Homosexual Marriage "constitutional" in MA

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Originally posted by saturn_boy96@Nov 23 2003, 08:01 PM
so what happens, when your dead?

for the most part this can be broken down into 2 basic categories

a: you get put in a box, the box gets put in the ground, you rot over a period of time

b: you get put in a a box, the box gets put in a large blast furnace, you are reduced to ashes, the ashes are then put in a jar, the jar is put on a mantle or emptied out somewhere


some varients could be:
-you are eaten by a large predatory creature, you are then digested, you are then shit out, you are then eaten by micro-organisms, the cycle continues

-you are vaporised in a large explosion

-you are frozen in an avolanche and preserved untill some explorer finds you, then you are thawed out and disected for "research"

-you are eaten alive from the inside out by a flesh eating bacteria

-you are disolved in a vat of acid

-you are mumified and placed in a sarcophagus inside a large palacial tomb, your tomb and sarcophagus are then looted several years later

-the list goes on and on
 
Originally posted by Guy+-->
Guy) said:
Morals are a social contract, created by human thought, that allow us to coexist with others.

no they are not created by human thought. how can this be? did we some how evolve the ability to think? no other "animal" in the world has the ability to think abstractly, they only know what their instincts tell them to know. this is not random.

as to the revisions, are you telling me that you are unaware that more than one version of the bible exists? seems somewhat foolish to place all your beliefs into something you apperantly dont know much about. here is a short list of bible versions and differences http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html . As for major changes look into what happened to the gnostic teaching, and what Constantine ordered the council of nicaea to do when he chose to unify rome under christianity. for a general story go here: http://www.gnosticchristianity.com/ch4.htm . For a good idea of what im talking about check out why michealangelo's sculpture of moses has horns on it.


ok, here's the reason Moses usually has horns in portraits of him: in the torah his face was described as beaming with light. In hebrew all words have a 3 letter root, the only difference is the vowels. But in the torah there are no vowels and since horns and beaming with light share the same root it is easily confused.

and ys of course i know there are other versions of the bible. they were translated to make it easier to read/understand. however i was unaware of all of the mistranslations of words and pasages, however, this does not change the truth of the bible. in every translation it is clear that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Guy+-->
Guy) said:
"homosexual marriage is not the same as heterosexual marriage, simply becasue they are not the same kind of relationship. it has to do with my doctrine, because they are wanting my kind of marriage. a marriage that God has designed"

Do you honestly think that the concept of marriage is only a christian idea?. The idea of an economic and social union between two more people is almost universal. I really suggest you take an cultural anthropology class and expand your world view.

no, i know it is not. it is pat of the morality that God has placed in all of us. a morality that says lying is wrong, cheating on your spouse is wrong, stealing is wrong... these are all concepts that are true in every civilization. do you think that is chance that all people have the same basic moral principle?

Originally posted by Guy
Again you are wrong. what they are fighting for are equal rights, in the eyes of the government and legal system. Whether or not you guys feel their marriage is valid or not makes no difference.


if this were true, then why is it that their fight for equal rights begins with the christian church and christian theology?

Guy
@
as to the punishment thing, by saying " are you saying that there should be no punishment for crimes committed?" you are implying that i dont think crimes should be punished. I clarified my position to you and you still dont seem to get it, so it is lost on you i guess.


no , i meant it as a rhetorical question. meaning that i knew you were not saying that crimes should be unpunished.

Guy

My even discussing this with you is a waste of both of our times. You are obviously blinded by your ideology, misconceptions and lack of knowledge on the subject. I honestly hope that in the future you can look at situations similar to this, think of some of the things that i have mentioned here, and apply them throughout your life.


if you feel that i am trying to cram my ideology down your throat i am truly sorry, but i would like to continue this discussion further. so if you would like to respond, then we can continue to voice our ideology as a represntation of our beliefs, and not an argument.
 
Originally posted by Hexen@Nov 21 2003, 07:44 PM
It's a fad to be gay now.
Just because you're gay, doesn't give you the gene to talk with a fucking lisp... things like that make me believe that it's a hoax.

SO, you are saying that its a persons choice to be gay? Like, its a persons choice to surpress their natural sexual influences and act in a "homosexual" manner?
 
"no they are not created by human thought. how can this be? did we some how evolve the ability to think? no other "animal" in the world has the ability to think abstractly, they only know what their instincts tell them to know. this is not random."
If you are unaware of the difference in complexity in the human brain as compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, then you really need to get a look at people outside of your church. In addition to that can you or anyone else prove beyond the shadow of a doubt the ability or lack of ability of "lesser" animals to think in abstract terms?

The sculpture thing is simply to illustrate the fact that the bible is not static, and changes. Did you even bother to look into the gnostic gospels? The council of Nicaea is the one that created your bible, and in doing so attempted to destroy all of the others teachings of jesus (gnostic gospels, dead sea scrolls etc). Wernt those the words of god too? The simple inclusion of these other works would have drastically changed what your religion would eventually become. And by the way this decision was made not by anyone divine, but by the Emperor of rome to be able to keep his subjects under control, as the two aspects of Jesus' teachings would probably split the country. Look into it, you will learn a lot about jeses' conflicting teachings.

"a morality that says lying is wrong, cheating on your spouse is wrong, stealing is wrong... these are all concepts that are true in every civilization. do you think that is chance that all people have the same basic moral principle?"
You cant make lying or stealing a universal maxim. To use a classic example, put yourself in Nazi germany. You are hiding Jews in your basement because you are aware of what happens to them if they are caught. An SS officer knocks on your door and asks if there are any Jews in your house. Now according to these universal ideas that your god has made (funny thing is that even in non christian cultures most of the basic rules are the same) you would be committing a great wrong if you were to lie to save the lives of the people you are keeping safe. Are you ok with that? What if you are in a foreign country and incapable of getting any sort of work, would it be wrong to steal to feed your starving wife and kids?

"if this were true, then why is it that their fight for equal rights begins with the christian church and christian theology?"

um... where else are they supposed to start? its not their fault that you guys have your knickers in a bunch about the subject. I mean its not like they are spraypainting the walls of your church with gay porn stories. If you guys wernt so self centered you might realize that your position subject has no bearing on what they are trying to accomplish.

"if you feel that i am trying to cram my ideology down your throat i am truly sorry"
If you arnt trying to put your ideology on the rest of us with this, i dont know what is. The views of your church should be neither here not there when it comes to the equal rights of these human beings. During segregationalist times Christians used the bible to condone that as well. Doesnt this seem to be sort of the same thing?

and just for shits and giggles why dont you get me the passages that speak against homosexuallity specifically. Use the King James version as neither the New world testament nor Uncle bobs backyard translation of the bible dont count.
 
lets keep this non-religious because we have been asked to:

Originally posted by Guy+-->
Guy) said:
Originally posted by saturn_boy96+-->
saturn_boy96) said:
no they are not created by human thought. how can this be? did we some how evolve the ability to think? no other "animal" in the world has the ability to think abstractly, they only know what their instincts tell them to know. this is not random."
If you are unaware of the difference in complexity in the human brain as compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, then you really need to get a look at people outside of your church. In addition to that can you or anyone else prove beyond the shadow of a doubt the ability or lack of ability of "lesser" animals to think in abstract terms?


i am fully aware of the complexity of the human brain. i am actually proclaiming it. We know that animals do not have the ability to think abstractly or in a simpler term to even think in terms of Why. We know this because we have observed them for more than 5,000 years and animals have always acted on instinct.

Originally posted by Guy
The sculpture thing is simply to illustrate the fact that the bible is not static, and changes. Did you even bother to look into the gnostic gospels?


yes i did look at the gnostic gospels. they are a watered down politcaly correct version of the truth. this makes them an untruth. because truth is not PC. who wants to hear that what they are doing is sin, especially when it is something they like doing and feel like they should do it because it feels good to them?

Originally posted by Guy
saturn_boy96
@
"a morality that says lying is wrong, cheating on your spouse is wrong, stealing is wrong... these are all concepts that are true in every civilization. do you think that is chance that all people have the same basic moral principle?"

You cant make lying or stealing a universal maxim...(funny thing is that even in non christian cultures most of the basic rules are the same)


that is exactly what i am saying. basic rules in ALL cultures are the same. Rules for lying, cheating, stealing, murder, adultery... all cultures find these to be "sins." this is because God created all of us and in all of us there is a design for good.

Guy

If you guys wernt so self centered you might realize that your position subject has no bearing on what they are trying to accomplish.


in your argument, who is being more self centered? the cristians who's very basic belief system is being targeted for change, or the homosexual? the christians are not trying to make the homosexual become a christian, but the homosexual is trying to make the christian change their doctrine to say, what was once determined by God to be sin, is no longer sin.
 
"i am fully aware of the complexity of the human brain. i am actually proclaiming it. We know that animals do not have the ability to think abstractly or in a simpler term to even think in terms of Why. We know this because we have observed them for more than 5,000 years and animals have always acted on instinct.

To use a cliched example to address the issue of instinct, take the dog that will save a child at risk to itself. Or cats that will nurse rabbits or even rats.

Im not quite sure how you get the notion of the gospels as being a watered down or pc version of the bible, but ill give you a quote to illustrate the differences between the two.
"He saw the creation beneath him, and the multitude of angels beneath him, who came into existance out of him, and he said unto them 'I am a jealous God; there is no other god beside me'- already indicating to the angels beneath him that another god does exist. For if there were no other, of whom would he be jealous? The mother then began to be 'bourne about' because she regocnised her deficiency. Because her consort had no agreed with her she had diminished in her perfection" "The Secret Book of John" The Other Bible Ed. Willis Barnstone.

The point is to really just show that not all that was originally christianity is included in the bible today. The bible is in effect a picked through and polished collection of the teachings of jesus and those who preceded him.

"that is exactly what i am saying. basic rules in ALL cultures are the same. Rules for lying, cheating, stealing, murder, adultery... all cultures find these to be "sins." this is because God created all of us and in all of us there is a design for good"

If what you are saying is true how do you explain cultural practices like infanticide? Inuit and Chinese are two among many. As to "cheating" what say you to the tibetan practice of fraternal polyandry? There are plenty of Native North American tribes that did not have any connections with sex and moral values. As to pre-marital sex look at samoan culture and what they think. And i dont think head hunters or cannibals have much of a problem with killing other people. the things you describe as "morals" are so common because they are what is necessary for all of us to survive with eachother. Saying that we all share these common ideas is the result of the will of god is making a huge jump in logic. We all have to eat too, but that doesnt imply that it is part of some grand design put into place by a deity. I also notice that you decided to neglect to mention anything about lying to save an "innocent" life.

"who is being more self centered? the cristians who's very basic belief system is being targeted for change, or the homosexual? the christians are not trying to make the homosexual become a christian, but the homosexual is trying to make the christian change their doctrine to say, what was once determined by God to be sin, is no longer sin."

Again you are missing what the point of all of this is. What is sought is not a change in your religious doctrine, or for you to accept their behavior as correct. What is sought is a change in the legal system in the united states of america, where we are promised freedom from religion. Im going to repeat myself for emphasis, your christian belief system is not targeted for change, the desired change is in the legal system of the united states.
 
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