H&R Cup Kit VS TEIN BASIC

  • TEIN BA

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UDT

Senior Member
what do you guys think is a better set up for a street car thats aimed at all out perfomance.
 
a street car that's aimed at all out performance? seems like a bit of a paradox in my eyes..

anyways, tein basics suck for the money. especially if you want 'all out performace' and are getting their springs made of jello. what car are these going on? i have no experience with the h&r, i've heard it's good, but i'm sure there's better. koni yellows with gc coilovers and custom rates is what you want - 9 out of 10 autox people will confirm. i ran those, and sold them for some tein ss (i was drunk) and i will be getting them back with stiffer spring rates. tein is overpriced, anything below the RA isn't that great. don't buy into the hype.
 
i think a lot of people don't have experience with teins. i do. ;) look at the spring rates they give www.tein.com .
 
Your statement about the tein basics is kinda BS. They are actually very nice setups for those who dont care about damper adjustment. The springs rates are the same as the HA's, SS's, and the HR's. The Basics are properly valved for their spring rates, and overall, tein makes very nice suspension for the money. If you look at buying comprable JIC, look at spending over a thousand.

True coilovers beat GC koni setups anyday.
 
True coilovers beat GC koni setups any day

yeah that fool is a numb nut to suggest GC over either of the two i had up there. we run JIC's on my moms accord, put um on a G pad and i would put money down any day on the accord over another honda with some GC set up.
 
first to the thread starter, who thinks i'm a numb nut, what are you doing with this car? i feel you should consider this information a little bit before purchasing. if you're just driving around on the streets, and have no intention of competing, the basics will be fine. but you did say 'all out performance', and with the teins, ride comfort is close to stock; therefore, so is handling.

i'm sorry if i come off like a bit of an ass, but it just bugs me to see such uneducated statements posted like this.

any minute now, some one with good knowledge about suspension, and who does not have their head up their ass will come in and back my argument up. let's try to avoid this turning into a fight, but some of your comments are totally absurd, and flat out wrong.

Originally posted by asmallsol+-->
asmallsol) said:
Your statement about the tein basics is kinda BS. They are actually very nice setups for those who dont care about damper adjustment.
i am here to convice you they are not. those who don't care about damper adjustment, are typically those who don't race. dampening adjustment is wonderful if you race a daily driver, because you can be comfortable on the street, and stiff on the track. but as long as the spring and damening stiffness are matched up, they can perform just fine. as you said, tein does do this very nicely; however, let us look at the spring rates:

Originally posted by asmallsol+-->
asmallsol) said:
The springs rates are the same as the HA's, SS's, and the HR's.
wrong. the ha has been discontinued. i've never heard of the hrs, and they are not listed on their website: meaning they never existed, or have also been discontinued.

basic for eg: 392F / 168R <- wow that's like ... stock
flex for eg: 504F / 224R
ss for eg: 392F / 168R you got that one right
ra for eg: 783F / 559R now thats damn nice, as i said earlier
that's all that is listed on their site. (except the n1 and a model in development)

just for the hell of it:
basic for ek: 448F / 224R
flex for ek: 504F / 280R
hg for ek: 364F / 129R
ht for ek: 1119F / 448R
ra for ek: 783F / 559R
re for ek: 783F / 559R
rs for ek: 783F / 559R
ss for ek: 448F / 224R

Originally posted by asmallsol
The Basics are properly valved for their spring rates

of course they are. every semi-respectable manufacturer does this. but look at those spring rates! put a set of basics on and go autox, and that thing will plow so bad. the most you can change them to is + or - 2kg/mm without paying $75 per damper to have them revalved.

why do they do this? i emailed tein, and got a copy and paste response that was mostly bs. here it is:

Originally posted by tein
When we perform the R&D testing, we measure the wheel travel, perform a corner balance on all four corners to get the true weight of a stock
vehicle, and determine what kind of suspension design the vehicle has (ex.
double wish bone, multilink suspension, or a true strut style suspension).
When the prototype damper in produced, we install it on the vehicle to test
proper fitment, insure it has the enough suspension travel, damping force
and has the right spring rates. The vehicle is then driven on multiple test
drives to ensure proper ride comfort and performance. When the R&D
department feel's they have designed a coilover kit with enough suspension
travel, damping force and has the right spring rates without sacrificing
that much ride quality, Tein Japan will then take this data and start mass
producing the coilover kit. The reason why we do the R&D testing this way is
to insure the best performance in a coilover kit. One piece of important
information that most consumers forget is the damping force of the shock. We
produce the springs to match the shocks to ensure proper spring control.
TEIN takes a lot of pride and years of experience in all of the products we
manufacture.


yay that's wonderful. but it's mostly a lie actually, believe it or not. i looked into it more deeply, and was informed that they acutally did in fact do the R&D over in japan a few years ago. the driving style, and typical suspension setup method in japan is dramatically different than it is over here. they run hugely front biased spring rates, some as crazy as a 22k front / 6k rear. however, they will run with -3.5 front camber, -.5 rear, toe out in the rear, 225-45/16 in the front, 195-55/15 in the back, and a 26mm rear swaybar. also, they tend to trail brake late into the corners, and actually sometimes take different lines.

a little different than what us guys over here have in mind isn't it? why? we discussed this on another forum, and pretty much came up empty. but the consensus was it pretty much boils down to traditions and schooling methods; also, their tracks over there are much smoother and more perfect. also, feel free to take a look at the spring rates available for other JDM coilover setups. the front bias is commonplace.

so unless you're planning on setting up your car and driving it like they do, tein really is not that good of a choice, because of the front biased springs. but if you for some reason desire an understeering car, go for it. ;)

Originally posted by asmallsol
and overall, tein makes very nice suspension for the money. If you look at buying comprable JIC, look at spending over a thousand.

i can vouch for their dampers - they are pretty nice, i won't lie. but the spring rates are not good for any person who intends to autox or road race, with the traditional us style setup and driving techniques. you certainly want more of a rear bias coming from your spring rates. about jic, i have 0 experience with them, so i can't comment.

asmallsol
@
True coilovers beat GC koni setups anyday

i honestly laughed out loud at this claim, because it seriously shows your lack of knowlege and experience with either setup. do you know what a koni shock with a coilover sleeve on it is? koni makes better shocks than tein, and you get custom rates from eibach (gc=eibach, who actually makes all coil springs and valvesprings for usdm companies fyi). with custom rates, you pick how you want your car to be setup, and are not locked into outrageously soft and front biased out of the box rates like 392F / 168R.

if you'd like, talk to vtecvoodo on ht about tein basics; he knows all about springs, and can tell you about the basics, and what happens when you put a tein spring on a shock dyno. he actually refused to sell them to people, because they are not worth the price tag. then ask some jdm bling show guys who don't race about teins. :)

i have had both setups, i got the koni gcs from a friend with 200F / 300R, and it was nice, a little on the soft side; but i grew tired of it, got drunk, and wanted to try these teins out to see what all the fuss was about. i purchased a set of the ss of someone having rates of 448F / 224R. the car did not handle as well, and understeer was a problem. but then a comptech rear anti-sway / tie bar fixed that up pretty nicely. now it's close to neutral, but a little unpredictable at times. i will soon be selling the ss to go back to the koni / gc with rates somewhere around 500F / 650R. :D

UDT

yeah that fool is a numb nut to suggest GC over either of the two i had up there. we run JIC's on my moms accord, put um on a G pad and i would put money down any day on the accord over another honda with some GC set up.


how much money do you have? where's the 'g pad'? and i'm sure my friends 89 civic si with koni yellows and gc coilovers will pull a good bit more than your mom's accord. i'd say it seems like you're a bit of a numb nut for putting $1500 coilovers on your mother's accord; and for thinking that one upgrade automatically makes it handle like a porsche. does the accord have any other suspension upgrades? don't forget it is a heavy accord, with a heavy motor up front.

i think the problem is, you fail to realize that there is a lot more to suspension tuning than just buying expensive stuff. especially when you can get a better setup for less money. but whatever, i'm just a numb nut. suit yourself. :beer:

edit cause that was a long ass post :blink:
 
Um yeah........ i had nothing to do with the set up thats on my moms accord it is her and my moms B/F's project. You dont know shit about shit let me just say that first and for most, secondly anything can be slopping deppeding on any number of reasons who knows why your car sucked balls so bad when you tryed the teins bushings, the driver, tires who knows. The question about the H&R's vs the TEIN is very valid ones a coil over the others a shock and spring there both in the same price range so it makes it a hard chice between the two i was looking for specific comparison, but you got all off topic and then tryl to tell me a GC set up is better then the tein basic.........i dont agree and i feel its numb nuty of you to say. You could ramble on al lday about what you have read and what you did with your GC set up im not interested in a sleeve......sorry.

And my moms accord has more then just the JIC's, and yes they are not cheap but guess what.........you get what you pay for. They have been corner weighted with a camber kit and 4 point uper strut tower with misc sway bars on 17"
W-orks wrapped in dunlop sport 9000's. The car will be getting an h22 and rear disk next month. Its been done right and im still willing to bet it would pull circles around yours and your friends cars. Heres a few pictures

The car that i was curious about this set up for would be either a GSR or an EG not sure yet, and it would be more geared to auto X though it wouldint need to be confined to any specific class, i dont care if im not competitive in my class it would be for fun mainly.


Please no more stupid comments and lets try and stick to the subject please*

i think the problem is, you fail to realize that there is a lot more to suspension tuning than just buying expensive stuff. especially when you can get a better setup for less money. but whatever, i'm just a numb nut. suit yourself.

Yeah dude i think im coo with out your advice, i have done ok so far with out your advice with things i have had to make decisions on pertaining to my car so i think it's safe to say i will be ok

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EG's i will admit are pretty under spinged, however, when you look at the DC2 set, they are 8kg front, 6kg rear, they are the same as all the ones I listed.

As for the availibility of the HR's and the HA's, both are still available in japan. I have the HA's for the dc2R on my sol. I have been to about 15 autocross's last year and will be going to my "local" roadcouse come this spring. With a ITR rear swaybar, I get more then enough oversteer, if not too much. I have driven my freind's DC2 with koni GC setup, and I think mine handles better. Both of us run the same front sway and the same rear, and I pull better times then him at autocross's.


GC's are 300, then 40 more for the koni adaptors
Koni's themselves are 500. Thats 840 to run the koni GC setup, and add even more if you want stiffer springs.

With the tein basics, I have seen them as low as $670. Here you get more suspension travel, stiff 8kg/6kg springs and overall good handling car.

No tein's are not the best suspension, but for the price, you get a damn good product where compeditors charge 100's more for a comprable product.


I have talked with tein, and they have said, if you go with the DC2 setup, the valving is on the agressive side and is ideal for a race/street setup.

About them riding close to stock is totally bs. I can garantee you that with 8kg front 6kg rear, the car will ride nowhere close to stock. It is a very stiff springrate for roads around here. Even on a softer setting with my HA's, they are extremly stiffer then stock. Again, I do race on these, and I love them.
 
:withstupid: Still looking for input on the H&R cup kit though <_<
 
Originally posted by UDT@Mar 7 2004, 06:40 PM
:withstupid: Still looking for input on the H&R cup kit though <_<

sorry if i got a little heated there, i just don't appreciate childish name calling too much. i'm also a little biased, and i have personal beef with tein. :beer:

you do know that the h&r cup kit is koni yellow struts that are painted gray and labeled as h&r, with h&r race springs. right? i've never experienced them, so i can't really comment on them. if i remember correctly, the rates are 450F/250R or close to that (i forget). so with the h&r kit, you have good adjustable struts, but with weak front biased spring rates.

and with the tein basics for the dc (which i hope you would get... i just didn't post the rates to support my argument :p) you have fixed dampers with better springs - but still a front bias.

it's kind of a tradeoff. what other suspension mods do you have, or plan to have, and what are your alignment specs?

i voted for the h&r, but you couldn't pay me to run either one.

i know i know, but with my proposed koni gc combo, you have good adjustable struts, and whatever the hell spring rates you want. why aren't you interested in a sleeve? sure it's another 100 bucks, but your suspension is the most important part of your car, and it's a known fact that this is by far the best bang for the buck setup out there.

and to uphold the 'you get what you pay for' idea 100% of the time, can be quite a fallacy when it comes to car parts, among other things. it applies to cheap stuff (ie apc, obx, etc), but not expensive stuff all the time (spoon, mugen, cough tein cough).
 
ya know now that i think about it i never really intended on running either i was mor eless curious after i looked into the two being that there in the same price bracket. i will be running the base model JIC's or tein SS or FLEX though i could end up with a good spring and shock depending on where else the money would be spent.
 
I did a ton of research on the Koni Yellow / GC vs Tein system when I spec'd out my suspension a year ago... and I ended up going with the Tein FLEX system. Sure, if I was going to run the car all the time on the road course and not drive it at all on the street, I would go with a more aggressive spring rate setup... but I'm not. I just ordered the FLEX with 504/336 rates. It's actually pretty nice, especially with the Eibach sway bars- neutral to mild understeer at the limit. I'm still thinking about a thicker sway bar in back later on.

The cost of the GC/Koni setup was just way too high. You order the GC springs with custom rates (I did that before I got the Teins, but sold the GC later once I figured I needed new shocks too), the Konis, the adapters- THEN you pay $100 a pop (or more) to get the shocks revalved to run your custom spring rates. The Yellows still won't last too long with spring rates above 500 lb/in, so you'd have to get them rebuilt to run crazy rates. Once you add it up, you might as well buy a full coilover system. Just the Koni/GC setup without a shock rebuild added up to MORE than my FLEX system.

I like the way my FLEX system feels right now- and when the Civic transitions to a track only car, you can bet I'll get the Teins rebuilt for something like 600/800... but not while I'm driving 1000 miles a week.

:)

Oh and guys- stop arguing PLEASE. jwn7 has really good points, although Koni/GC isn't the end-all solution for suspension... and you don't need to be calling each other names.
 
fuck tien. :)

I hate my ha's more and more everyday, and the car hasn't seen pavement since october. lol

i'm thnking about getting a set of the Sections like I got for the nissan for the sol as well.
 
Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Mar 8 2004, 07:26 AM
fuck tien. :)

I hate my ha's more and more everyday, and the car hasn't seen pavement since october. lol

i'm thnking about getting a set of the Sections like I got for the nissan for the sol as well.

sections?
And i refraised it and said its a "numb nuty" thing to say so there was no name calling on my end, and he may have a few points here and there but see the problem was he was not on topic he was talking about to brands that are not even listed as options and he was in a sence doing exactly what you just said was far from true , the GC set up being end all basicly, and it just so simply not by a long shot. Theres a different setup for every second in an hour let evry day of the month, millions apon billions of different combos.
 
To much for a street car, i think the JICs on the accord are boderline pointless for a street car. I mean dont get me wrong there killer and that cars on fuckin rails but if i think there becoming over kill those things you picked out are extream. Very very cool/impressive though. Your gonna be running them on the sol at some point B?
 
i just stumbled upon this link: http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/shocks.html
it's long, but holy crap is it a good read. read it. don't buy shocks until you do.

Originally posted by that link
"When buying shocks, especially lately, reputation is more important than hype," explains Jay Morris. "Many companies have become aware of the demand for quality suspension components and have thrown their hats into the ring with hastily-developed shocks."
"Paradoxically, high-quality companies are left at the bus stop regarding new customer perception (Bilstein). Even then, there are so many inexperienced 'experts' in the Internet chat rooms that a lot of misinformation is being repeated as gospel. Try to get an opinion from someone who has owned more than one shock."


hrm.... :D
and i still maintain that koni / gcs is the end all solution to suspension :p
 
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