270 hp to the wheels in a stock si motor.

 

[Ractive78]

And what tranny should I use, I would like cable but would do hydro. ITR(hydro of course), GSR, LS, or B16?
Id prefer cable because I have a 1991 Integra rs

 

[SnailOnARampage]

Originally posted by Slammed89Integra@Mar 17 2003, 07:59 PM
:sleep: I have no clue what snail said but it seems that he knows his shit, or he can bs his way through everything. Umm yeah, just do what seems like would be streetable in a stock gsr and use that. Off topic, the aftercooled vortech supercharger put down around 270 hp to the wheels in a stock si motor.

Thank you, I think.

 

[SnailOnARampage]

Originally posted by heterosapian@Mar 17 2003, 06:11 PM
Ractive, Ive seen a guy put down 280whp with a gsr on 13?psi with just DSM injectors ( heres the install page, not the dyno, http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_projects...tors/index.html ) and an safc for fuel control, just make sure you cool the shit out of everything. The profec B is bar none the best boost controler ive come across in my experience with dsms.

Snail, psi does not dictate the volume of air. Please, understand this. Half of your posts have been arguing against physics. Sol's bicycle tire example was perfect. More pressure means more heat, not more air. Go ask Boyle.

Yes, you can compress a given amount of air into a smaller space. No, you cannot create matter. The number of air molecules you start with before compression is not going to increase. Sol's point, and mine, is that a larger turbo pulls in more air to begin with, therefore pushing more air after compression than a smaller turbo. The reason a given turbo will move more cfms at higher psi is because it has bigger/steeper/clipped/taller fins to compress all that air, and a bigger compressor housing to move it all through, not simply because more psi = more cfm. And Sol, Id be well impressed to see 400 hp at 10psi only because its hard to believe that a gsr, even one at almost 2liters, can move enough exhaust to get the turbine spooling on a turbo that can produce that many cfms at 10psi

Ractive, Ive seen a guy put down 280whp with a gsr on 13?psi with just DSM injectors ( heres the install page, not the dyno, http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_projects...tors/index.html ) and an safc for fuel control, just make sure you cool the shit out of everything. The profec B is bar none the best boost controler ive come across in my experience with dsms.

This is more evidence to the *phenomenon* that, all other things being equal, 10 psi at the map sensor will only increase torque by 70 percent MAXIMUM

Snail, psi does not dictate the volume of air. Please, understand this. Half of your posts have been arguing against physics. Sol's bicycle tire example was perfect. More pressure means more heat, not more air.

I dont know how you could think that from what I've posted. I have only posted that, if you have 2 bodies of air, one being under pressure (10 psi or whatever the fuck you want) provided the temperature is the same, the one under pressure is going to be more dense, and will yield more O2.

 

[posol]

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 05:05 PM
The thing with turbos is, they do not actually cause the engine to accept more cf/m. They just pump in air at the same rate...600 cf/m for example, but that air is compressed so that it is more dense, therefore yielding more oxygen to burn.

this right here blows everything out of the water.

go look at a compressor map.

heres a t3 60-trim.

here's a big T70

the inner ring is the one too look at.

they do NOT pump air in at the same rate. In fact, rate has NOTHING to do with this. rate is dv/dt, or acceleration or velocity (i forget which.. calculus sucks).

anyway, my point is this. at any given psi, X turbo will make X cfm, where as Y turbo will make Y cfm.

X != Y

 

[posol]

Originally posted by Ractive78@Mar 17 2003, 09:50 PM
So I should go with a t88? or t66?

ummm no.

your stock gsr on a t88! BAHAHAHAHAHA

not only will you lag till 10 grand, once it makes 2 psi, you will blow up.
that turbo id f'in huge.

I'd recommend a t3 60-1 or a t3/t04b

 

[posol]

Originally posted by Ractive78@Mar 17 2003, 10:01 PM
And what tranny should I use, I would like cable but would do hydro. ITR(hydro of course), GSR, LS, or B16?
Id prefer cable because I have a 1991 Integra rs

get a cable. it will make life much easier.
try to score a 93 gsr tranny (b17) if you can
if not, i'd say go with the SiR tranny

 

[posol]

Originally posted by SnailOnARampage@Mar 17 2003, 10:50 PM
This is more evidence to the *phenomenon* that, all other things being equal, 10 psi at the map sensor will only increase torque by 70 percent MAXIMUM[/quote

that's just some number that SEEMS to work for what you have seen.
problem is, its hard to find dynos- let alone dynos that say 10 psi on X motor on them.

 

[posol]

Originally posted by ryanwolfe911@Mar 17 2003, 09:57 PM
quit listening to all these retards babble about cfm this and that. Just try what you think will work and let the results speak for themselves. Everyone's a technician. lol

STFU n00b. if you have nothing to say with any knowldge, get the fuck off my board.

 

[posol]

Snail, psi does not dictate the volume of air.

exactly.

More pressure means more heat, not more air.

not necessarliy....

heat is a byproduct of the compression process. its the same way your motor gets "warmed up". that's the physics part- when humans run, we give off sweat as a byproduct. when air is compressed, it gives off heat.
heat leads to detonation, so we cool it with an intercooler.
so now, we have compressed air, and we cool it off, and send it in, hopefully just a couple degrees above ambeint temp.

Go ask Boyle.

who the fuck is boyle???

Yes, you can compress a given amount of air into a smaller space.

thats exactly what the compressor side of a turbo does.

No, you cannot create matter. The number of air molecules you start with before compression is not going to increase.

right. but everything that happens BEFORE the compression process isn't even involved, as its not part of the pressureized charge pipe yet.

Sol's point, and mine, is that a larger turbo pulls in more air to begin with, therefore pushing more air after compression than a smaller turbo. The reason a given turbo will move more cfms at higher psi is because it has bigger/steeper/clipped/taller fins to compress all that air, and a bigger compressor housing to move it all through, not simply because more psi = more cfm.

you got it

And Sol, Id be well impressed to see 400 hp at 10psi only because its hard to believe that a gsr, even one at almost 2liters, can move enough exhaust to get the turbine spooling on a turbo that can produce that many cfms at 10psi

we shall see. and yes, i have a head that will hold it

 

[SnailOnARampage]

I think we arent even arguing about the same thing anymore....I dont think we are on the same page or ...hell... even in the same book.

One thing that will at least get me to shut up will be showing me dyno charts showing that a big ass turbo at 10 psi will increase the torque of an engine by more than 70 percent.

 

[posol]

like i said, its impossible to find reliable dynos. unless you know of places. i know i don't. theres a few here and there.
but does it say what size turbo? what motor? what boost level? ya know what i mean?

 

[SnailOnARampage]

hondata has a few....i'll have to go look for some.

 

[Domeskilla]

Well, without hard proofed pics.

 

[heterosapian]

who the fuck is boyle???

I meant Gay-Lussac, not Boyle. Boyle is Robert Boyle who came up with "Boyle's Law" which established a logical and mathematical relationship between pressure and volume.
Gay-Lussac is Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac who established a logical and mathematical relationship between pressure and temperature when the volume is constant. When pressure is increased, the temperature is increased, when pressure is decreased, temperature will decrease

that's the physics part-

. Theres no way of getting around it. Yes, we cool the cherge temp considerably before allowing it into out combustion chamber, but the fact remains that temp will always increase with an increase in pressure.

everything that happens BEFORE the compression process isn't even involved, as its not part of the pressureized charge pipe yet.

my only point there is that a larger turbo will draw in more air than a smaller one.

I have only posted that, if you have 2 bodies of air, one being under pressure (10 psi or whatever the fuck you want) provided the temperature is the same, the one under pressure is going to be more dense, and will yield more O2.

dude, thats true but thats not what you were arguing earlier.  You were saying that

at a given temperature, at twice the air pressure, there will be twice as many oxygen molecules, hence twice as much torque

FOR THE SAME VOLUME OF AIR THAT IS TRUE BUT DIFFERENT TURBOS MOVE DIFFERENT VOLUMES OF AIR AND MORE AIR = MORE POWER. THE AMOUNT OF OXYGEN WILL ONLY INCREASE IF MORE OXYGEN IS ADDED, IT DOESN'T APPEAR WHEN YOU SQUISH IT. If you increase pressure you do not miraculously create oxygen.

all of those ideas are based on my *assumption* that the relationship between actual number of oxygen molecules and air pressure is linear, which I have no clue either way, it just makes sense to me that it would be linear.

you admited there that you dont KNOW, you THINK thats true. It is not.

 

[heterosapian]

260 wheel hp at 10 lbs boost. turbo GSR engine

264 whp at 10 lbs on a turbo GSR

271 whp at 10lbs on a vortech B16

 

[heterosapian]

The B16 with its .2 fewer liters making more whp than both gsrs at the same amount of boost. The Si that made the 271 whp has some goliath heavy 18s on it too.

I realise there are many drivtrain and dyno facility factors in effect here, but this is a prety good indicator that 10psi is 10psi but 271-B16a2-hp isnt 260-B18c-hp

 

[hybridsol]

the only way to solve this is get b's car out and dyno it ha,

 

[SnailOnARampage]

Will someone please break down this post and tell me where I am going wrong, because I would like to know.


1. A given engine can only accept so many cubic feet per minute....something like 500 for a GSR

2. A large turbo might have the ability to push 1000 cubic feet per minute at a given pressure like 14.7 psi, while a small turbo might only be able to push 400 cf/m at 14.7 psi

3. An engine is not able to accept any more cubic feet per minute than whatever the displacement is multiplied by the rpms

4. the only way to get more o2 into the engine (since you cant fit more cubic feet in there, unless you bore/stroke it or raise rpms), is to either raise to oxygen/nitrogen ratio (nos), or make the cubic feet that it can accept more dense.

5. when you compress air with a turbo, it does get hotter, but it also gets more dense

6. when you have a turbo way too big for an engine it can NOT force any more air into the engine (in cubic feet) than the engine could accept otherwise . It has to increase the density of the air in order to get more air in there. Increasing pressure also increases density in a gas, provided it stays at the same temperature, so the only way a large turbo can get more air into an engine, is by increasing the pressure. The waste gate is what prevents too much oxygen from getting into the engine by limiting how much the air can be compressed.

7. At full throttle, at a given rpm, with air being the same air being the same temperature, at a given pressure (3 psi) to the map sensor, the amount of air going into an engine will be the same (500 cubic feet for example, under 3 psi of pressure), regardless of the size of turbo pushing it.

8. A larger turbo is prevented from putting in more air than the smaller turbo because of the waste gate. The ONLY way a larger turbo can get more air into a given engine, is to do it at a higher pressure than the smaller turbo.

9. two identical bodies of air, the same size, the same temperature, compressed to the same pressure in the same amount of time, will be exactly the same in density, no matter what size of turbo does the compressing.