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I just bought a new car...help please!

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by jeffbaginski, Jun 11, 2008.

  1. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    Hi, this is my first thread on hondaswap.com...I really like the community, and i appreciate the way that people are willing to help the less-experienced, like me...

    anyway, I just bought a 92 civic cx hatch with a JDM B16A...it's got quite an extensive mod list for only paying 3200 for it! I'm looking to turbo it when I can afford it later and when gas prices drop, but for now I'm looking to optimize it without losing gas mileage that bad...here's what it has...

    AEM short ram intake
    DC Headers
    Apexi catback
    AEM fuel pressure regulator
    Fidanza aluminum flywheel
    Exedy Stage 3 clutch
    Fidanza cam gears with skunk2 cams

    Now, i'm not asking for anyone to hold my hand and tell me what to buy, but I need some advice as to what i need to make some streetable power...the mounts are being replaced along with a new exedy stage 1 clutch this weekend...i intend to hold onto the stage 3 for a boost project when cost allows....luckily, i'm living in birmingham alabama, right next to a shop called Motorvations...Jim, the owner, is a godsend...
    Anyway, in terms of power, i was thinking that i would buy a good intake manifold...only problem is, i've heard that the stock one is as good as it gets in terms of power...if this is false, someone suggest a good manifold for mid-high rpm power...also, i want to take this beast on the dyno to tune the air and fuel, as well as ignition timing...can someone that has used hondata s200 tell me what they think about it in terms of how good it is for my application?

    i really appreciate all the help i can get...^_^
     
  2. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Hey, welcome to the site.

    First off, if you plan on going turbo later and want to save some money just get an ECU chipped for CROME. Its a free tuning program and most tuners are familiar with it.

    As for the intake manifold, a Skunk2 manifold would be a good choice from what I have heard.
     
  3. LS_VTEC

    LS_VTEC you get the BRAKE

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  4. philyphreak2127

    philyphreak2127 Back in the Game

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    To be honest if you are going to go turbo I would personally say save the money you would spend on an intake manifold and buy yourself some turbo cams, get your head port and pollished, titanium valve train, and some arp head studs. I would do the pnp, and arp head studs but just save the cams, and valve train along with that stage 3 clutch for the boost build. But I have heard throttle body spacers can add a little power but help gas mileage a quite a bit. I wouldn't normally throw something like that out there but my manager just bought a throttle body spacer for his 03 chevy truck and put it on and it added like 4 mpg. So if you think about it something like that will pay for itself quick.
     
  5. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    my ecu is chipped, but it can't be changed with a computer unless it is completely reprogrammed...and i don't know enough about programming to change it...now, if i remove my chip, the system will have to be easily changed via usb connection...my chip is programmed with a vtec engagement of 5000rpm...
    also, thanks for the advice for the skunk2...

    the only hesitancy i have towards buying turbo parts for it is that i don't want a whole lot of parts sitting around until i can afford to boost...in order for me to boost, i'd need to get it tuned and running stout...i won't allow there to be any margin of error, because frankly, that's how motors get destroyed...so, that would add the cost of injectors and a fuel pump to get enough gas...also, the dyno time and the cost of the kit in general...i mean, if there are enough mods i can do in the meantime, i'm gonna jump on them...i want to buy the manifold and tune the motor for good economy and speed...
    also, what other parts could i add power with? i was thinking that a valvetrain upgrade would one day be needed...what are your opinions?:(
     
  6. philyphreak2127

    philyphreak2127 Back in the Game

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    definately do the valvetrain, you could go for a throttle body which you might as well if your gonna upgrade the intake manifold, port and pollish, 3 angle valve job, and maybe an aftermarket radiator, oil catch can, I mean really you could go on for days about what you could do. How much power do you want to push? also a cheaper way to get more power from the intake manifold you have would be to port match it to your head.
     
  7. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    i want as much power as possible on 93 octane without having to fill up more than once a week...what size throttle body should i go for? also, can anybody recommend a good valvetrain package for the money? i don't want shit, but i don't want to break the bank because i want to save for a turbo...i just want a stout motor for boost...
     
  8. |Chaz|

    |Chaz| Well-Known Member VIP

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    How many miles do you plan on driving in a week...?
     
  9. carlitoswaypr

    carlitoswaypr New Member

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    gas price will never drop...
     
  10. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    somewhere around 400-500 miles a week...i get 32 mpg and it costs me 33 dollars to fill up from a bone-dry tank...the cost of gas for me right now is not an issue in terms of being able to afford...the only thing is, i want a stout motor that can get me to work and get me around without having to buy octane booster or have it break down on me or be unreliable...this is why i want to play it safe, because i have no other cars to drive if it breaks down and getting to work is a necessity...if there is uncertainty as to whether or not my motor can hold certain boost levels, i don't want to take a risk...i want to play it safe and just take it step-by-step...reliability is my top priority, but cost is not an issue because i won't cheap out on key components...

    anyway, is porting expensive? does a 3 angle valve job reduce reliability? these are things i need to know before i decide what to do...it has to be low-risk for me to do it:)

    hopefully, gas will one day be the uncommon and therefore cheaper fuel...god, everyone please buy a prius and save us tuners money!!!instead of those crappy hummers and dodge srt-10s...
     
  11. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    Whoa whoa, hang on just a second here.

    First off, an intake manifold is not a bad upgrade if you plan on going turbo later. The better the airflow to the head, the more power you will make.

    Now, as far as valvetrain, thats not a necessity. You can boost on stock valvetrain very easily. Just do not change the rev limiter.

    If you're looking to get better gas mileage than you already do now, you probably won't do it with a turbo setup. You won't be able to keep your foot out of it.

    PnP (Port and Polish) can cost you anywhere from $0 - $1,500. It all depends on whom you know, and how well you know them. I've never heard of a valve job decreasing reliability, unless it is done incorrectly.

    Bottom line is, if you want to increase gas mileage, stay away from the turbo and don't touch the internals. Get the necessities, and get that bitch tuned for economy.
     
  12. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    well, i'm not an old grandma that only cares about economy, nor do i honestly believe that any worthwhile performance mod will increase economy...that's not what i'm here for...i just want a stout motor that is safe to boost for power and fun to drive, all the while, i don't want a mpg of a delivery truck...just something that is fast and cheap to keep running...i just don't want to put in crap parts that'll break and i don't want to take risks when it comes to boost...
    anyway, i found a skunk2 valvetrain package for 529 with retainers, springs, and valves...anyone have any experience with them? should i get the stock rated ones or the high compression ones? here's the link...
    Lightning Motorsports - Skunk2 B-Series VTEC Valvetrain Package - FREE SHIPPING ! -
     
  13. Matts96HB

    Matts96HB . Moderator VIP

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    I'd get the stock rated ones.

    B16's already have high enough compression and you won't want to push that any further if you plan on turbocharging.

    Also, if you want a reliable engine the only way to truly get that is to go through it and replace bearings, pistons, rods, rod bolts, main bolts, head studs, gaskets, oil pump, water pump, etc. You'll want to do the full engine overhaul for the best reliability.

    Or you can keep the power down, boost on stock internals at a safe level and hope that bitch doesn't blow. Your choice.
     
  14. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    cool, i'll probably ask jim what i should do in terms of reliable boost...i really appreciate the help...i'll continue to ask questions as needed, but i feel on the right page now...
    oh, do pistons and rods increase power, or is it just the same power with stronger reliability?
     
  15. philyphreak2127

    philyphreak2127 Back in the Game

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    I have heard skunk2 valvetrain products aren't that great. ask blanco on that one. he recomended ferrera or crower to me.
     
  16. YBLEGAL

    YBLEGAL Regular Member w/ Cheese

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    Forged pistons and rods will increase the reliability and be marginally the same performance at stock specs. As Matt stated above, you'll want to steer clear of increased compression since you plan on going turbo. You'll want to do reading for a thurough understanding on the roll of compression in a combustion engine, and a great article to start with would be "Static vs. Effective Compression" in the reference materials. For the most part, you can boost on 10.4:1, and will have a more streetable powerband due to the ability to make a little more power off boost.

    As far as cams go, you'll want to wait till you can drop a chunk of change on head work and other supporting mods. Unless this car can just sit, because, as you might imagine, turbo cams would run like crap with a naturally aspirated motor.

    And the same goes for most mods. Your best bet is to save up all the money required for the parts to 'go turbo', like all the internals, headwork, cams, piping, tuning, all at one time in one session.

    I've got a Hondata s200. Don't be so quick to jump on Crome. It's nice to have a datalogging application to diagnose things and keep an eye on stuff. And if you want Crome's datalogging (Crome pro), it costs more than Hondata. But at this point in product life, the s200 is outdated. The s300 unit replaces the s200 and is widely hailed as a much easier tuning solution. If your not interested in the datalogging, using Crome would be good, just double check that your tuner is familiar with it first.

    If your itchin for upgrades now, consider suspension and brakes.

    You really can't do much to your motor N/A without spending lots of money to get more power. If you want to try different cams maybe, depending on how much cash you can play around with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  17. awptickes

    awptickes unimpressed by you VIP

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    Don't make the same mistake I made.

    Don't start collecting parts, then decide that you don't want to go turbo.

    Do save all the money you need to do whatever it is that you want, then decide how you want to spend it. To do a good streetable turbo, all inclusive, figure about 6 grand. Also keep in mind that this car will not be worth 3200 after you get done dumping all that money into it. If you get rid of it next month, expect to get 3k. Im' not trying to piss on your dreams and asperations, but that's just the way things are. I learned it the hard way. Expect every mod you put on the car to cost you money, don't expect to get it back when you sell the car, you never will.

    If you drive 400-500 miles a week, you'll hate yourself if you do this wrong. You'll never have a reliable car. The best advice anyone gave me was to get a second car that you don't touch, then do your mods to the first one, the one you care about. Use the secondary one for when you fuck something up. It's saved my ass a couple times.

    When/if you do turbo, rebuild the whole engine, head and all. Upgrade the valvetrain, use forged internals, everything. Congrats on joining HS, and I hope you enjoy your stay.
     
  18. jeffbaginski

    jeffbaginski New Member

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    okay, that makes sense about hondata...i can't afford to sell this car or buy a new one, i literally just got it 2 weeks ago...i also don't expect to get all the money i put in it back, because i bought the car for 3200, and frankly, the car would be worth it even if it was a stripped body with no seats and dash...the motor cost my friend chris 2600 shipped, the car was bought fully functional with a good interior...i got a steal, especially considering the mod list...

    now, as for rebuilding, i've heard that the stock internals can handle up to 8psi of boost...now, if i buy the key component for boost, the turbo kit, if i could bolt it up and run it on low boost for a while i wouldn't mind...but if it is a risk to boost stock internals please tell me...i just don't want an abundance of parts sitting around and suddenly change my mind about what to do...i'll probably rebuild with turbo cams and forged turbo pistons, as well as the fuel pump and injectors... intake manifold, valvetrain, and tuning with hondata will be my goals for now...hondata s300 should do what i need, even with a turbo...i'll eventually save for a kit and be a-okay...
    i already have some omnipower coilovers and brembo crossdrilled/slotted rotors...
    i'm doing mundane stuff like headlights and taillights in the meantime and i'm gonna get it painted top secret gold...
     
  19. YBLEGAL

    YBLEGAL Regular Member w/ Cheese

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    Well step back as some of your plans require more reading, and I bet will change.

    Like, asking about 8psi. PSI is relative to the size of the turbo. 8psi on a small turbo may flow 180cfm while 8psi on a large turbo might flow 400cfm. Huge difference. So do some reading on this subject before someone grills you too bad. Generally speaking, a stock B16A can hold 200-250whp reliably, no matter the amount of boost to get you there.

    Don't worry about buying a kit. Piecing together your turbo parts can be much more rewarding, for your wallet, and for performance. Buying each part specificly for the needs of your application is usually considered the best route.

    Blank rotors are fine. Crossdrilled and slotted are ment for old cars with asbestos pads that needed to vent vapors created during braking. Contrary to popular belief, blank rotors will cool faster because they literally have more surface area than drilled. And slotted will eat brake pads.

    Paint jobs are fun. Consider doing it with the engine removed.

    So do you have a second car or is this your primary commuter?
     
  20. awptickes

    awptickes unimpressed by you VIP

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    Crossdrilled and slotted rotors are horrid. You'll spend 5 to 10 times as much on new brake pads if you install them. Don't use those rotors unless you have a track car, and really need them.

    Now, follow YBLEGAL's advice, it's excelent, and I wish I could rep him, but aparently I've done that too much already. heh.

    Turbos: Don't buy a kit. Srsly. They cost too much, and you won't really know what's going on with your car.

    If you want something to 'hold you over', as against this as I am..... Get the s300. Go ahead and buy the hondata ecu, and learn how to tune it. The more familier you are with the tuning software yourself, the less it'll cost you in the long run for tuning. (It only took me 3 months to learn how to use mine.) Don't waste money on an exhaust system if you're planning on going turbo. Don't waste money on an intake. Do, however learn every inch of your car right now. Become so familier with it that you won't need to use the manual to do anything. (Note: this doesn't mean that you shouldn't use a manual, even the best can't remember every single torque number.)

    Read, read, read, read. Make sure you really want to turbo. Don't flake out halfway, although, this is how you'll get most of your parts for cheap.

    I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you stick around, you're one of the more knowlegable newbies we've had recently.
     
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