History Repeating itself

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The problem lies with the fact that these people are not only willing to die for their cause, they *WANT* to die for their cause. Their leaders have twisted their religion into this belief that if you go out killing as many "infidels" as possible, that you will reach paradise.

That's pretty fuckin' mind blowing.

The Japanese were willing to slam planes into our carriers and battleships, but that was for the honor of their country... the same reason our soldiers are willing to put their lives on the line. We don't want to die, but goddamnit if that's what must be done to preserve the future, so be it.

Religion trumps just about everything over there, and the radicals are the most vocal and (unfortunately) the ones most follow. It is that very reason that I do not want to see religion trump everything over here. There should be a big fat wall between religion and just about everything else, and the hellhole that is "over there" is the exact reason why.

My whole beef with the Iraq war is that we, for the most part, were lied to. If you must take this country to war, so be it, but damnit tell me the truth!

Norman Schwartzkopf couldn't have hit the nail any more directly on the head:

"On the question of going to Baghdad. If you remember the Vietnam war, we had no international legitimacy for what we did. As a result we, first of all, lost the battle of world public opinion and eventually we lost the battle at home. In the Gulf War we had great international legitimacy in the form of eight United Nations Resolutions, every one of which said "Kick Iraq out of Kuwait", did not say one word about going into Iraq, taking Baghdad, conquering the whole country and hanging Saddam Hussein. That's point number one.


Point number two, had we gone on to Baghdad, I don't believe the French would have gone and I'm quite sure that the Arab coalition would not have gone, the coalition would have ruptured and the only people that would have gone would have been the United Kingdom and the United States of America.


And, oh by the way, I think we'd still be there, we'd be like a dinosaur in a tar pit, we could not have gotten out and we'd still be the occupying power and we'd be paying one hundred percent of all the costs to administer all of Iraq."

The Administration's strategy isn't working and the Democrats couldn't come up with a new strategy on how to deal with the issue if they tried, and honestly, at this point... what the fuck do we do? Sticking around is only bringing home bodies and not bringing much stability to the area. Pulling out would only fire up the real terrorists and leave Iraq an unstable mess.



Caught between Iraq and a hard place.
 
Sabz also makes a good point, my prediction is still however valid, if we *loose* in Iraq it will embolden Al Qaeda

and killing Bin Laden would make him a Marter (sp?) and do as much to help their cause as it did to hurt it assuming his money would still be around
 
I'll toss in a prediction of my own.

One of my biggest worries right now is the news that Israel has planned/will plan to strike Iran with tactical "mini-nukes". I think this ranks up there on the "stupidest fuckin' thing you could do" list. Israel... I know you're worried about another holocaust, I know you're hearing "Wipe Israel off the map!" from every direction, but FUCK... you need not strike, especially with anything that has the word "nuclear" attached to it. They will take the attack as a "See! The Zionist pigs want to destroy us!" move and roll with it.

My prediction: If Israel strikes Iran, it will be the prelude to World War III. Every single middle east nation with even the slightest notion of wanting to attack Israel will. We will retaliate against them, being the closest ally to Israel. Terror attacks will skyrocket, everyone will get trigger happy and it'll be a shit fest on an unthinkable scale.
 
Disagreed: If "you" are Israel, you NEED to flex military might to maintain security in that region. Use it or don't use it, They MUST do this to protect against their threats. Remember, these enemies of theirs aren't just saying "I think all the jews should leave" They are standing in front of podiums, chanting to their nation that they WILL destory Israel and wipe them off the map, because Allah wills it.

You're not looking at the Israeli conflict correctly. Muslims do not bargain with jews.
 
Celerity said:
Disagreed: If "you" are Israel, you NEED to flex military might to maintain security in that region.

You're not looking at the Israeli conflict correctly. Muslims do not bargain with Jews.
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I agree, this is a incredibly non PC thing to say and I'm not suggesting we do it. But one would have to agree that if we and Israel unleashed a massive Air Campaign in the Middle East (striking Iran's nuke facilities, Hamas/Jihad buildings, suspected terrorist camps, wiping out Iraqi Shiite militias) we could in as little as three months set back the Anti Western movement by 20 years
 
Nothing I say is PC. And I do suggest doing it. (Destroying the area)

But 20 years isn't enough for those goatfuckers. Today they are like 340 A.D. 20 years ago they were like 320 A.D. Big deal. They never forget shit - they are still upset at the US for that whole Barbery War thing.
 
Sabz5150 said:
I'll toss in a prediction of my own.

One of my biggest worries right now is the news that Israel has planned/will plan to strike Iran with tactical "mini-nukes". I think this ranks up there on the "stupidest fuckin' thing you could do" list. Israel... I know you're worried about another holocaust, I know you're hearing "Wipe Israel off the map!" from every direction, but FUCK... you need not strike, especially with anything that has the word "nuclear" attached to it. They will take the attack as a "See! The Zionist pigs want to destroy us!" move and roll with it.

My prediction: If Israel strikes Iran, it will be the prelude to World War III. Every single middle east nation with even the slightest notion of wanting to attack Israel will. We will retaliate against them, being the closest ally to Israel. Terror attacks will skyrocket, everyone will get trigger happy and it'll be a shit fest on an unthinkable scale.
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well i kind of agreee with ya.....i belive a world war is coming, wether it starts because of korea, egypt....idk but i think one is coming....

you cant just pull out of iraq, it will only have made shit worse, and leave us open for more atacks, but by staying there we only infuriate those who live by the Jehiad. It is a lose lose situation for us right now, and honestly the consequences of both leaving and staying need to be wayed verry carefully. and what ever option comes out with less american casualties needs to be used...in my opinon that is staying in iraq, and continue to capture, kill, and pin down terorist... Like some one said above a war is being fought wether we leave or not...do you really want to bring the fight over here...are soldiers inlist in the military for one reason...to die for there country..that is your job..despite what people think...its not cheap means to get college paid for, and now the majority of the public has been reminded of that. I belive when "and i mean when" we allow the war to come back to american soil we have lost... it will disrupt the "american way" wich is the reason why are soldiers inlist and put there lives on the line...they want to protect the american way, our freedom...
 
Celerity said:
Disagreed: If "you" are Israel, you NEED to flex military might to maintain security in that region. Use it or don't use it, They MUST do this to protect against their threats. Remember, these enemies of theirs aren't just saying "I think all the jews should leave" They are standing in front of podiums, chanting to their nation that they WILL destory Israel and wipe them off the map, because Allah wills it.

You're not looking at the Israeli conflict correctly. Muslims do not bargain with jews.
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I'm quite aware of this. However personally, if I were in a dark room full of jumpy, trigger happy people with shotguns... the last thing I'd do is turn on a flashlight.
 
Sabz5150 said:
I'm quite aware of this. However personally, if I were in a dark room full of jumpy, trigger happy people with shotguns... the last thing I'd do is turn on a flashlight.
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but you aren't you're in your mom's basement taking shots at our government in between shifts at 7-11 ;) J/K

seriously their culture respects power and might, even if we don't agree with their beliefs. A far better metaphor is that we're in a cell block and the other people we're doing time with have mistaken our kindness for weakness (Bin Laden's comments back up my statement of Muslims seeing America as weak)

we should show them the difference
 
How can people say we're in a lose-lose situation ?! American Deaths ? It's safer to be an American in Baghdad than it is in Detroit !

Costs ? Katrina squandered away more money in fixing up 8 blocks of bars and strip clubs than we could accept in Iraq!

Who cares if it benefits the US. Not even taking into account that it keeps Terrorists out of the US. Don't care. We freed a previously oppressed people - and now the only oppression they face are their neighbors and their stupid religion. We gave them that.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran is next. We are watching students walk in Iran for freedom and liberty - And we'll be there to help them too. Then it's on to North Korea, then China. When that's over it's on to Africa, Saudi Arabia, and shit pits like the Philippines.

We do this because the human race can't move forward, in evolution, while these numbnuts religions and idiots still walk around beating women, murdering others and training 8 year old soldiers.

Forget the oil. Forget the land. Forget the religion if you must - Look what we've done, and how important it is that we continue doing it !
 
Celerity said:
How can people say we're in a lose-lose situation ?! American Deaths ? It's safer to be an American in Baghdad than it is in Detroit !

Costs ? Katrina squandered away more money in fixing up 8 blocks of bars and strip clubs than we could accept in Iraq!

Who cares if it benefits the US. Not even taking into account that it keeps Terrorists out of the US. Don't care. We freed a previously oppressed people - and now the only oppression they face are their neighbors and their stupid religion. We gave them that.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran is next. We are watching students walk in Iran for freedom and liberty - And we'll be there to help them too. Then it's on to North Korea, then China. When that's over it's on to Africa, Saudi Arabia, and shit pits like the Philippines.

We do this because the human race can't move forward, in evolution, while these numbnuts religions and idiots still walk around beating women, murdering others and training 8 year old soldiers.

Forget the oil. Forget the land. Forget the religion if you must - Look what we've done, and how important it is that we continue doing it !
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*Standing Ovation*

there will always be deceivers in DC, because we keep voting them in. Regardless it is never a lost cause to overthrow genocidal dictators and provide the common person worldwide with the opportunity for political freedom. And when we undertake these tasks it is our responsibility as neighbors to ensure we see the job done. Leaving Iraq because we don't want to loose any more soldiers is at this point in time a selfish desire.
 
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So have we actually come to a concensus that this is a religious war? Have we *gasp* AGREED on something?
 
not a religious war because America is mostly Christian and partially everything else. And Israel is Jewish

it's a war based on Ideals

Theirs: Allah should rule the world

Ours: We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL men (that includes those not living in America) are created equal and entitled to certain inalienable rights. Among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
 
Oh yeah, I've said that for a LONG time. It's a religious war, and we need to look at it that way. A religion has declared war on our way of life - and they want Me, Celerity, dead - and They want Sabz dead. And they want alaskans like Klyph dead.

I'll tell you that most of the muslims out there would make a GREAT addition to the future of mankind. Even the loving and loyalty aspects of Islam are right on the money - but the majority of them are all full of hatred and ignorance.
 
Celerity said:
Oh yeah, I've said that for a LONG time. It's a religious war, and we need to look at it that way. A religion has declared war on our way of life - and they want Me, Celerity, dead - and They want Sabz dead. And they want alaskans like Klyph dead.
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that's my point everyone says we need to end the war and leave Iraq but that won't end the war because they are at war with us regardelss of what we do, we must fight, this war was declared on us
 
Well, lemme rephrase. They are shouting for Dhimmitude - which is not necessarily "Kill everyone". They believe that everyone should be Sharia Muslim. Those that aren't serve a great purpose washing dishes, working fields, and getting raped.

I saw Syriana lately - which I meant to tell you folks about. And I did really like that movie. It wasn't anti-american at all. I think it told a great story about how oppressed Muslims are. And I also think, and I may be alone on this, that the movie points out that they are oppressed not because of America, Bush, or anything else that Clooney hates - They are oppressed because of other Muslims.

I always wondered about places like the UAE. It's the richest area on the planet. Yet, they never show who builds this shit, mines the oil fields, or does the manual labor. They import all of their labor from other Muslim countries - make them live in shanty towns in the desert and then kick their ass out when they stop producing. Most of what happens in the Arab / Muslim world is no fault of the US at all - it's just a really shitty way to live.
 
You are so, so wrong. The only groups clamoring for Sharia are funded by and based in places that are our allies (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan). With the exception of possibly Syria (I haven't seen solid documentation of Syrian support of al Qaeda or any other Wahabi group).

There really is a lot of mis-information here and I don't think that I can catch it all in one go.

First, don't confuse Israeli, Zionist, and Jewish. They are distinct terms and distinct groups of people. Zionists support the foundation of Israel regardless of the cost, Israelis are citizens of Israel, and Jews follow the religion brought by Moses. There are people that fit in one, two, or three of these categories, but the categories themselves are not synonymous.

The next is that somewhere someone started using Jewish as a culture or ethnicity (as in the requirements for Israeli citizenship). It isn't an ethnicity, it is a faith and it cannot be passed merely by birth.

Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. Many Arabs that I know make the same mistake as some "Jews" (see above point) in claiming that being Muslim is passed by birth (again not true as above). The biggest problems within Islam today, you have mentioned a few above, are caused mainly by the people that believe in passing Islam by birth. These people are responsible for fusing Arab culture into Islam. The Qur'an does not mandate any of the things mentioned above, they bring pieces of local culture (the subjugation of women, enforcing hijab or veiling, etc.)into the religion and use the religion as a means of enforcing cultural standards. Go to the second Surah (chapter) of the Qur'an and read verse 256. The English translations I have read agree that it clearly states, "There is no compulsion in religion."

I am not trying to enter into this debate, rather to get folks on both sides to try and stay away from the propaganda machine and listen more to the facts of the situation.
 
Nope, not all arabs are muslim. You know how you can tell if an Arab isn't muslim ?

They're dangling by their necks in the town square.
 
See this isn't the case either, until the rise of the Wahabi, people of any religious persuasion had to be treated as equals in a Muslim society. Justice is one of the overarching themes in the Qur'an, it has been perverted to mean supremacy but again, these are cultural influences.

Seriously, quote spouting crap when you cannot back it up.
 
The koran is unchanged though. It's not like there is a King James version.
 
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