Homosexual Marriage "constitutional" in MA

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Originally posted by New2TheCarScene@Nov 19 2003, 11:33 PM
They aren't asking you to watch, they aren't asking you to accept.

They obviously do want acceptance - thats why they want to be married, adopt kids, ect.

IMO, homosexuality is a perversion of the mind and body.


I know the following points have nothing to do with weather HS should be legal or not, but i will say them anyways:

if homosexuals are truly in love with eachother then how come their "relationships" are drastically shorter than herterosexual marrages?

Homosexuals can not produce children, so how do they furthur the prosperity of the human race?
~~Just food for though~~ im not trying to flame anybody.
 
I all I have to say is " :gives: ". For and for all of you damn christians who say that you don't try to push your religion onto others, look at what your doing now, your trying to stop what others are doing because its not what you believe....well guess what, if I have another christian come and tell me I'm going to to hell some some other stupid shit, I am going to smack that fucker....I am sick of everyone sticking their noses where they don't belong.

Before I get flamed on, guess what....I'm doing the same thing you all are, saying what you believe in....and so your welcome to tell me what you think of me, just as I am welcome to tell you what I think of you...

And also I do not hate all christians, just the ones that think they have the right to tell me how to live my life or others....actualy, sorry for picking on you christians its actualy its all people who do this....but just speaking my mind, and this thread is going to be locked in no time. :ph34r:
 
No offence taken, im trying not to sound preechy, i just brought up the issue because i wanted to discuss it in a controlled, nonofensive manner.

BTW, any real chirstian would admit that they are not perfect - we struggle with the same stuff as everybody else, its not like i am free from any of the problems you or others might face. I would hate for you to feel i am jamming "retoric" down your throat, if i seem that way forgive me.
 
well its not even you really, its everyone, because people all over, I'm sure, are up in arms about this topic...people that live in...where ever are screaming about it....I just think let people do what they want to do, its not yours or my say of what they can or can not do....its the gov. and they do a shitty job as it is, but at least we only have to listen to one voice then.
 
Originally posted by Prowler@Nov 19 2003, 08:23 PM
because a county is only strong if it is built on morality. what's next, allowing beastiality?

FUCK! i'm out













































:ph34r:
 
Sin does seperate us from God. i am not condoning what some religious leaders have done in the past, this is a very small minority too.

you are also correct in that your relationship to God is something that should stay between you and Him.

as far as preachers being able to decline any cerimony they don't feel comfortable with, this is true for the most part. except for the homsexuals who feel they are being discriminated against because they are homosexual. and they are asking that pastor's not be allowed to preach homosexuality as sin.

however, they are being discriminated against. if a christian pastor were to marry a homosexual couple, it would go against our beliefs about sin and redemption.

homosexuality is a lifestyle of sin, God will not accept it. A person cannot both claim to be christian and homosexual, they are a contradiction.

You still didn't answer how being married as a sinning homesexual is any different than being married as a sinning fornicator. It's not. Going by what you just said, "sin seperates us from God", being married with any sin on your soul is saying "fuck you" to God...basically being blasphemy. I happen to know quite a few homosexuals who belive in the words of Christ, just like the Bible-belters who fornicate in private and preach in public. This is religious morality, or lack thereof, and not human morality.


ok here is my conclusion (also i have to go take my brother home so this will be my last post on this thread for tonight, thanks to every one who has participated thus far, and i look forward to contiueing this discusion with all of you, incase this thread gets closed while i am gone feel free to e-mail me an i will contiue this conversation with you too):

there is a difference between a "life of Sin," and cursing when you hit your thumb with a hammer. homosexuality falls under the life of sin catergory, so does prostitution, beastiality... basically any sex sin outside of marriage. living the homosexual lifestyle is sin. having rampant sex with women, being monogamous or polygamous is sin too. until a person has repented of these kinds of sin, God doesn't want he/she to get married. he wants us to fix our relationship with him first.
 
As stated before, the christian dilemma (one of many) is that you don’t realize that we are not all christians. True the founding fathers were christians, but most were slave owners as well. If their Condition (it is a condition) of christianity justifies a religious presence in the government, following that logic, slavery should be acceptable as well.
Another problem is that Bible thumpers seem to have a problem understanding is that the marriage homosexuals want is not an institution your religion, but an acknowledgement of status of the state. Many simply seek legal and societal benefits given to heterosexual couples by the government.
Marriage is as a social and economic union between two or more people, the presence of a god is irrelevant. Christians and their fundamentalist brethren are all trying to undermine diversity within the United States through social and legal means (stigma on homosexuality, sodomy laws, reverences to god, etc). Though I am an atheist I can still respect christians, and all that I really ask in return is the same respect that I try and show to them. The "golden rule" Jesus professes is do unto others as you would have done unto you. Keeping that in mind if the positions were reversed would Christians like to be denied the same rights that are held by others?

Of course the issue on morality brings up another set of problems, namely being that no thought goes into what they (christians) believe. Simply put God tells them how to be and that is the end of it. Christians will defend themselves by saying the word of god is the truth. But as time has shown (the crusades, witch trials etc) the "word of god" is simply dictated by whoever is in control of your church at the time. And what really makes things now any different from then. And of course issues of translation from the original text factor into it as well, but il let you guys check that out on your own.

Peace out-side
 
I don't believe in homosexuality.

Not like I don't approve or disaprove of it, I don't believe it exists. It's something that is made up by a community.

I'm not sure what the statistic is, like 1%-10% of people are homosexual... something like that right?
Well 200 ~150 years ago, to the beginning of time.... none, or nearly no amount of people were homosexual.

It's a fad to be gay now.
Just because you're gay, doesn't give you the gene to talk with a fucking lisp... things like that make me believe that it's a hoax.
 
Originally posted by Guy@Nov 21 2003, 07:32 PM
As stated before, the christian dilemma (one of many) is that you don’t realize that we are not all christians. True the founding fathers were christians, but most were slave owners as well. If their Condition (it is a condition) of christianity justifies a religious presence in the government, following that logic, slavery should be acceptable as well.
Another problem is that Bible thumpers seem to have a problem understanding is that the marriage homosexuals want is not an institution your religion, but an acknowledgement of status of the state. Many simply seek legal and societal benefits given to heterosexual couples by the government.
Marriage is as a social and economic union between two or more people, the presence of a god is irrelevant. Christians and their fundamentalist brethren are all trying to undermine diversity within the United States through social and legal means (stigma on homosexuality, sodomy laws, reverences to god, etc). Though I am an atheist I can still respect christians, and all that I really ask in return is the same respect that I try and show to them. The "golden rule" Jesus professes is do unto others as you would have done unto you. Keeping that in mind if the positions were reversed would Christians like to be denied the same rights that are held by others?

Of course the issue on morality brings up another set of problems, namely being that no thought goes into what they (christians) believe. Simply put God tells them how to be and that is the end of it. Christians will defend themselves by saying the word of god is the truth. But as time has shown (the crusades, witch trials etc) the "word of god" is simply dictated by whoever is in control of your church at the time. And what really makes things now any different from then. And of course issues of translation from the original text factor into it as well, but il let you guys check that out on your own.

Peace out-side

So, what if at the end of time it all turns out to be true? what if at the end of time you finally see that there is a God? not trying to force my "religion" or bilbe thumping on you just think about it. don't even respond on this thread if you don't want to, pm me.

hexen: even tho i too think that homosexuality has become a fad in our society (i even put that in a psychology paper) homosexuality has been around a long time. and every society that fell into this sin was destroyed.

as far as homosexual marriage, if you want the rights and privileges of a married couple that is okay, but a marriage in a christian church should not be expected. neither should the censorship of our doctrine and beliefs.

does that mean i can treat you like crap, no. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and to bless those who curse you, and pray for those who hurt you. this is the example that should have been shown for the past 2,000 years.
 
Originally posted by Hexen@Nov 21 2003, 07:44 PM
I don't believe in homosexuality.

Not like I don't approve or disaprove of it, I don't believe it exists. It's something that is made up by a community.

I'm not sure what the statistic is, like 1%-10% of people are homosexual... something like that right?
Well 200 ~150 years ago, to the beginning of time.... none, or nearly no amount of people were homosexual.

It's a fad to be gay now.
Just because you're gay, doesn't give you the gene to talk with a fucking lisp... things like that make me believe that it's a hoax.

if you really think that i invite you to read a book about homosexuality in the animal kingdom called Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. not only that but if you dont think alternate sexualiaty existed beyond 150~200 years ago i really do suggest you do a bit of studying of history (specifically look to rome, greece and japan)
 
Originally posted by saturn_boy96+Nov 21 2003, 07:57 PM-->
So, what if at the end of time it all turns out to be true? what if at the end of time you finally see that there is a God? not trying to force my "religion" or bilbe thumping on you just think about it. don't even respond on this thread if you don't want to, pm me.

hexen: even tho i too think that homosexuality has become a fad in our society (i even put that in a psychology paper) homosexuality has been around a long time. and every society that fell into this sin was destroyed.

as far as homosexual marriage, if you want the rights and privileges of a married couple that is okay, but a marriage in a christian church should not be expected. neither should the censorship of our doctrine and beliefs.

does that mean i can treat you like crap, no. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and to bless those who curse you, and pray for those who hurt you. this is the example that should have been shown for the past 2,000 years.

Your first question is completly ludicrous. what if at the end of time nothing happens? What if you are reincarnated? what if everyone is locked into a room with a transvestite nurse and sodomized with a broken broomstick handle for all of eternity? It doesnt really matter because believing out of fear is the wrong reason to bellieve. Honestly if there your god is what awaits me, and he rejects me for living as good a person as i can, then i would rather spend an eternity without him. You dont need to be a christian to have morals or be a good person.

See, what this is all about is not being able to get married in a christian chuch. To those of you that really believe that what is being fought for is the right to get married in a church all i can tell you is that is not the issue. What these people are working towards is equality, to be viewed, by our government, as equal in status to a heterosexual couple.
saturn_boy96
@Nov 21 2003, 07:57 PM
does that mean i can treat you like crap, no. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and to bless those who curse you, and pray for those who hurt you. this is the example that should have been shown for the past 2,000 years.

If Christians really feel that way how can any of them be pro death penalty? Remeber all what Christians place their belief structure is open to interpretation (i.e. different translations of the bible, there are many more other than the king james version or simply different feelings about what things mean). Not only that but there is obvious confusion between beliefs outlined in the old testament (eye for an eye) and the new one.
And you really need to bear in mind that there is a difference between the censorship of ones doctrines and beliefs, and imposing it on others.
 
Quit bringing the Bible into this--it has been translated so many time, 50% of the things in there are fucked up. Enough of Bible shit, I have no problem with them, I have gay friends, and if I never knew they were gay, it would have no effect on me. You life your lifestyle, they life theirs.

So all you country bumpkin bible-thumpers chanting "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" clean the caked on mud off your truck, put some clothes on your kid, and put down the shotgun.
 
Originally posted by Guy+Nov 21 2003, 08:30 PM-->
Your first question is completly ludicrous. what if at the end of time nothing happens? What if you are reincarnated? what if everyone is locked into a room with a transvestite nurse and sodomized with a broken broomstick handle for all of eternity? It doesnt really matter because believing out of fear is the wrong reason to bellieve. Honestly if there your god is what awaits me, and he rejects me for living as good a person as i can, then i would rather spend an eternity without him. You dont need to be a christian to have morals or be a good person.
can you define what a "good" person actually is?

and to answer my own question, even if at the end of time there is nothing, i would still have rather lived the life i am living, and believe what i am believeing. becasue of God i have a purpose. not one that has been told to me by someone, but one that was written 2,000 years ago. God is not a giant kill-joy as so many of you would like to think.

and even if there is nothing i am still living a blessed life.

Originally posted by Guy@
See, what this is all about is not being able to get married in a christian chuch. To those of you that really believe that what is being fought for is the right to get married in a church all i can tell you is that is not the issue. What these people are working towards is equality, to be viewed, by our government, as equal in status to a heterosexual couple.


what they are working towards is the irradication of "christian" moral doctrine. becasue this doctrine states VERY clearly that homosexuality is a sin.

Guy

does that mean i can treat you like crap, no. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and to bless those who curse you, and pray for those who hurt you. this is the example that should have been shown for the past 2,000 years.

If Christians really feel that way how can any of them be pro death penalty? Remeber all what Christians place their belief structure is open to interpretation (i.e. different translations of the bible, there are many more other than the king james version or simply different feelings about what things mean). Not only that but there is obvious confusion between beliefs outlined in the old testament (eye for an eye) and the new one.
And you really need to bear in mind that there is a difference between the censorship of ones doctrines and beliefs, and imposing it on others.[/QUOTE]

the death penalty has been setup by this country's judiciary system. it was not the christians who decided the punishments. regardless this has nothing to do with the goings on of day to day life, which is what Christ was reffering to.

are you saying that there should be no punishment for crimes committed? God never says that either. it does mean that a christian shoud not be the one committing the crimes, and when someone has committed a crime against you, you should forgive them. forgiveness does not mean no punishment.
 
YOUR ALL GAY GROW THE FUCK UP AND GET OVER IT!
Is it your fucking life NO so shut the fuck uo and leave them alone!


FYI
I ahd a gay friend that had the shit kicked out of him last night and will spend about a week in hospital!


So if youy want to talk shit go say it to someones face not over a comp
 
Originally posted by hcivic.com@Nov 22 2003, 01:58 PM
YOUR ALL GAY GROW THE FUCK UP AND GET OVER IT!
Is it your fucking life NO so shut the fuck uo and leave them alone!


FYI
I ahd a gay friend that had the shit kicked out of him last night and will spend about a week in hospital!


So if youy want to talk shit go say it to someones face not over a comp

im with this guy. they are all human, let them live their lives....
 
Originally posted by Prowler@Nov 19 2003, 09:21 PM
The founding fathers (although very imperfect i.e. Jefferson) said they wanted the country based on morality of the Bible. They claimed to be Christains and that's what thye wanted for the country.

Don't forget that they ALSO condoned slavery. Also, don't forget that only a few years before the Constitution was drafted, our fledgling country condoned and carried out the burning of "witches".

It's not relevant to bring in this discussion what you think the Founding Fathers wanted for our country nearly 250 years ago.

And to the person who said that god didn't create Adamn and Eve, he created Adam and Steve....how do you explain the myriad of people that are gay? They certainly aren't gay "to be cool", as someone above suggested (on a side note, this conjecture is completely hilarious. People are gay to be cool? Because it's a fad? Yeah, let me take it in the ass from other guys, and be ridiculed by a good portion of the general public, and forfeit many rights that are given to heterosexuals. RIGHT. But, I digress). Anyway, if the gay people of the world aren't gay because it's cool to be gay, how else to we explain them? If we believe that people are created by god, then he created homosexuality.

Too bad we can't amend the Bible like we amend our Constitution to account for the relative narrow-mindedness of our predecessors.
 
Originally posted by saturn_boy96+-->
saturn_boy96) said:
can you define what a "good" person actually is?
actually yeah, a person who lives by their morals.
Originally posted by saturn_boy96+-->
saturn_boy96) said:
and to answer my own question, even if at the end of time there is nothing, i would still have rather lived the life i am living, and believe what i am believeing. becasue of God i have a purpose. not one that has been told to me by someone, but one that was written 2,000 years ago. God is not a giant kill-joy as so many of you would like to think.

and even if there is nothing i am still living a blessed life.
You see, a purpose in life is not exclusive to Christians, i have reasons to live as well, one of which is to try and make people who dont think about what they do/say spend a little time pondering it. And in case you missed whats been happening in the past 2,000 years, there have been numerous revisions, omissions and general changes to the bible that are used to suit the current church head's ideology. And its great that you feel you are living well within the confines of your own religion, but what does that have to do with forcing those ideals on others? Christians sure are self centered.
saturn_boy96
@
what they are working towards is the irradication of "christian" moral doctrine. becasue this doctrine states VERY clearly that homosexuality is a sin.

Again with the self centered stuff. The world does not revolve around what you guys think, so stop thinking that it does. What does YOURdoctrine have to do with anyone outside of your religion? If i have a holy book that says it is evil and against our supremly moral agenda to be a christian, does that mean you are going to conform to it?
saturn_boy96

are you saying that there should be no punishment for crimes committed? God never says that either. it does mean that a christian shoud not be the one committing the crimes, and when someone has committed a crime against you, you should forgive them. forgiveness does not mean no punishment.

See, the argument technique you are using here is a fallacy of false dichotomy, which is to say that you believe that the only punishment for something like murder is to kill them or set them free. There are many more options (life imprisonment, rehabilitation, etc.)
Peace out-side
 
Originally posted by Guy+Nov 22 2003, 07:21 PM-->
Originally posted by saturn_boy96+-->
saturn_boy96) said:
can you define what a "good" person actually is?
actually yeah, a person who lives by their morals.





what are morals? where do they come from?

Originally posted by Guy
You see, a purpose in life is not exclusive to Christians, i have reasons to live as well, one of which is to try and make people who dont think about what they do/say spend a little time pondering it.


so what happens, when your dead?

Originally posted by Guy
... in the past 2,000 years, there have been numerous revisions, omissions and general changes to the bible that are used to suit the current church head's ideology...what does that have to do with forcing those ideals on others?


what revisions? when and by whom?

as far as forcing ideal on any one, if you feel that i am doing this i am truly sorry. i am just trying to voice my beliefs, so that maybe somone will see the truth on the other side. take them as you want.

Originally posted by Guy
Originally posted by saturn_boy96

what they are working towards is the irradication of "christian" moral doctrine. becasue this doctrine states VERY clearly that homosexuality is a sin.

... What does YOURdoctrine have to do with anyone outside of your religion? If i have a holy book that says it is evil and against our supremly moral agenda to be a christian, does that mean you are going to conform to it?


homosexual marriage is not the same as heterosexual marriage, simply becasue they are not the same kind of relationship. it has to do with my doctrine, because they are wanting my kind of marriage. a marriage that God has designed.

if you had a holy book would it be fair for me to come to your church and tell you that what your book says is discrimination? that you have to change it to fit my way of life because i don't like to hear that the way i am living is sin. and i don't want you to be able to tell anyone that it is a sin.

what they are fighting is the way marriage is viewed. there is a sanctity of marriage that God has put in place, and the extreme homosexuals are trying to take that sanctity out of it.

Guy
@
saturn_boy96


are you saying that there should be no punishment for crimes committed? God never says that either. it does mean that a christian shoud not be the one committing the crimes, and when someone has committed a crime against you, you should forgive them. forgiveness does not mean no punishment.

See, the argument technique you are using here is a fallacy of false dichotomy, which is to say that you believe that the only punishment for something like murder is to kill them or set them free. There are many more options (life imprisonment, rehabilitation, etc.)
Peace out-side


how so? i said that you are to firgive someone for committing a crime. i never said not to punish them. punishment is part of God's plan, too. and it does not necessarily mean that, as you stated, the only punishment for something like murder is to kill them or set them free. yes there are more options.

and as i said, forgiveness does not mean that a crime will go unpunished.
 
im tired of using the quote things.
Morals are a social contract, created by human thought, that allow us to coexist with others.

what happens when we die? I dont know, but neither do you. you may say that you "feel" that what the bible says is truth, but crazy people also "feel" that they are a reincarnated JFK as well.

as to the revisions, are you telling me that you are unaware that more than one version of the bible exists? seems somewhat foolish to place all your beliefs into something you apperantly dont know much about. here is a short list of bible versions and differences http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html . As for major changes look into what happened to the gnostic teaching, and what Constantine ordered the council of nicaea to do when he chose to unify rome under christianity. for a general story go here: http://www.gnosticchristianity.com/ch4.htm . For a good idea of what im talking about check out why michealangelo's sculpture of moses has horns on it.

"homosexual marriage is not the same as heterosexual marriage, simply becasue they are not the same kind of relationship. it has to do with my doctrine, because they are wanting my kind of marriage. a marriage that God has designed"

Do you honestly think that the concept of marriage is only a christian idea?. The idea of an economic and social union between two more people is almost universal. I really suggest you take an cultural anthropology class and expand your world view.

"what they are fighting is the way marriage is viewed"

Again you are wrong. what they are fighting for are equal rights, in the eyes of the government and legal system. Whether or not you guys feel their marriage is valid or not makes no difference.

as to the punishment thing, by saying " are you saying that there should be no punishment for crimes committed?" you are implying that i dont think crimes should be punished. I clarified my position to you and you still dont seem to get it, so it is lost on you i guess.

My even discussing this with you is a waste of both of our times. You are obviously blinded by your ideology, misconceptions and lack of knowledge on the subject. I honestly hope that in the future you can look at situations similar to this, think of some of the things that i have mentioned here, and apply them throughout your life.
Peace be with you, stop trying to stuff your moral/social ideas down everyone elses mouths, and take it easy
 
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