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Help with turbo on stock Honda CRX 1.6 VTEC B16A

Discussion in 'Forced Induction' started by JOeS, May 30, 2004.

  1. JOeS

    JOeS Junior Member

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    I have searched the internerd and I have done calculations based on books from Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes and Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.

    My car:
    Honda CRX 1.6 VTEC stock B16A with V-AFC and DC Sports ceramic coated header.

    My goal:
    Daily driven car with 225 HP. Competing 5 days a year with dragracing for fun. Reliability is important!

    Calcuted:
    Pressure ratio: 1,49
    Air flow: 275 CFM / 19 lbs/min @ 7600 rpm
    Boost: 0,5 bar / 7,25 PSI

    I have looked at a lot of compressor-maps, and although not ideal I think the best option for me is a T3 Super 60.
    I'm not sure what Manifold I should get. I don't want a log type but I want an equal length manifold. I've been thinking of buying a SSAutochrome (I know) and make some support for the turbo and the downpipe to prevent it from cracking. But that's not what I'm concernerd about. If you look into the collector, see thread, Ive noticed the sharp edges of the tubes. These sharp will cause some serious overheating problems and I don't think the material will sustain this kind of beating for a long time. Further I have noticed that the exit for the wastegate is pointing the opposite position of the exhaust flow making it hard for the exaust gasses to get to the wastegate. This will cause creeping.

    Another option for me is the one made by toyosupr, but he's not doing this for a long time plus I haven't seen any dynographs of the manifold yet. The place of the wastegate is good, except from the 90 degree angle the exhaust gasses has to make (boost creep). Plus I haven't seen any pics of the inside of the collector, so I can't compare it to the SSAutochrome. Although everyone seem very positive about his manifolds.

    Any other suggestions? I'm on a tight budget, so the expensive ones aren't an option... :( Plus I don't think they have to cost that much. Just look at the one made by toyosupr. And also I don't really know what A/R ratio I should get? Greater A/R means greater air flow/speed to the turbo (more isn't better), and lower means less. Any ideas?

    Because I will be running 7,25 PSI I think I would be fine with the stock injectors / fuel pump / ECU. If not I can do the AFC-hack and put in 440cc injectors plus fuel pump.

    IC-piping will be 2,5". Any larger will promote more lag.

    Exhaust piping will be 3" all the way because I don't want anything to hold those exhaust gasses back from leaving my engine / turbo. (Restrainig the turbo from running freely)

    So, I need some advice from all the people who have done this is practise. I know all in theory, but I want feedback from people out there in "the real world". Does the above make any sense?
     
  2. [Freemantle]

    [Freemantle] Senior Member

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    All of the above makes perfect sense, but you need to decide if you are building a "maximum-effort" system or not. Seeing that you defined yourself as having a tight budget, I would think not.

    If you are going down the budget route, you need to accept what works. You can get a perfect manifold, but that will cost you quite some coin.

    Wastegate flanges are almost always positioned in a bad spot. It's not the manufaturer, it's your engine bay. There simply isn't enough room in a Honda engine bay to accomidate a wastegate with equal runner flow as compared to the turbine.

    This is okay, I have a friend who runs a crappy ebay manifold that wastegates from primarily cylinder 4 only and he still performs well, runs a 13.2 (del sol), and dosen't boost creep on the street. His setup isn't maximum effort, he'll be the first to tell you that. But he does make reliable, reproduceable power.

    Isn't that what most of us want anyway? A full-race manifold isn't necessary.



    "Air flow: 275 CFM / 19 lbs/min"
    Is that at redline? Mine is 24.3 lbs/min, I didn't think the B16 flowed so much less. I guess you can get away with it with your higher BSFC.

    As for your fuel, do you mean FMU when you say ecu? Or hondata/uberdata? This is a huge difference.

    As for determining your ideal turbo -
    -get photoshop or find a friend that has it.
    -go to google and search for "compressor maps"
    -put each of the graphs in the same picture.
    -On each layer, click "Select->color range" and select the white of each layer.
    -Delete it.
    -Make a new layer on the botom. Fill it in with white.

    Now you have a bunch of compressor maps laying on top of each other. If you wish, you can double click each one in the layer panel and click "color overlay" to change their colors so you can differentiate from them easier.

    -Line up the scales of each compressor map so the axis of each graph overlays in to one.
    -Plot your boost line. Assume full boost at 33%.

    Voila! Hide compressor maps you dont want to ook at so you can examine the lines and compare easily.

    Here is what to look for: A a good distance away from the surge line, and plenty of time in efficiency island. You dont want to exit efficency island if possible. If you can stay in perfect efficiency from 60% flow to redline, then you have the ideal turbocharger setup.

    My h23 loved the .40 and .60 trim t3/t04e, as well as straight t3 .60.
    I ended up buying a .63 t3/t04e. I'll tell you how it worked out in a few months ;)
     
  3. JOeS

    JOeS Junior Member

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    Im not going for maximum effort, my goal is 225 HP. It should stay reliable because it's daily driven..

    Well maybe you could say I'm going for maximum effort for 225 HP. And I don't think I WILL need a www.full-race.com manifold to obtain that goal. The key is tuning, get that air/fuel ratio correct. Nothing to do with a 1g manifold in my opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

    The place for the wastegate and my engine bay makes perfect sense to me now. Stupid I didn't came to that myself...

    The airflow is calculated at 7600 rpm, because there's the most power available for the stock B16A.

    And I mean the stock ECU. I have read that the stock injectors / fuel pump / ECU is good enough for 7 PSI. Isn't it correct?

    What turbo does your friend run on his manifold? Make, type and A/R? And does he have a B16A2?

    Thanx for your advice!
     
  4. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    IMO, on a budget-

    I'd srcap the more BLING manifold in favor of some decent fuel management.

    FMU's suck.
    the hack, isn't much better
    uberdata is perfect for your budget setup- but you have to know what you are doing with it/ have a tuner.
     
  5. JOeS

    JOeS Junior Member

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    Thanx pissedoffsol, the point is that I live in the Netherlands. In other words: there doesn't exist a Honda tuner with a dyno. All the "tuning" shops over here are nothing more than garages who put stuff on, like exhaust and air filters. When they do install a turbo or SC, there's no tuning. They even haven't got a dyno...

    So, I have to do with experience from people. Hoping it'll run on my car as well...

    I agree, fuel management is the key for tuning. You have got to have the fuel mixture right. NA or turbocharged, 7 PSI or 20 PSI, it doesn't matter.

    I can do it with uberdata, but I can't have it properly tuned...

    And I don't want the BLING manifold, I just want an equal length one. I don't mind if it was painted purple with pink dots. It just has to be equal length for the exhaust gas flows.
     
  6. [Freemantle]

    [Freemantle] Senior Member

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    Ouch, it is going to be tough without a dyno.

    I wouldn't trust the stock fuel maps to support any boost personally.

    My friend has the B16a2, like you. His name is Jason Bourgois. He is running a straight T3 .45 trim wastegated at 10lbs (we are pretty sure he sees much less pressure at the manifold, as his intercooler is an ebay special too). The A/R is pathetically small in my opinion, but he is a believer that boost lag is evil.

    You case is an instance where I would not reccomend uberdata, simply because you can't tune the car while running. Since you can't find a dyno, I'd invest in a wideband O2 sensor for your assistance.
     
  7. JOeS

    JOeS Junior Member

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    Thanx Freemantile, I've read about the wideband. But I haven't found really what brand and model. What I have found is that you can read the current air/fuel ratio and that people recommend one, but can you also actually tune it? What can you exactly do with a wide band?
     
  8. ndogg

    ndogg Member

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    the stock injectors/pump/ecu is NOT EVEN CLOSE to good enough for 7psi. you have absolutely no reason to get a full-race manifold for 225hp. your goals are easily attainable with a cheap log... just tune it right via some dsm 450s and uberdata.
     
  9. JOeS

    JOeS Junior Member

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    I don't want the log because it's not ideal. Besides most logs have the wastegate in just 1 or 2 runners. So there's no question about it for me, it has to be equal length.
     
  10. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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  11. JOeS

    JOeS Junior Member

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    Thanx for your help pissedoffsol.

    But it's not the hp that's my priority. The driveability should be good as well. And I want a construction that is the best. A manifold has to be equal length so the gasflows won't interfere with each other. That's a fact. A log style is a wrong design, it's just cheaper to make. Plus it's easier to make from cast iron. That's why manufacturers make them, not because they are a good design. Plus the place of the wastegates of most of those logs are wrong in my opinion.
     
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