Light Flywheel= Loss Of Torque

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Clutchmasters makes a damn fine flywheel, 8.5 lbs.

If you're looking to stay OEM or don't want something that light, you could get yourself an ITR flywheel. I'm not sure on the weight.
 
i just bought an act prolite 8.8 lb chromoly flywheel. i paid a little more but from what i hear, you may have problems with aluminum flywheels after a while. i'm installing it in a few weeks and i'll post pics and results then.
 
ive got the Toda flywheel on my car now ... its a very HIGH quality part :thumbsup:
 
It is definitely a change between a stock and lightened flywheel. Almost everyone who has ever driven my car has stalled it at first. It's an adjustment. I have one of the dreaded shaved flywheels from sohfast and it weighs in at 9 lbs. I haven't had any problems with it, (about two years old now) but I kept my stock one just in case.
 
Chromoly flywheel = good

Clutchmasters = Fidanza on the flywheel, and the friction surface is rebuildable... and not aluminum I don't think. I've got one, and I love it.

8 pounds or so is a great weight for an all motor build.
 
Just so i can get this off my chest, buying a lighter flywheel/lightening your original one doesnt add any hp or torque and it doesnt make you lose either it does help acceleration and it will make your car bog more at lower rpms but that is about it.
 
Thanks Calesta, you cleared up a lot of questions that I didn't even think to ask. However, I now have 2 things that I'd like you to look at for me:

1) I see how a light flywheel can increase power through the loss of weight, but how much power are we talking here? I mean, assuming you're accelerating, you've got to rotate the pistons, rods, crank, valvetrain, flywheel, clutch, transmission, axles, brakes, hubs, wheels, tires, etc. Now I know that the pre-transmission components move faster so their weight counts more, but it still seems insignificant.

2) A lot of people use dyno tests to prove the horsepower/torque gains from their flywheel, but I think I see a flaw in this: While on the dyno, the engine doesn't have to move the car, just the dyno drum. If you lighten your rotational mass, won't this increase effective torque/horsepower on the dyno for the sole reason that the engine has to rotate less mass, and won't this effect be greatly lessened when the car has to be moved by the engine? After all, rotating or not, the engine still has to move 2300lbs of car.

I will subscribe to the fact that you'll go faster with a lightened flywheel, but is it enough to spend a few hundred on?

Sorry if any of this sounds stupid, I think I've just confused myself by thinking about it too much.
 
1. Yes, you still have to move the rest of the rotating parts in the car... that's why we try to buy things like lighter pistons, lighter rods, lower loss transmission components, and lighter wheels/tires/brakes. You try to gain every little bit where you can. I really don't know how much more power a lighter flywheel would free up, but you could do the math figuring in a reduction in rotational intertia from the loss of a few pounds on a rotating disc. I don't really want to sit down and do the calculations right now, not for this thread. The main advantage I get isn't in faster acceleration of the car- it's drivability on the track. My engine revs up and down faster now, so I can rev it up faster when I'm at the line waiting for an instant green at the track, or I can shift faster on the road course without worrying about the heavy flywheel jerking me around when I engage the clutch. I personally couldn't tell much when I put my new flywheel in, but I get used to changes in driving dynamics so quickly that it doesn't matter. I also changed a lot more than just the flywheel when it went in, so it was hard for me to judge what stemmed from the flywheel change and what didn't. By the way- lighter components don't really add power- they just reduce the amount of losses through your drivetrain. Your engine isn't making any more power than before... more power is just making it to the wheels than before. You're not making more power- you're just losing less of it. Just a technicality...

2. The drums on a standard Dynojet dynamometer are set to simulate a 3000 pound car at default, I think... so when your Honda is tied down onto one, it's actually trying to move more mass than it does on the street. I could be wrong on the preset mass simulation with the rollers, but I think that's the right number. You're not moving 2300 pounds of car anymore- when you're on the dyno, the engine is trying to move 3000 pounds of simulated car. The power increase at the wheels that you measure are pretty close to what you would feel in the car.

As a side note, it's hard to correctly tune a car to 100% on a chassis dyno with fixed rotational inertia on the rollers. If you're not simulating the proper mass with the rollers, you end up tuning for the wrong air/fuel ratio. Rollers set to a simulate a weight/mass heavier than the car strapped onto them will make the engine pull a higher load than it would on the street, and lighter rollers will do the same thing- just in the opposite direction. The best way to dyno tune a car is to use a dyno with adjustable roller mass or adjustable weight placement in those rollers to change the rotational inertia and simulate the proper weight of the car for the engine to pull against. If this isn't available, you can tune to the best power on a fixed weight roller dyno, find out what air/fuel ratios your engine makes the best power at for each given rev band, then take it out on the street with a wideband sensor and tune it again to the max power a/f ratios. This way you're tuned for max power pulling against the exact right load, and you'll get the best performance. On the other hand, tuning against 3000 pounds of simulated resistance really wouldn't be that bad in our Hondas anyway, since you probably weigh about 2700 pounds total on the street, and then you have to deal with wind resistance too, and maybe a few heavy things in your trunk. 3000 pounds is close enough for me.

:lol:
 
I heard that as a good rule of thumb is that 1lb off of your flywheel is like 10 lbs off anyother part of your car... ive never bothered to test this theory so i have no basis for it though. But like i said earlier it will not give you any hp gain or torque loss im positive about that. You will notice it in the seat of the pants feeling though it will make you accelerate faster and at low rpms it will make your engine bog more bue no power gain no torque loss.
 
If you look at dyno numbers before and after a lightweight flywheel install, you'll most likely see a power gain afterward since, as Calesta said, you'll be freeing up mass that the engine doesn't have to rotate. How would this not free up power?
 
I see, thanks again, Calesta. And dohcvtec_accord: I was just confused about the weight of the dyno drum in respect to the weight of the car. I was also thinking about power in the sense of making more of it, as opposed to losing less of it, as Calesta said. Thanks again.
 
Originally posted by tdehnel@Apr 9 2003, 08:57 AM
I see, thanks again, Calesta. And dohcvtec_accord: I was just confused about the weight of the dyno drum in respect to the weight of the car. I was also thinking about power in the sense of making more of it, as opposed to losing less of it, as Calesta said. Thanks again.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Intelligent questions will always be rewarded with in depth answers. :)
 
:thumbsup: for a very informative thread.


Im sure with calculus you could figure out the best possible compromise between the rotational momentum of the flywheel vs. the freed up power at higher RPMS. there are graphs for everything :)
 
OMG that was a lot to take in but I think I got it.

But just one question, if a lightened flywheel allows the car to accelerate quicker wouldn't that free up torque (since torque is what makes you move from a standstill and horsepower is what keeps you there as I understand it) not Horspower as stated earlier? If anything, wouldnt you lose horsepower (by my definition) because the "freed" horsepower by the heavy stock flywheel (because a heavier flywheel has more momentum thus making it easier to keep it spinning at the same pace) is now "locked down" because the lightened flywheel is harder to keep turning at the same pace (but at the same time your "freeing" torque, its a trade off). Sorry if that was confusing, Am I confused? I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible.

Thanks in advance

Joel
 
Originally posted by liquid00meth@Apr 9 2003, 08:38 PM
:thumbsup: for a very informative thread.


Im sure with calculus you could figure out the best possible compromise between the rotational momentum of the flywheel vs. the freed up power at higher RPMS. there are graphs for everything :)

Thanks. :)

You don't need calculus to figure that stuff out- just balance out your force and momentum equations. It's simple kinematics. :lol:
 
Originally posted by unsivil_audio@Apr 10 2003, 03:51 PM
OMG that was a lot to take in but I think I got it.

But just one question, if a lightened flywheel allows the car to accelerate quicker wouldn't that free up torque (since torque is what makes you move from a standstill and horsepower is what keeps you there as I understand it) not Horspower as stated earlier? If anything, wouldnt you lose horsepower (by my definition) because the "freed" horsepower by the heavy stock flywheel (because a heavier flywheel has more momentum thus making it easier to keep it spinning at the same pace) is now "locked down" because the lightened flywheel is harder to keep turning at the same pace (but at the same time your "freeing" torque, its a trade off). Sorry if that was confusing, Am I confused? I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible.

Thanks in advance

Joel

Yes and no. Think of it this way. Your flywheel is a giant capacitor for your engine- effectively an energy storage medium for your drivetrain. You have "fill up" the flywheel with energy before you can apply it somewhere else... so larger flywheels induce a "lag" to your acceleration. Once you have the flywheel "filled up" with energy, you can start to move power through it to the rest of your drivetrain. On the same note, you have to "drain" the flywheel of energy before you can start slowing down your engine and car. With a heavier flywheel, you have more energy in the system at maximum so you will be able to maintain a high speed more easily (more momentum) but you're not transferring any additional power through the drivetrain to make you go faster.

Visualize this:

Water input ----------_____---------- water output

You have a water dumping out on the ground. It's going down a hill. Halfway through that ramp, you have a ditch. The ramp continues on to bottom of the hill where measure the water flow.

When you have a heavy flywheel, your water goes down the hill, flows into the ditch until the ditch is full, then continues on down the ramp. You have to fill the ditch for water to flow over it, and you have to empty the ditch of water before you consider the flow finished. When you have to fill the ditch and empty it, it takes more time for the water flow to travel the distance- but then again, if you shut off the water at the top of the hill, you still have water in the ditch to supply the bottom of the hill. Your flywheel does this same thing with stored energy- it makes sure your drivetrain still has energy to operate with, so it makes the car easier to drive.

When you have a light flywheel, the ditch is smaller, or gone altogether. ----------__----------

You have less to fill, and less to empty. Your water flow at the bottom of the hill (your wheels) is still the same, but your response time is much better. You don't have to wait as long for the ditch to fill with water before you start getting water at the bottom of the hill. At the same time, you don't have to wait for the ditch to empty as long when you shut the water off. This is good for quick engine response in racing, but not good if you don't like paying attention to the gas pedal while you're driving. Your speeds will drop much faster when you let off the gas on a lighter flywheel car, because you have less water in the ditch left to power the bottom of the hill.

With either size ditch (or weight of flywheel)- you're still getting the same amount of flow at the bottom of the hill, so the same amount of force is ultimately transferred to your wheels. The time (and speed with which) you're able to apply it over is just changed.

Quick note:

Torque = force
Horsepower = power
Power = application of force over time

So... the faster you apply your force, the more power you have. The lighter flywheel gives you more horsepower (actually makes you lose less) because you're able to apply your torque at a faster rate.

Does that analogy help any?
 
Adding a lighter flywheel does not add any hp (if it does it is very minimal no where near it feels) at all it does help out acceleration tho .... lets just say for instance you have a rwd car and you have lets say 3.31 gears in the rear end and you put 4.11 gears in there you gain acceleration but you dont gain any hp.... you def get a huge gain in acceleration tho.
 
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