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History Repeating itself

Discussion in 'Members' Lounge' started by Capt. Orygun, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. Capt. Orygun

    Capt. Orygun Win the Day

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    Cel made a prediction last week, and I'll make one as well.

    in the early 1990's we pulled out of Somali for reasons similar but obviously not identical to Iraq

    Rep. John Murtha Urged Somalia Pullout in '93

    read what Bin Laden says, the withdrawal showed them how week we were as a nation which emboldened them to plan new attacks

    like 9/11

    My Prediction: If we pull out of Iraq; Al Qaeda, Hamas and even Iran will receive the fuel they need to take even further steps in their war against us. Leaving Iraq before victory is attained will in fact erase all of the work we have accomplished since 9/11 and yes, America will then be attacked again.

    And when it does you can thank the left wing "run away" philosophy
     
  2. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    define: "victory in iraq".

    i think thats the real problem here... there is no set in stone solution...
     
  3. BigJ

    BigJ I'm just about that action Boss. VIP

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    Agreed with Sol.
     
  4. Capt. Orygun

    Capt. Orygun Win the Day

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    that's funny because I saw something about that. People criticize Bush for not defining victory in Iraq but he's done it a thousand times.

    Victory in Iraq is:
    a stable democracy which has the support of the Iraqi people

    a military which can defend itself against enemies at home and abroad

    and a social/economic system which provides enough opportunity to it's people to keep them from turning to terror (the idea is that happy people don't want to blow themselves and others up)
     
  5. Seany-izzle

    Seany-izzle New Member

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    In a fucking house.
    then i guess that "mission accomplished" was a little premature huh?
     
  6. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    we'll probably all be dead before that happens.... war or not.

    these people keep recruiting 5 yr old kids to learn the ways of jihad... and even when we're all dead, they'll still be recruiting.

    just like, there will always be gangs in the US. there's no stopping it no matter how hard you try.
     
  7. klyph

    klyph Dismember VIP

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    Victory in Iraq:

    Iraq is divided into 10 States, and added to the Union, 10 new stars on the flag.
    All Iraqi citizens attend Baptist church and worship Jesus.
    An oil pipeline is built across the Pacific to keep America on the move, and a billboard facing China is erected that says NYAH NYAH NYAH!

    There I defined it. Now enlist in the Armed Forces and go make it happen!
     
  8. Capt. Orygun

    Capt. Orygun Win the Day

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    Please avoid fanatical statements, this is a thread for logical debate
     
  9. klyph

    klyph Dismember VIP

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    comic relief?
    :bow: a fousand aporogies
    Is it stuffy in here, or is this another political thread?
     
  10. DarkHand

    DarkHand Senior Member VIP

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    But that's an impossibility. It's never happened in the history of, well, history. It's not just something that's tough, it's something that's literally impossible because of fundamental cultural differences. I can put all the money I have towards trying to make myself fly under my own power, but it won't happen, because it's an impossibility. We can spend all our money as a country trying to flip an entire world culture upside down to match our own ideals, but it just won't happen.
     
  11. Capt. Orygun

    Capt. Orygun Win the Day

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    it's political

    Victory is still attainable in Iraq and our Military proved it again last weekend. We killed 200 insurgents and captured another 100 over the weekend when we foiled a terror plot. What did we lose? 2 Soldiers, that's a 100kill 50capture:1 Killed ratio

    FOXNews.com - Video Launch Page - FOXNews.com

    I didn't want to link Fox news because I know you guys HATE it, but apparently it's the only news source that reported it... *cough* liberal media *cough*
     
  12. reckedracing

    reckedracing TTIWWOP VIP

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    but we went into afghanistan after 9/11 to rid the world of bin laden...
    oh wait...
     
  13. Capt. Orygun

    Capt. Orygun Win the Day

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    Don't worry, I haven't forgotton about the 2000 times you've told me that

    it however doesn't change the fact that it WILL happen again if we leave. History has taught us that
     
  14. klyph

    klyph Dismember VIP

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    The source of all these arguments "discussions" or "debates" as you call them, is that neither side can agree why we're over there to begin with.

    We went to go after Osama and fight terrorism.
    No, It was because of the WMD's
    Well I think it was just for oil and money.
    Nuh uh, it was to end Saddams regime and create a better govt. for the people.
    But what about 9/11?

    The govt. isn't gonna tell you straight why we went over there, because the real reasons aren't good for our public image.
    So, they say things like "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and "We're bringing democracy to an oppressed people" with the hopes that it will wash the guilt and bitter taste of war from America's mouth. Then they refuse to air footage of American soldiers dying and cargo planes filled with flag draped coffins, because it would remind Americans of the hell that is war.
    "But we killed lots more of them than they killed of us"
    And that justifies it how? All that means is that at this rate, we will kill every member of their jihadic muslim society before we run out of "patriots" to use as cannon fodder. It seems to me that we spend more time, money, and American blood trying to justify being over there and making excuses why we need to "win this war" than it could possibly be worth. I mean
    WHY ARE WE OVER THERE?
    what could possibly be worth all this killing and violence perpetuating more violence?
    Think about this, should bringing democracy to Iraq be #1 on our list of priorities? If you REALLY believe the govt. spent these BILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of American lives to improve the quality of life for some poor bastards living in caves, you need to wake the fuck up man.

    Bush said it was to protect our freedom, so he sent our armies overseas instead of protecting our borders from illegal immigrants that invade our country on a daily basis.
    HUH?

    After 9/11, people said we need to avenge the deaths of the Americans that died in the attack, but will revenge ever solve the problem of why they hate us so much? NO. they hate us because we are better than them. We have a beautiful country with a thriving economy, and they live in shitholes. Of course they are eager to accept a religion where if you kill those who you envy most, you will be rewarded with eternal glory.

    In short, it doesn't matter WHY we went over there. There were obviously a multitude of fabricated justifications for this mass murder we call war. You will never defeat an idea with guns and bombs. You will never end tyranny if you cannot be honest with your own citizens. You will never have a government that HONESTLY tries to help other people when the basis of said government is capitalism and greed.
     
  15. cheese9988

    cheese9988 Senior Member VIP

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    As much as I don't like us being over there. I think a pullout not would be a bad idea and would give terroism a fair advantage. As with all nations, big or small, its always going to be a work in progress.
     
  16. klyph

    klyph Dismember VIP

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    fair advantage is an oxymoron
     
  17. Capt. Orygun

    Capt. Orygun Win the Day

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    you bring up some good points klyph, I won't even disagree with what your saying as a whole. However your ideas are a bit Utopian. The sad fact is that if we stop fighting they (Muslim extremists) will start killing Americans on American soil again.

    You say you don't want this war? Neither do I, I didn't want to jump through my ass for the better part of 2 years (03/04) while I was in the Air Force, I didn't want my best friend Chad to go to Iraq for 18 months and come back and have nervous breakdowns weekly for the first 6 months he was home, I certainly didn't want my cousin Zach to go to the philippines and clear jungle of Al Qaeda after 9/11, hell last Superbowl he had a flash back and we had to chase his ass through town to get him to come home. And I certainly don't want my little brother to go to Baghdad in 3 months but he surely will.

    You said the truth is ugly and you are right. And the truth is the war; not Iraq but the larger War on Terror taking place i Afghanistan, Iraq, the philippines and occasionally NYC was forced upon us. Our enemies will continue to force war upon us until they are beaten.

    It's easy to want to stop the war because we can't as yet see the end of the tunnel, and it is disturbing. But we are winning. in 3 years we have had successful campaigns in the Asian Pacific and Afghanistan, we can still win Iraq if we keep our resolve?

    Why Iraq? All political bullshit aside once you understand that they will fight us regardless of our actions you can start to appreciate my view on Iraq. I don't want war period BUT if a war is going to be fought, I'd rather it be an away game. And after everything my fellow soldiers and my family have been through I would not think of quiting now, because that would make their efforts for nothing and that is a fate that our military brothers and sisters fear more then the nightmares they deal with every night

    so until this stops

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    neither should this

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Celerity

    Celerity Well-Known Member

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    The "Mission Accomplished" sign you saw was posted behind bush because the ship he was speaking from ended their tour.

    And our goal in Iraq is like that after WWII, and we did that. No one said we could because no one had done it - ever.

    They also said we couldn't win a war in the Balkans. We did that too.
     
  19. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    I think relating to WWII is not a valid point.
    I see the similarities (small group taking over, trying to convince everyone else that their sect > other sects, and so forth).

    After Hitler offed himself, the party pretty much fell apart within days.

    Saddam has been out of power for a while now (2 years i think?) and is now dead as well, and the people of his regime are as strong as they were 3 years ago.

    The terrorists (the SS?) don't need a person to be a leader. They feel that God or Jihad or whatever the fuck they call him is their leader. And so long as that character exists (and it always will), there will be no demise of them.

    IMO, the only way to win this war, and really 'win' it, is to kill each and every last gun toting iraqui.
    Until then, there will always be more to join in, more to follow the way of Jihad, and more extremist fucks strapping bombs to themselves because Alah told him to do it.

    The problem on top of that, is that the kids growing up don't know better.

    Just like our grandparents, their fathers fought in WW1, and it was pretty much a standard that if you were 18 in the mid 40's, that you joined the service and went to WWII. That was what they knew.

    The newspapers there are so tight wound an un-free, that the only education they are getting is that of the "way", and not of "this world".

    So, not only do we need to kill each and every last one, we also need to go into schools, and start educating the kids about war, freedom, democracy, and most of all, ethics of what's right and what's wrong.
     
  20. Celerity

    Celerity Well-Known Member

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    Completely flip-flop wrong.

    Also, Your ideas of "Kill them all" sounds a lot like what they say about us.
     
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